Why can't they give us a good reason for why gas prices are rising.

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...

Crude oil at the highest levels since 1990.
Refinery capacity maxed.
More vehicles on the road (more and more of them less-efficient SUVs)
Summer-blend (MTBE-additive) gas coming up

What do you expect?

You forgot, several major refineries either arent online, or are at half capacity, due to accidents.

Ahhh, so you agree with the Sand Thugs that we have a glut of Oil overflowing all over the place.

Then how do you explain your beloved Gov't folk saying we have a shortage of Oil and that we are down by 3 million barrels from this time last year?

They both can't be right, one of them is lying.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
Nice to see a sector in which the US has no control over.
Good for you OPEC, it is your resource, exploit it.
40 years left in oil supply, make your money's worth.
Maybe this will encourage alternate energy sources, which are needed despirately.
My favourite: hydrogen fuel cell, nuclear fission (until we get solar, tidal, wind, wave, and nuclear fusion off the ground)

"40 years left in oil supply, make your money's worth."

They said that 30 years ago. :roll:

They have been saying it since the 1920s. When the US switched from coal ships to oil ships. Its what prompted the US to start the oil reserve, which originally was promptly sold off to Standard Oil. If people think the Bush and Clinton, or other recent admins, are corrupt or shady, etc, well they have nothing on most of the previous presidents. Presidents used to get away with murder, that might not just be figurtively either. Watergate and the coverup of water gate, were small potatoes to what went on before Nixon/LBJ/Kennedy.

But back on topic. "Experts" have been saying that oil would run out in "20 years" ever since the 20s. The oil was suppoed to be gone in the 70s, they said by the late 90s, etc. Now the currect prediction is 2020. And like in the past, its going to be wrong. Will oil run out? Yes, but not anytime soon, as technology advances, we will be able to tap more and more oil. The vast majority of the oil in the world, can not be tapped, with current technology. Sure the current tappable oil supply may run out by 2020/2030, but thats just a fraction of what the world holds.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...

Crude oil at the highest levels since 1990.
Refinery capacity maxed.
More vehicles on the road (more and more of them less-efficient SUVs)
Summer-blend (MTBE-additive) gas coming up

What do you expect?

You forgot, several major refineries either arent online, or are at half capacity, due to accidents.

Ahhh, so you agree with the Sand Thugs that we have a glut of Oil overflowing all over the place.

Then how do you explain your beloved Gov't folk saying we have a shortage of Oil and that we are down by 3 million barrels from this time last year?

They both can't be right, one of them is lying.

The refineries cant keep up with the amount of oil, but the amount of oil we do have wouldnt be enough either. If all the refineries were online, gas prices would still be high because we are short, however, they would not be NEARLY as high. I honestly dont expect the national avg to top $2.00. It will get close, but it wont go over.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
Nice to see a sector in which the US has no control over.
Good for you OPEC, it is your resource, exploit it.
40 years left in oil supply, make your money's worth.
Maybe this will encourage alternate energy sources, which are needed despirately.
My favourite: hydrogen fuel cell, nuclear fission (until we get solar, tidal, wind, wave, and nuclear fusion off the ground)

"40 years left in oil supply, make your money's worth."

They said that 30 years ago. :roll:

They have been saying it since the 1920s. When the US switched from coal ships to oil ships. Its what prompted the US to start the oil reserve, which originally was promptly sold off to Standard Oil. If people think the Bush and Clinton, or other recent admins, are corrupt or shady, etc, well they have nothing on most of the previous presidents. Presidents used to get away with murder, that might not just be figurtively either. Watergate and the coverup of water gate, were small potatoes to what went on before Nixon/LBJ/Kennedy.

But back on topic. "Experts" have been saying that oil would run out in "20 years" ever since the 20s. The oil was suppoed to be gone in the 70s, they said by the late 90s, etc. Now the currect prediction is 2020. And like in the past, its going to be wrong. Will oil run out? Yes, but not anytime soon, as technology advances, we will be able to tap more and more oil. The vast majority of the oil in the world, can not be tapped, with current technology. Sure the current tappable oil supply may run out by 2020/2030, but thats just a fraction of what the world holds.

