Why can't you be both a Christian and a liberal? A thread for Conservative Christians to defend themselves.

[glenn1]

since we are on this subject, why do conservatives support the death penalty?

As a Libertarian, i have no idea. I normally believe most governments are barely competent to deliver the mail, so why we would trust them with the far greater responsibility of whether to kill people is beyond me. But then again, the reasoning most liberals and Europeans give for opposing the death penalty is also beyond contempt and would be utterly laughable if not for the fact that lives are at stake.

 

[b0mbrman]

Why is it that you can't be a Christian and a liberal at the same time?

For the same reason we don't listen to pop music, don't use IE, and don't shop at Wal-mart.

Because being a Christian is so mainstream. Not only that, it's what our parents would really like to see...

 

[ClueLis]

Many of the most religious people I know are flaming liberals so Coulter seems to be mistaken, at least from my prospective. I have noticed, however, that those who are religious and demand government endorsement of Christianity are conservatives.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not. They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: glenn1

On paying taxes: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:22.)

You're missing the point of that passage. It's not meant to express a political POV, indeed it does just the opposite. It's essentially the philosophical underpinnings of the idea now thought of as "wall of seperation between church and state." In that expression, Jesus is reminding his audience that religion is about developing a personal relationship with God and that the worldly realm (such as politics) is simply a distraction on that journey.

Good point. I missed that. He also protested the coin with Caesar's face on it as idolatrous.

 

[glenn1]

no theyre not. They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Yes, they are, and so are Mormons. A Christian is a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ and redemption of sinners through His death and resurrection. He made made the sacrifice and delivered the new covenant for all mankind, including those other denominations to whom you'd deny His namesake. Just because some in your denomination would expropriate and hijack the definition and usage of the word "Christian" for your own purposes doesn't make it so, and you should be ashamed at trying to justify excluding them from His grace.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: sandorski
You can be, but I think you hit the nail on the head. That is, the Republicans(aka Conservatives) make a stand on a Moral issue, certain segments of Christians see that stand and support it. Once that is established, they seem to accept everything else on Faith that it is also correct, that the rest of the Policies must be "Christian", because the one(or few) Policies appear Christian. On the flipside, they look at the Democrats(aka Liberals) and don't see any Moral policies that they agree with, then decide that they(Democrats) are not Christian.

Part of this stems from a Fundamentalist viewpoint, some doesn't:

1) Non-Fundamentalists hold the Moral issue as most important. The Economic, Social, or other policies are not important, only the Moral policy.

2) Fundamentalists also feel the same way as the Non-Fundamentalists, but they have a twist. Dubyah said it best, "You're either with us or against us!" that point is very much a Fundamentalist sentiment. The Fundamentalist believes strongly in exclusivity, that is their group is Right all others are wrong, in fact all others are considered "Satanic" controlled by the Devil. Even fellow Christians who believe more or less the same, but Practice differently or don't conform politically(support Dems/Libs) are looked down upon. All that said, there are many who call themselves "Fundamentalists" that are not as kooky as those I just described.

The main reason, IMO, that "Christains" are rarely "Liberal" has to do with peer pressure. Organizations like the Moral Majority, PTL, and others have successfully steered "Christians" towards the Republican Party. Most Fundamentalist Churches have no hierarchy(visible at least) beyond the Local level, so these well known TV personalities often fill the void for a Pope like central authority, it gives them comfort and a feeling of being part of a larger thing.

Many/Most Fundamentalists also believe that God directs their Life. Not in a "Fate" kinda way, but directly "speaking" to one's soul, that Thoughts and Ideas are constantly flowing to them. As such, when a fellow Christian suggests the Dems/Libs as a viable alternative , those around them often react somewhat shocked, it is just assumed that the Collective thinks alike, that everyone receives their Ideas/Direction from a Consistent God, for why would God want Susie to vote one way, but Bobbie another?

This lends also to surrendering ones Individuality for the approval of the Collective. New converts to Fundamentalism are encouraged to not think for themselves, they are told that everything up to their point of Salvation is a lie and the result of Satanic control. So the convert empties their mind and seeks out the proper Morals/Values/Thoughts/etc from the Bible and Fellow Christians. IMO, if they stick to the Bible as their guide, they will turn out ok, but if they seek out and mimic their fellow Christians, they're fvckt. Unfortunetly, the lure of being part of something bigger develops a Group Mentality that disallows Individual thought or Opinion. A Christian singer, Steve Taylor, wrote the appropriately titled song, "I Want to be a Clone"it deals with this issue and also shows that even amongst Fundamentalists their are some who maintain their Individuality.

