Why Condi Rice had to lie, to evade, to avoid testifying under oath in the 9/11 hearings.

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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
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the point is not if they could have stopped it or not, the point is they were being warned, pleaded with and still they didn't even try. the warnings over the summer reached a peak, yet they couldn't have cared less. and now, now they have run on a platform that they are strong on terrorism, they were anything but strong on terrorism before 9/11. the fact was even clinton was far stronger on terrorism then bush and co. terrorism was clintons thing, and well, anything clinton did musta been wrong in their eyes, so operation ignore commenced.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: digitalsm
You are fully aware Condi Rice testified under oath before the 9/11 commission back last month, for 4 hours. Richard Clarke did too for 15 hours, so did everyone else that has testified in public hearins. The meat and potatoes of the investigation was/is being done behind closed doors. The past two days were dog and pony shows.
You are mistaken. Rice did NOT testify under oath. She continues to refuse to testify under oath. She now wants to go back before the 9/11 Commission -- in private, of course -- to smear Clar ...err... to refute comments made by Clarke. She steadfastly refuses do so under oath, however.

It was really funny watching one of the Bush shills defend this tonight. Rice and the other Bush cabinet members do not need to be under oath, he sniffed, because they are already bound to tell the truth by their offices. What a load!

If Condi intended to tell the truth, she'd have no reason to resist testifying under oath. She won't because she intends to lie, plain and simple. The sad part is the Bush fan boys will swallow this hook, line, and stinker, indignantly parroting these absurd excuses as if they were reasonable.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: digitalsm
You are fully aware Condi Rice testified under oath before the 9/11 commission back last month, for 4 hours. Richard Clarke did too for 15 hours, so did everyone else that has testified in public hearins. The meat and potatoes of the investigation was/is being done behind closed doors. The past two days were dog and pony shows.

I think the families of the 9/11 attacks have the RIGHT to face the woman who was possibly responsible for their family's deaths.

I think the hijackers were responsible for thier family members deaths. Don't forget that.

Culpability is not limited to the criminals physically involved in the act.

In our society Culpability is limited to those that commit an actual crime, or those
responsible for the person.

Pre-emption of crime is a fairly new concept, dating back to a
a bit before columbine. Very few laws on the book dealing
with intervention, because 1st adm rights usually win the debates.

Very tricky subject to think about.

Back to Rice

Rice does share a burden in failing to prevent a crime, as does
every person that participates in the political system
that governs our society. We are afterall a sum of our parts
not the otherway around.


Like Oroo Oroo, I believe she will be judged,
but not quite yet.
I need to know more...
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
To say that shes in serious serious doo doo is an big understatement. She flat out lied, and whats worse is shes refusing to testify, making more people suspicious.
Shes not flat out lieing, and yes she did testify, and will testify again, just not in public meetings. Everything she said under oath before the commission in Feb, will be released when they issue their report this fall.
She did NOT testify under oath. See above.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Yup, it's too bad the cold war ended, Condi is really a Soviet Union/Russia specialist. I think she's out of her core competency dealing with the ME. I think Bush managed to pick the wrong national security adviser. Woops.

Anyway, as far as I know, Condi is still citing executive priviledge in not testifying under oath for the 9/11 commission. She was on the news the other night arguing that there's a "constitutional basis" behind her refusal.

Whatever.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Yup, it's too bad the cold war ended, Condi is really a Soviet Union/Russia specialist. I think she's out of her core competency dealing with the ME. I think Bush managed to pick the wrong national security adviser. Woops.

Anyway, as far as I know, Condi is still citing executive priviledge in not testifying under oath for the 9/11 commission. She was on the news the other night arguing that there's a "constitutional basis" behind her refusal.

Whatever.

haha, certainly not a precedent;) clintons national security advisor went under oath twice i believe.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: digitalsm
You are fully aware Condi Rice testified under oath before the 9/11 commission back last month, for 4 hours. Richard Clarke did too for 15 hours, so did everyone else that has testified in public hearins. The meat and potatoes of the investigation was/is being done behind closed doors. The past two days were dog and pony shows.

I think the families of the 9/11 attacks have the RIGHT to face the woman who was possibly responsible for their family's deaths.

I think the hijackers were responsible for thier family members deaths. Don't forget that.

Culpability is not limited to the criminals physically involved in the act.

In our society Culpability is limited to those that commit an actual crime, or those
responsible for the person.

Pre-emption of crime is a fairly new concept, dating back to a
a bit before columbine. Very few laws on the book dealing
with intervention, because 1st adm rights usually win the debates.

Very tricky subject to think about.

Back to Rice

Rice does share a burden in failing to prevent a crime, as does
every person that participates in the political system
that governs our society. We are afterall a sum of our parts
not the otherway around.