What will the cost be of recovery? How will it be influenced by the huge increase in demands for energy? How will economies deal with the cost of gas being 15 dollars a gallon?

I like technology too. It progresses at it's own pace though. If you doubt, look for your thermonuclear power plant in a state near you. That problem too was to be fixed by technology 20 years ago.

Too big a risk to wait till the writing is on the wall. We need to invest heavily in the academic research of energy production.

 

[MrYogi]

the prices will probably come down just before the election 😀

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...

Crude oil at the highest levels since 1990.
Refinery capacity maxed.
More vehicles on the road (more and more of them less-efficient SUVs)
Summer-blend (MTBE-additive) gas coming up

What do you expect?

You forgot, several major refineries either arent online, or are at half capacity, due to accidents.

Well, this I could see having more impact than any. But what I don't understand is why isn't there a gasoline shortage then. And why hasn't the government built any new refineries in the past couple decades?

KK

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...

Crude oil at the highest levels since 1990.
Refinery capacity maxed.
More vehicles on the road (more and more of them less-efficient SUVs)
Summer-blend (MTBE-additive) gas coming up

What do you expect?

You forgot, several major refineries either arent online, or are at half capacity, due to accidents.

Well, this I could see having more impact than any. But what I don't understand is why isn't there a gasoline shortage then. And why hasn't the government built any new refineries in the past couple decades?

KK

You really don't want the government building refineries do you?

 

[Colt45]

I wouldnt bitch about $1,90.

Gas just went up to $2,55 here (USD / US gal)

But the kicker is - they pump the crap out of the ground about 200mi from here.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...

Crude oil at the highest levels since 1990.
Refinery capacity maxed.
More vehicles on the road (more and more of them less-efficient SUVs)
Summer-blend (MTBE-additive) gas coming up

What do you expect?

You forgot, several major refineries either arent online, or are at half capacity, due to accidents.

Ahhh, so you agree with the Sand Thugs that we have a glut of Oil overflowing all over the place.

Then how do you explain your beloved Gov't folk saying we have a shortage of Oil and that we are down by 3 million barrels from this time last year?

They both can't be right, one of them is lying.

The refineries cant keep up with the amount of oil, but the amount of oil we do have wouldnt be enough either. If all the refineries were online, gas prices would still be high because we are short, however, they would not be NEARLY as high. I honestly dont expect the national avg to top $2.00. It will get close, but it wont go over.

National average is up to $1.96 right now

Local stations all in the 2's here now with regular starting at $2.05

 

[earthman]

It is supply and demand. The free market. You believe in competition and the free market, right? So what are you complaining about? If it gets people to stop driving their fat-ass SUV's around, I'm all for it.

 

[myusername]

Cliffs Notes: Not a chance dude.. that would mean I would have to figure out what the hell I just wrote 🙂

I am curious about this and perhaps someone could offer their insight. Since it seems to me that since the law of supply and demand regulates R&D inasmuch as the first units of any kind of new technology are prohibitively expensive, what exactly could cause a paradigm shift in how we use energy sources?

If the government is not subsidizing and regulating alternative technologies, why would anyone adopt them? For example, even if gasoline goes up to $5 a gallon, most people with fast cars or big cars are not going to trade them in for a Toyota Echo (or whatever compact fuel efficient car you prefer). Instead they will bitch about prices, and if they need to, shift their budgeting to properly pay for their Chrysler LeBehemoth (props to Berke Breathed).

In other words, the only way to reduce consumption will be to reduce many people to a poverty level where they can no longer afford gasoline - which of course will be the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it.

I look at it like this: I am personally concerned about our natural resources. One of my concerns is the fresh water supply. I think that the government should subsidize and mandate water recycling in the household. But I haven't (and won't) spend the $$$ on the equipment to do it for myself (disregarding the fact I am an apartment dweller), and I will continue to take 20+ minute showers, because dammit that's just how long my showers take.

It's not that I'm a bad guy (well, I know some of you disagree with that by now), but I am accustomed to certain standards, and as a spoon fed american, I feel - at some level - that I have the right to do this. Mostly I just look at my surroundings and realize that even if I personally conserved water, it wouldn't even be a drop in the proverbial bucket.