Didn't mean to go off on a Fundamentalist Bash, but IMO that is the main group who can't be "Liberal" in a generalized sense.

You have some fairly deep insight... Might I ask if you are a Christian? Might I also ask if the logical conclusion one can draw from this, is that Christian conservatives push an agenda which largely does not serve to glorify God? How do you suppose even the televangelists (especially?) and other prominent church leaders continue to justify these agendas?

Yes and No. I was, from the age of 12-19ish, what I would call a Fundamentalist Christian and very devout as such. I believed very much in many of the things I now rail against Creation Science, Republican Style Conservatism(including Bush style Neo-Conservatism), Anti-Communist/Pro-Capitalist, Anti-Abortion, Anti-Gay, etc.

Though I held these views, it was fortunate that my main mentor of the Non-Denominational church I mainly attended was not as "Fundamentalist", or in the same way, as I was. This individual emphasized Jesus above all else, Independent Critical thinking of issues, and complete Freedom of Thought allowing dissenting opinions. Many times I'd be off on one of my tangents when he'd just respond to me, "It's Jesus!", took awhile to sink in, but it holds to this day, Christianity(at it's purist level) is about Jesus, nothing more. Sprinkle/Submerge, Juice/Wine, Pre-Trib/Mid-/Post, Creation/Evolution, yadda ya are all pointless diversions, it would be easy to just overlook them except for the amount of violence started by many over these types of subjects.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Zebo
What are you talking about Chirstians should be left of Nader.

Bible is a liberals paradise

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Christian conservatives really need to come to grips with what the Bible says:

On defense: Jesus said "Love your enemies" and "Blessed are the peacemakers." "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:44; 5:9; 5:39.)

On social programs: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matthew 19:21.)

On rugged individualism and the pursuit of self-interest: "Love your neighbor as yourself." "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." (Matthew 22:39; 7:12.)

On financial success: "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." "You cannot serve both God and Money." (Matthew 19:23; 6:24.)

On the philosophy that "greed is good": "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15.)

On paying taxes: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:22.)

On crime and punishment: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (John 8:7; Matthew 7:1,2.)

On climbing the social ladder: "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'" (Matthew 11:19.)

On the perks and privileges of power: "After that, [Jesus] poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him." (John 13:5.)

On family: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple." Also: "'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers.'" (Luke 14:26; Matthew 12:48,49.)

On race relations: In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen. (Luke 10:30-37.)

On the superiority of one's native country: "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'" (Matthew 10:5,6.)

On letting others pull themselves up by their own bootstraps: "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:13,14.)

The question should be how can one be both a conservative and a Christian? Christ was a liberal. What do they know that He didn't?

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: glenn1

no theyre not. They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Yes, they are, and so are Mormons. A Christian is a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ and redemption of sinners through His death and resurrection. He made made the sacrifice and delivered the new covenant for all mankind, including those other denominations to whom you'd deny His namesake. Just because some in your denomination would expropriate and hijack the definition and usage of the word "Christian" for your own purposes doesn't make it so, and you should be ashamed at trying to justify excluding them from His grace.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one... Shall we start another thread?

If I say I believe Jesus is God... that is... both he and the night watchman over at the local Harrah's...
Am I a Christian?

So if I pray to a bunch of saints and Mary... in addition to Jesus... How does differ?

It all depends on how liberally you interpret the Bible. Jesus clearly says that HE is the only way to God the Father. If you interpret "HE" as HE and a bunch of other mortals, well, then thats more liberal than is acceptable to me. Same goes with all the extraneous stuff mormons add in. It was all just to legitimize them geographically IMO.

 

[glenn1]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one... Shall we start another thread?

If I say I believe Jesus is God... that is... both he and the night watchman over at the local Harrah's...
Am I a Christian?

So if I pray to a bunch of saints and Mary... in addition to Jesus... How does differ?