Like Oroo Oroo, I believe she will be judged,
but not quite yet.
I need to know more...

One can still be held liable for negligence, or as an accessory.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
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Wow! I did not know she hadn't testified under oath. That is going to be spun by the left to make her and Bush look really bad. What is the justification other than Executive Privilege? (No minor point, by the way.)

So, what's more important, finding out what we could have done to prevent 9-11, or Rice's nice point regarding Executive Privilege? Since she is the point person in all of this, I would think not having her testimony under oath is going to make the Commission's work an exercise in guesswork.

Anyway, this report may well be very bad news for the administration. I'd guess a Minority Report will be in the offing, with some nasty language for the Bush Administration and its failure to fully cooperate. You know the political downside of Rice testifying under oath must be huge if the Bush Administration is willing to suffer this kind of humiliation.

-Robert
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
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Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: digitalsm
You are fully aware Condi Rice testified under oath before the 9/11 commission back last month, for 4 hours. Richard Clarke did too for 15 hours, so did everyone else that has testified in public hearins. The meat and potatoes of the investigation was/is being done behind closed doors. The past two days were dog and pony shows.

I think the families of the 9/11 attacks have the RIGHT to face the woman who was possibly responsible for their family's deaths.

How could ANYONE other than the hijackers be responsible for the 9/11 deaths? Fallacy much?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: digitalsm
You are fully aware Condi Rice testified under oath before the 9/11 commission back last month, for 4 hours. Richard Clarke did too for 15 hours, so did everyone else that has testified in public hearins. The meat and potatoes of the investigation was/is being done behind closed doors. The past two days were dog and pony shows.

I think the families of the 9/11 attacks have the RIGHT to face the woman who was possibly responsible for their family's deaths.

I think the hijackers were responsible for thier family members deaths. Don't forget that.

Culpability is not limited to the criminals physically involved in the act.

Not to engage in a serious slippery slope here Orsorum, but don't you think that is fairly ridiculous to hold HER responsible for the deaths? I could see her being culpable for the general state of national security and some intelligence matters at the time, but it isn't as if she knew the hijackers were there and just "ignored" them and didn't tell anyone. Not doing your job well and being negligent are two totally different things in my opinion. It is evident there were some serious breakdowns and failures by our government. However, I think saying an individual is responsible is a bit much. About the slippery slope. There is evidence that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor or a Japanese attack before it happened. In that case wouldn't he have even more serious blame than Condi Rice? I'm just comparing not saying it makes her behavior ok, nor trying to shift the focus. I'm simply saying that if you hold her responsible for the actual attack, then Roosevelt is responsible for a lot of deaths at Pearl Harbor and even more after that after we invaded Europe.

I've yet to see anything that suggested Condi had warning and ignored it for a sinister purpose. Then she would be seriously responsible. Until then she is responsible for her duty and job, and if she did that poorly she is deserving of censure. Saying she was the cause of 3000 deaths is simply illogical and a bit silly.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
I'd also like to know how Clarke was so cocksure that we would be attacked domestically. Until 9/11 their MO was strictly American targets abroad. You can argue that is the next logical step to attack us here at home, but Clarke better start showing documents or find someone to back him up on that. Everyone knew Al-Qaida was a threat, but where exactly were they a threat?

"You urge policymakers to imagine a day after hundreds of Americans lay dead at home and abroad."

That to me doesn't really cut it. That statement can be read so many different ways it isn't even funny. Either way, there was still an emphasis on abroad and no one seriously believed they had cells ready to strike domestically. What I want to know, is that if they went to the public days before 9/11 and said we have evidence of a pending attack... would that have stopped it? Probably not. Is there any proof it would have been stopped? No. I don't have any problems with examining why we didn't catch it, but can we stop the blame game and partisan bullsh!t. This is why I really hate politicians. They can't get anything done because all they do is stand up all day and point fingers. An investigation should happen, blame should be passed around, and we should get to the bottom of it. However, this really is a dog and pony show like another posted stated. The American Public will never know what really happened and what intel they had. Not until 30 years from now when it is declassified.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
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Rice ducked the toothless 'Public' Dog and Pony Apeasment Show -
where she would have appeared to have been 'Politically Correct'.

She didn't want to testify in a open and public forum before the commision,
only in a closed door session so no one in the general public would hear.
And not even 'Under Oath'
Executive Privledge ? Please, it gets abused way too much.
In my opinion the Executive Privledge should only be for the Executive himself,
and not to the underlings that have pull tricks and tried to manipulate policy.

I for one don't think that she should be allowed to come back, after the fact, and
try to wiggle out of her initial refusal - let that refusal stand as an indictment of her
lack of co-operation and her deceiptfulness to the Congressional Comittee and the Public.
She's into a cover-up mode, shifting the blame, and should resign or be fired.
Hell, even Trump would fire her.