I drive a 4wd vehicle. It's a small vehicle, but with my lead foot, I get about 14mpg around town (though I can hit 22 highway). About 2(I think?) years ago, I got a boner for the Subie WRX. I really don't make enough to safely afford it. My current vehicle is fully paid, so I decided that I would try to convince myself to buy it based on fuel efficiency. I calculated that even with my 13 mpg, I'm only spending $600 a year on gas. This was probably at $1.20/gal prices. Disregarding the fact that the WRX requires premium ($.30 gal more) and pretending that it gets 26mpg around town (when that is highway mileage), I've managed to allot a whopping $25/mo toward potential car payments. Double the price of gasoline, and I "save" $50 a month, although I'm spending the same amount of money on gas as before.

Let's be honest. I probably wouldn't drive a Volkswagen UberBioDieselFuelCellSuperCompactFitsInYourPocket eco car if someone gave it to me, assuming I could still afford the gasoline to power my current vehicle. Sure if I lived in some socialized country and everyone drove the same thing, and public transportation was fast, clean, and readily available .. I could handle that. Reality check: half the population of this country would fight the vision I've just described until their last breath - or until the chew ran out.

Now I'm trying not to be pessimistic, as according to the death clock it takes 20 years off my lifespan, but I would consider myself more environmentally aware than at least 90% of the American population - considering the illiteracy rate, that number is probably closer to 96% or higher.

At the end of the day I still drive an SUV, and can't rationally forsee anything that would change that. The real irony, of course, is that the only thing that would change the SUV driving habits of Americans - massive economic and social chaos - is the very fear which causes many people to purchase the pacifier/safety blanket of SUV's in the first place("Not that you would. But you could").

I have totally lost where I was coming from or going, but I think the point I was trying to make is that the only way - short of massive sociopoliticoeconomic failure (and we [mostly] don't want that) - that the consumption habits of Americans can be regulated only by the introduction of an alternate technology that either surpasses the current technology by leaps and bounds, and/or does so more cheaply. IOW, when they make an electric vehicle that performs on the level of the Subaru WRX and costs the same or less, only then will they have someone to purchase that car who has been stolen away from the gasoline demographic. (The above is used as illustration: you could substitute any make/model of vehicle, as long as you could match the salient qualities and the sticker)

 

[earthman]

Let's look at the facts. Most of the people who drive large trucks and SUVs or other fuel-inefficient vehicles have absolutely no need to. They could do fine in a small car. Judging by the huge number of empty pickups and large SUVs with one driver in them, I think that is an accurate statement. Let me clarify further. As someone who drives relatively large distances each year (over 50k) I think I should know better than anyone about fuel costs. Last year I spent almost $8000 on gas, and I have vowed never again. I have gotten rid of my truck, and my current car gets about 30mpg, and I will drive it till it falls apart. High prices WILL change peoples driving habits, because in the end I think they will choose to drive something smaller (and cheaper) than nothing at all. Let's look at another fact; if everyone drove a vehicle that got 30 mpg, we could just about end oil imports from the middle east. We could also end subsidies and the costs of military intervention there, since their politics would not affect our economy. How much money would that save?

Let's be honest. I probably wouldn't drive a Volkswagen UberBioDieselFuelCellSuperCompactFitsInYourPocket eco car if someone gave it to me, assuming I could still afford the gasoline to power my current vehicle.