It all depends on how liberally you interpret the Bible. Jesus clearly says that HE is the only way to God the Father. If you interpret "HE" as HE and a bunch of other mortals, well, then thats more liberal than is acceptable to me. Same goes with all the extraneous stuff mormons add in. It was all just to legitimize them geographically IMO.

We can start a new thread if you like, sure.

But to answer your question, the central act and belief of Christianity is that by the act of dying on the cross and being resurrected, Jesus Christ took unto Himself the sins of the world, thus paying the price of redemption for all who believe in Him. Now, if you believe this, it makes believing in others (like your night watchman example) somewhat of a moot point. After all, if Jesus already paid the price for your sins on the cross, you would think it makes it rather unnecessary for the night watchman at Harrah's to need to do the same

As for praying to Mary and other saints, although i'm not Catholic, I believe the principle that they're operatin under is that they "offer up" to Mary, etc. etc. for intercession. In other words, instead of asking God for something directly, they ask a saint to ask God for them. But they're not worshipping Mary or the saints the same way they would worship God, but rather utilizing them as sort of an call center, asking them to take a message for God. It seems a bit odd to me, but then again, it's not my faith. Any Catholics out there, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not.



This is all your opinion.

They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

You're like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: glenn1

I'll have to disagree with you on this one... Shall we start another thread?

If I say I believe Jesus is God... that is... both he and the night watchman over at the local Harrah's...
Am I a Christian?

So if I pray to a bunch of saints and Mary... in addition to Jesus... How does differ?

It all depends on how liberally you interpret the Bible. Jesus clearly says that HE is the only way to God the Father. If you interpret "HE" as HE and a bunch of other mortals, well, then thats more liberal than is acceptable to me. Same goes with all the extraneous stuff mormons add in. It was all just to legitimize them geographically IMO.

We can start a new thread if you like, sure.

But to answer your question, the central act and belief of Christianity is that by the act of dying on the cross and being resurrected, Jesus Christ took unto Himself the sins of the world, thus paying the price of redemption for all who believe in Him. Now, if you believe this, it makes believing in others (like your night watchman example) somewhat of a moot point. After all, if Jesus already paid the price for your sins on the cross, you would think it makes it rather unnecessary for the night watchman at Harrah's to need to do the same

As for praying to Mary and other saints, although i'm not Catholic, I believe the principle that they're operatin under is that they "offer up" to Mary, etc. etc. for intercession. In other words, instead of asking God for something directly, they ask a saint to ask God for them. But they're not worshipping Mary or the saints the same way they would worship God, but rather utilizing them as sort of an call center, asking them to take a message for God. It seems a bit odd to me, but then again, it's not my faith. Any Catholics out there, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I was raised a Catholic though I am not practicing Catholic anymore. You have the correct idea of how it works. I think this tradition has it's roots in the fact that until the printing press and the Protestant break-away must people depended on priests to pass "the word of God" along and thus why not have heaven structured in the same manner. It was a kind of a way for early Christians to make sense of their world and also to help enforce the idea of a command structure/leadership/social structure that was used to cement the hold of King's control over his subjects through an indoctrination of a social/command ladder of sorts in the Christian religion early on.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not.



This is all your opinion.

They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

Your like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

the Holy Mother...


I asked that also, Since i am lutheran ( a simplified Catholic basically) when i married a catholic.

Ive never gotten a real good explaination except,

She is Jesus's mother and we all hold mothers highly.

She is a saint.

And if you believe in the trinity, that the father, son, and holy ghost are all the same one entity ( god), that also makes mary Gods Mother, in a way.




anyway, that loon that says Catholics arent Christian is an idiot watching too much 700 club.

CATHOLISIM WAS THE FIRST CHRISITAN CHURCH, with bzan the second, and lutheran the Third

YOUR NON DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH IS A STRIPPED DOWN CATHOLIC MASS THAT REMOVED AND CHANGED OVER THE YEARS TO BETTER SUIT PARTICULAR BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH MEMBERS.

your measly little non denominational church would have never of existed, If Martin Luther had never pulled away from the catholic church in the first place.