More about her stance from the Washington Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[CLIP]

This week's testimony and media blitz by former White House counterterrorism chief Richard A. Clarke has returned unwanted attention to his former boss, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice.
The refusal by President Bush's top security aide to testify publicly before the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks elicited rebukes by commission members as they held public hearings without her this week. Thomas H. Kean (R), the former New Jersey governor Bush named to be chairman of the commission, observed: "I think this administration shot itself in the foot by not letting her testify in public."

At the same time, some of Rice's rebuttals of Clarke's broadside against Bush, which she delivered in a flurry of media interviews and statements rather than in testimony, contradicted other administration officials and her own previous statements.

Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage contradicted Rice's claim that the White House had a strategy before 9/11 for military operations against al Qaeda and the Taliban; the CIA contradicted Rice's earlier assertion that Bush had requested a CIA briefing in the summer of 2001 because of elevated terrorist threats; and Rice's assertion this week that Bush told her on Sept. 16, 2001, that "Iraq is to the side" appeared to be contradicted by an order signed by Bush on Sept. 17 directing the Pentagon to begin planning military options for an invasion of Iraq.

Rice, in turn, has contradicted Vice President Cheney's assertion that Clarke was "out of the loop" and his intimation that Clarke had been demoted. Rice has also given various conflicting accounts. She criticized Clarke for being the architect of failed Clinton administration policies, but also said she retained Clarke so the Bush administration could continue to pursue Clinton's terrorism policies.

National Security Council spokesman Sean McCormack defended many of Rice's assertions, saying that she has been more consistent than Clarke.

This is not the first time in her tenure that Rice has been questioned over disputed national security claims by the administration. Making the case about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction in September 2002, she said that aluminum tubes the United States intercepted on their way to Iraq were "only suited for nuclear weapons programs." But at the time, the U.S. intelligence community was split over the use of the tubes, and today the majority view is that the tubes were for antiaircraft rockets.

Rice so far has refused to provide testimony under oath to the commission that could possibly resolve the contradictions. On Wednesday night, she told reporters, "I would like nothing better in a sense than to be able to go up and do this, but I have a responsibility to maintain what is a long-standing constitutional separation between the executive and the legislative branch."

Other presidential aides have waived their immunity; President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, did, as did President Bill Clinton's national security adviser, Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger. McCormack said the comparisons are not applicable because Berger did not testify in public about policy matters.

The White House, reacting to the public relations difficulties caused by the refusal to allow Rice's testimony, yesterday asked the commission to give Rice another opportunity to speak privately with panel members to address "mischaracterizations of Dr. Rice's statements and positions."

Democratic commission member Richard Ben-Veniste disclosed this week that Rice had asked, in her private meetings with the commission, to revise a statement she made publicly that "I don't think anybody could have predicted that those people could have taken an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center . . . that they would try to use an airplane as a missile." Rice told the commission that she misspoke; the commission has received information that prior to Sept. 11, U.S. intelligence agencies and Clarke had talked about terrorists using airplanes as missiles.

In an op-ed published Monday in The Washington Post, Rice wrote that "through the spring and summer of 2001, the national security team developed a strategy to eliminate al Qaeda" that included "sufficient military options to remove the Taliban regime" including the use of ground forces. But Armitage, testifying this week as the White House representative, said the military part was not in the plan before Sept. 11. "I think that was amended after the horror of 9/11," he said. McCormack said Rice's statement is accurate because the team discussed including orders for such military plans to be drawn up.

In the same article, Rice belittled Clarke's proposals by writing: "The president wanted more than a laundry list of ideas simply to contain al Qaeda or 'roll back' the threat. Once in office, we quickly began crafting a comprehensive new strategy to 'eliminate' the al Qaeda network." Rice asserted that while Clarke and others provided ideas, "No al Qaeda plan was turned over to the new administration." That same day, she said most of Clarke's ideas "had been already tried or rejected in the Clinton administration."

But in her interview with NBC two days later, Rice appeared to take a different view of Clarke's proposals. "He sent us a set of ideas that would perhaps help to roll back al Qaeda over a three - to five-year period; we acted on those ideas very quickly. And what's very interesting is that . . . Dick Clarke now says that we ignored his ideas or we didn't follow them up."

Asked about this apparent discrepancy, McCormack pointed a reporter to a Clarke background briefing in 2002 in which the then-White House aide was defending the president's efforts in fighting terrorism.

Similarly, Rice implicitly criticized Clarke on CNN on Monday, saying that "he was the counterterrorism czar for a period of the '90s when al Qaeda was strengthening and when the plots that ended up September 11 were being hatched." But in a White House briefing two days later, she said she kept Clarke on the job because "I wanted somebody experienced in that area precisely to carry on the Clinton administration policy." McCormack said Clarke was kept on for continuity.