 

[glenn1]

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

Your like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

Good anology. In fact, i'll build on it. There's no conflict between being a Christian and believing in a later prophet such as Mohammed or John Smith (?, the founder of the Mormon church, i think that's his name anyway) so long as the central concept of Christianity (the sacrifice of Christ on the cross) is preserved. Since Islam does not agree with the concept of the divinity of Christ, but rather holds him to be simply a human prophet, their beliefs are not Christian. Since Mormons DO believe in the divinity of Christ, they are Christians, even while (or in spite of?) believing Joseph Smith was a prophet through whom God delivered additional testament. The foundation of Christ's divinity was maintained, so therefore they're Christians whereas Muslims are not. You can use the same test for any set of religious beliefs to determine if they're Christian or not.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not.



This is all your opinion.

They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

You're like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

ugh, theres to many posts here trying to refute what i have said, but ill just reply to this one for now, then when i get back from physical therapy, ill reply to the others.

yes, I do know so well of the Protestant break from the Catholic church, i read a lot of history. Protestants are Christians, but Protestants are not Catholic. So, if you to play it that way, no, Catholics are not Christians.

 

[jm0ris0n]

I am a liberal Southern Baptist myself.

God gave his son for all human kind. Not special persons.

Jesus himself was a vagrant carpenter who wandered around talking to people and building relationships. He bashed all the religious authorities of his time. In fact, he pissed them off so much they had him killed.

Jesus was one heck of a liberal !

Sometimes I wish Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson would keep their divine insight to themselves... :disgust: instead of giving all those who follow Christ a bad rep.

/Just my 2 cents from a 20 year old college student...

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not.



This is all your opinion.

They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

You're like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

ugh, theres to many posts here trying to refute what i have said, but ill just reply to this one for now, then when i get back from physical therapy, ill reply to the others.

yes, I do know so well of the Protestant break from the Catholic church, i read a lot of history. Protestants are Christians, but Protestants are not Catholic. So, if you to play it that way, no, Catholics are not Christians.

Again you are confusing the name of religious doctrines,Catholicism and
Protestantism which deals on how each sect views, and performs the practicing of the teachings of Christ. Again you are wrong and need to think about this a little more. One can easily point out the differences in terms of how each denominations of the Protestant faith practices their particular view of Christianity and disqualify each and every one of them if you only look at one particular standard of worshiping. Again for example Shiites and Sunnis each have different views and practices for the same faith ( Islam ) yet both are clearly muslims.

or here's another example:

Catholicism = A more orthodox view of the Christian faith ( in Western Europe ) in terms of it's leadership structure and what religious text and practices they adhere too. Of course the Eastern Orthodox church is even more orthodox then the Catholic church in several areas which are closer to the orginal teachings of Christ and his early followers.

Protestantism = a reformist view of the Christian faith and it's leadership structure which expanded on the original texts to justify their breaking away from the more orthodox Catholic church in the West and to clear up the rough edges left un-answered or which contradicted itself in previous older religious text used by the Catholic church.

So basically Catholicism, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church all evolved from the same Christian seed that grew into a tree but they are different because they are branches that followed their own paths. Yet they are branches connected to the same trunk of core teachings and roots of the same beliefs systems that fed the tree known as Christianty.

 

[Tripleshot]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Zebo
What are you talking about Chirstians should be left of Nader.

Bible is a liberals paradise

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Christian conservatives really need to come to grips with what the Bible says:

On defense: Jesus said "Love your enemies" and "Blessed are the peacemakers." "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:44; 5:9; 5:39.)

On social programs: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matthew 19:21.)

On rugged individualism and the pursuit of self-interest: "Love your neighbor as yourself." "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." (Matthew 22:39; 7:12.)

On financial success: "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." "You cannot serve both God and Money." (Matthew 19:23; 6:24.)

On the philosophy that "greed is good": "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15.)

On paying taxes: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:22.)

On crime and punishment: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (John 8:7; Matthew 7:1,2.)

On climbing the social ladder: "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'" (Matthew 11:19.)

On the perks and privileges of power: "After that, [Jesus] poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him." (John 13:5.)

On family: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple." Also: "'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers.'" (Luke 14:26; Matthew 12:48,49.)

On race relations: In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen. (Luke 10:30-37.)

On the superiority of one's native country: "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'" (Matthew 10:5,6.)

On letting others pull themselves up by their own bootstraps: "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:13,14.)

Two words.............. Thank you.

 

[Tripleshot]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not. They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

You, sir, are clueless... not even deserving of conversation with the intelligent members of this forum.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not.



This is all your opinion.

They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

You're like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

ugh, theres to many posts here trying to refute what i have said, but ill just reply to this one for now, then when i get back from physical therapy, ill reply to the others.

yes, I do know so well of the Protestant break from the Catholic church, i read a lot of history. Protestants are Christians, but Protestants are not Catholic. So, if you to play it that way, no, Catholics are not Christians.

Again you are confusing the name of religious doctrines,Catholicism and
Protestantism which deals on how each sect views, and performs the practicing of the teachings of Christ. Again you are wrong and need to think about this a little more. One can easily point out the differences in terms of how each denominations of the Protestant faith practices their particular view of Christianity and disqualify each and every one of them if you only look at one particular standard of worshiping. Again for example Shiites and Sunnis each have different views and practices for the same faith ( Islam ) yet both are clearly muslims.

or here's another example:

Catholicism = A more orthodox view of the Christian faith ( in Western Europe ) in terms of it's leadership structure and what religious text and practices they adhere too. Of course the Eastern Orthodox church is even more orthodox then the Catholic church in several areas which are closer to the orginal teachings of Christ and his early followers.

Protestantism = a reformist view of the Christian faith and it's leadership structure which expanded on the original texts to justify their breaking away from the more orthodox Catholic church in the West and to clear up the rough edges left un-answered or which contradicted itself in previous older religious text used by the Catholic church.

So basically Catholicism, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church all evolved from the same Christian seed that grew into a tree but they are different because they are branches that followed their own paths. Yet they are branches connected to the same trunk of core teachings and roots of the same beliefs systems that fed the tree known as Christianty.

no, i dont believe that im confused on the names of the doctrines and how they carry out their beliefs. that [to me anyway] is what seperates them. its all the ridiculous ceremony and ritual practices [and in the case of Mormons, what they've added to the religion] that seperates Catholics and Protestants [Christians] and Mormons. Sure, they all share a smiliar belief, but because Catholics decide they need an intermediary to confess their sins, they are no longer Christian [Protestant]. Sure, Mormons believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, but because they believe that he also traveled to N. America to preach disqualifies them being considered Christian [Protestant] as well.

So, yes Catholicism, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church [Catholics] all derive their teachings and such from the same place, but in that case [to a lesser extent], so do Messianic Jews.

You, sir, are clueless... not even deserving of conversation with the intelligent members of this forum.

I see. And judging by your post, you have a greater clue to what is being discussed than I do? Please, enlighten me since you're privy to knowledge that I am not.

 

[Zephyr106]

I agree with the posters above that the New Testament, particularly Jesus's teachings, are decidedly liberal by contemporary standards. Many Christian Conservatives get around this by paying lip service to the writings of Jesus and "preferring" the teachings and stories of the Old Testament, with it's eye-for-an-eye, tie the millstone around the sinner's neck, raze Sodom and Gomorrah mentality. An angry and vengeful God for angry and vengeful people? A God is a reflection of its worshippers?

Zephyr

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106
I agree with the posters above that the New Testament, particularly Jesus's teachings, are decidedly liberal by contemporary standards. Many Christian Conservatives get around this by paying lip service to the writings of Jesus and "preferring" the teachings and stories of the Old Testament, with it's eye-for-an-eye, tie the millstone around the sinner's neck, raze Sodom and Gomorrah mentality. An angry and vengeful God for angry and vengeful people? A God is a reflection of its worshippers?

Zephyr

The Second Coming of the Phariscees is what it is. IMO, Christianity is a spent force and soon will become like Judaism, still existant and having some influence, but relegated to the sidelines. A new philosophy/religion will rise up and lead humanity to yet another level of Civilization. This new Philosophy/Religion is what Christians refer to as the Second Coming of Christ, but like Judaism before, the expectation will not be realized by the reality. There is no Rapture, there is no auto-promotion of "True Christians"(inheritance through association), and the Second Christ, just like how the Jews expect(ed) of the first, has not come to make "Christians" the ruler of the world.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Conservatism has a religious history in the US, doesn't it? Isn't it about Patriotism? Christian morality?