Among the most serious discrepancies in Rice's claims to emerge this week is about a briefing on terrorism Bush received on Aug. 6, 2001.

Rice had said on May 12, 2002, that the briefing was produced because Bush had asked about dangers of al Qaeda attacking the United States. But at the commission hearing, Ben-Veniste said that the CIA informed the 9/11 panel last week that the author of the briefing does not recall such a request from Bush and that the idea to compile the briefing came from within the CIA.

McCormack said that when the CIA briefer presented the paper, he said it was in response to the president's questions.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Nice post, Capt.

This is why cross-examination was invented. You get a group of criminals, or politicians, together in a cabal, and they all lie, but their lies don't fit on top of each other. Instead of a coherent picture, it's like being in a house of mirrors at the carnival. Everything is slightly out of shape. Tall is fat, short is thin. In sum, it becomes an exercise in guessing who is lying and who is telling the truth. When members of the same cabal tell different truths, you know the trier of fact can only reach one conclusion: "The cabal is not telling the truth." I know this will come as a shock to everyone here. :)

BTW, I would trust Armitage before Rice, but after Clarke. Armitage is an old line Reagan conservative and no neo-con. He's probably got more character than the rest of them. I'm not sure he drank the Kool-Ade....

-Robert

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
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Originally posted by: chess9
Nice post, Capt.

This is why cross-examination was invented. You get a group of criminals, or politicians, together in a cabal, and they all lie, but their lies don't fit on top of each other. Instead of a coherent picture, it's like being in a house of mirrors at the carnival. Everything is slightly out of shape. Tall is fat, short is thin. In sum, it becomes an exercise in guessing who is lying and who is telling the truth. When members of the same cabal tell different truths, you know the trier of fact can only reach one conclusion: "The cabal is not telling the truth." I know this will come as a shock to everyone here. :)

BTW, I would trust Armitage before Rice, but after Clarke. Armitage is an old line Reagan conservative and no neo-con. He's probably got more character than the rest of them. I'm not sure he drank the Kool-Ade....

-Robert

So you are saying that perspective and memory of an event can't differ in the slighest? Especially when certain someones have books coming out or for partisan gain? Surely you jest in thinking the evil Republicans are getting caught. Democrat/Republican... Cancer/AIDs take your pick.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
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certain someones have books coming out or for partisan gain

Are you paying atrention to details ?

Clarke was brought in by Reagan, and served consecutive terms under Bush-1,
then Clinton, then Bush-2. Yes he's partisan - Republican partisan.
He is disgusted by the Bush-2 manipulation of agenda to screw the country
and make Dubay look like a hero - which he ain't.

I dount that Clarke will make the Billions on his book that the White House spin aledges.
This Administration is composed of serial liars, who are scared to death to tell the truth
to anyone, and won't report the facts to Dubya, because he doesn't want the facts.
All he wants is yes-men telling him 'Yep, you are right, sir' and doing his bidding,
and telling him how great he is, stroke that ego, he has severe character flaws.
He just doesn't have the cranial capacity ot analyze and understand anything.
My Way - or the Highway.
He's an imposter - the Emperor has no clothes.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Out of that post I got zero. Sorry. I was looking for a rational rebuttal to Clarke just NOW coming out with this. He didn't have to wait until hearings...

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Out of that post I got zero. Sorry. I was looking for a rational rebuttal to Clarke just NOW coming out with this. He didn't have to wait until hearings...
It the White House Lawyers didn't hang on to the transcripts of the book as long as they did this information would have been out in the public 6 months to a year ago.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mill
Out of that post I got zero. Sorry. I was looking for a rational rebuttal to Clarke just NOW coming out with this. He didn't have to wait until hearings...
It the White House Lawyers didn't hang on to the transcripts of the book as long as they did this information would have been out in the public 6 months to a year ago.

But you agree then that his book was more important to him that preventing something like this from happening again? Not trying to put words in your mouth; just asking what you think.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mill
Out of that post I got zero. Sorry. I was looking for a rational rebuttal to Clarke just NOW coming out with this. He didn't have to wait until hearings...
It the White House Lawyers didn't hang on to the transcripts of the book as long as they did this information would have been out in the public 6 months to a year ago.

But you agree then that his book was more important to him that preventing something like this from happening again? Not trying to put words in your mouth; just asking what you think.
I don't know.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Check out today's picture of Rice on CNN. I swear they are KILLING HER! She is dead, smelly meat and will have almost zero credibility henceforth if she doesn't reverse course quickly. The only recourse is public testimony under oath.

-Robert