If you actually drag the Bible into it it will not be about patriotism unless you live in Israel. Unless you of course have an IQ lower than a pebble and believe that Jesus actually lived in the US and that Native Americans used to be white.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

no theyre not.



This is all your opinion.

They believe in intermediaries between themselves and God with which to confess their sins. Christians confess their sins to God directly. Not only that, but Christian denominations [the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc...] DO NOT pray to the Mother Mary, and do not believe in her having any significance other than that of bringing Jesus into the world.

Saying Catholics are Christians is like saying Mormons are Christians.

Fact: Protestants broke away from the original Christian church i.e the Catholic church. Martin Luther left because of corruption and the King of England left because he wanted a divorce from his wife and did not want the church leaders in Rome getting in his way. As for "intermediaries" this has been a tradition in the Christian religion that predated the Protestant break-away from the Church.

You're like a Sunni saying that Shiite's are not Muslim because one believes that the Khalif ( aka head of the Muslim world ) must be appointed from Muhammad's blood line and the other is saying that they should be elected instead. You are just splitting hairs here on traditions of one sect that was the orginal one versus another one which broke away for whatever reason from the main religon that founded both.

ugh, theres to many posts here trying to refute what i have said, but ill just reply to this one for now, then when i get back from physical therapy, ill reply to the others.

yes, I do know so well of the Protestant break from the Catholic church, i read a lot of history. Protestants are Christians, but Protestants are not Catholic. So, if you to play it that way, no, Catholics are not Christians.

Again you are confusing the name of religious doctrines,Catholicism and
Protestantism which deals on how each sect views, and performs the practicing of the teachings of Christ. Again you are wrong and need to think about this a little more. One can easily point out the differences in terms of how each denominations of the Protestant faith practices their particular view of Christianity and disqualify each and every one of them if you only look at one particular standard of worshiping. Again for example Shiites and Sunnis each have different views and practices for the same faith ( Islam ) yet both are clearly muslims.

or here's another example:

Catholicism = A more orthodox view of the Christian faith ( in Western Europe ) in terms of it's leadership structure and what religious text and practices they adhere too. Of course the Eastern Orthodox church is even more orthodox then the Catholic church in several areas which are closer to the orginal teachings of Christ and his early followers.

Protestantism = a reformist view of the Christian faith and it's leadership structure which expanded on the original texts to justify their breaking away from the more orthodox Catholic church in the West and to clear up the rough edges left un-answered or which contradicted itself in previous older religious text used by the Catholic church.

So basically Catholicism, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church all evolved from the same Christian seed that grew into a tree but they are different because they are branches that followed their own paths. Yet they are branches connected to the same trunk of core teachings and roots of the same beliefs systems that fed the tree known as Christianty.

no, i dont believe that im confused on the names of the doctrines and how they carry out their beliefs. that [to me anyway] is what seperates them. its all the ridiculous ceremony and ritual practices [and in the case of Mormons, what they've added to the religion] that seperates Catholics and Protestants [Christians] and Mormons. Sure, they all share a smiliar belief, but because Catholics decide they need an intermediary to confess their sins, they are no longer Christian [Protestant]. Sure, Mormons believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, but because they believe that he also traveled to N. America to preach disqualifies them being considered Christian [Protestant] as well.

So, yes Catholicism, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church [Catholics] all derive their teachings and such from the same place, but in that case [to a lesser extent], so do Messianic Jews.

You, sir, are clueless... not even deserving of conversation with the intelligent members of this forum.

I see. And judging by your post, you have a greater clue to what is being discussed than I do? Please, enlighten me since you're privy to knowledge that I am not.

Or you could easily say "because Protestants easily decided to not use an intermediary", etc... Again you are injecting your own opinions rather then looking at the facts and history. This is a classic example of why I don't care for religion and especially Christianity as a whole. People become so en-trenched in their own perceptions and religious doctrine that you can't possibly rationally explain things to them. Oh yeah Messianic Jews may accept Christ as the Messiah but they are still Jews because they have not abandoned their Jewish traditions and forms of worship like Christians have. Of course you can argue that they are stuck in the middle of the religious evolutionary process that formed Christianity and separated it from Judaism, a glimpse of the past of some early Christians who were also mostly Jews in the beginning.

 

[Red Dawn]

Ann Coulter the Christian

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.