Why? Because it wouldn't have enough prestige? Because it's not macho enough? When I hear that attitude, I kind of think we are going to get what we deserve. And have no doubt my friend, things ARE going to change. Our self-indulgent philosophy and lifestyle is going to blow up in our faces one of these days. One of the previous posters was dead right when he said that when India and China start ramping up demand, prices are going to skyrocket, and supply is going to dry up. It's true that there's lots of oil left in the world, but it's more and more difficult to get to, and the cost of extracting it will reach a point of diminishing returns quickly. Hydrogen? Forget it. Hydrogen is a net-loss fuel, it requires more energy to extract it than you get out of it, by a factor of about 5. The idea of large-scale hydrogen production replacing petroleum is ridiculous without a totally new infrastructure in electricity generation. Given that the electrical grid in this country is outdated, overloaded, and teetering on the brink of collapse in many areas, the whole idea is laughable. The same goes for Nuclear power. It takes decades to even build a plant, assuming you can get a license to do so, and nobody wants to store the waste from it. Fusion? Maybe in a hundred years, but by then global warming may have ended civilization as we know it anyway.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: earthman
Let's look at the facts. Most of the people who drive large trucks and SUVs or other fuel-inefficient vehicles have absolutely no need to. They could do fine in a small car. Judging by the huge number of empty pickups and large SUVs with one driver in them, I think that is an accurate statement. Let me clarify further. As someone who drives relatively large distances each year (over 50k) I think I should know better than anyone about fuel costs. Last year I spent almost $8000 on gas, and I have vowed never again. I have gotten rid of my truck, and my current car gets about 30mpg, and I will drive it till it falls apart. High prices WILL change peoples driving habits, because in the end I think they will choose to drive something smaller (and cheaper) than nothing at all. Let's look at another fact; if everyone drove a vehicle that got 30 mpg, we could just about end oil imports from the middle east. We could also end subsidies and the costs of military intervention there, since their politics would not affect our economy. How much money would that save?

But doesn't the same logic apply to people buying Corvettes, Mustang GTs, etc.? Not using them to their full capability and they have minimal cargo and passenger-carrying capabilities and get bad gas mileage, too.


At least that's the argument you get from SUV lovers. My rebuttal to that is that SUVs are specifically marketed to the lemmings. Look at the GMC/Chevy commercial: "It's not more than you need, it's more than you're used to." or something equally inane as that. Also, SUV sales far exceed that of the 2-seat sportster.

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
Nice to see a sector in which the US has no control over.
Good for you OPEC, it is your resource, exploit it.
40 years left in oil supply, make your money's worth.
Maybe this will encourage alternate energy sources, which are needed despirately.
My favourite: hydrogen fuel cell, nuclear fission (until we get solar, tidal, wind, wave, and nuclear fusion off the ground)

"40 years left in oil supply, make your money's worth."

They said that 30 years ago. :roll:

They have been saying it since the 1920s. When the US switched from coal ships to oil ships. Its what prompted the US to start the oil reserve, which originally was promptly sold off to Standard Oil. If people think the Bush and Clinton, or other recent admins, are corrupt or shady, etc, well they have nothing on most of the previous presidents. Presidents used to get away with murder, that might not just be figurtively either. Watergate and the coverup of water gate, were small potatoes to what went on before Nixon/LBJ/Kennedy.

But back on topic. "Experts" have been saying that oil would run out in "20 years" ever since the 20s. The oil was suppoed to be gone in the 70s, they said by the late 90s, etc. Now the currect prediction is 2020. And like in the past, its going to be wrong. Will oil run out? Yes, but not anytime soon, as technology advances, we will be able to tap more and more oil. The vast majority of the oil in the world, can not be tapped, with current technology. Sure the current tappable oil supply may run out by 2020/2030, but thats just a fraction of what the world holds.

Very true, very true... We've drilled three different spots and hit oil on our property three different times. It never was your stereotypical gusher and at the time it was drilled the cost to extract outweighed the profitability however, we were told to wait about 20 years for the technology to improve and then it would be profitable to extract the oil. (That was almost 15 years ago). The point is that the oil is there, it's just not that easy to get to...yet.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: earthman
Let's look at the facts. Most of the people who drive large trucks and SUVs or other fuel-inefficient vehicles have absolutely no need to. They could do fine in a small car. Judging by the huge number of empty pickups and large SUVs with one driver in them, I think that is an accurate statement. Let me clarify further. As someone who drives relatively large distances each year (over 50k) I think I should know better than anyone about fuel costs. Last year I spent almost $8000 on gas, and I have vowed never again. I have gotten rid of my truck, and my current car gets about 30mpg, and I will drive it till it falls apart. High prices WILL change peoples driving habits, because in the end I think they will choose to drive something smaller (and cheaper) than nothing at all. Let's look at another fact; if everyone drove a vehicle that got 30 mpg, we could just about end oil imports from the middle east. We could also end subsidies and the costs of military intervention there, since their politics would not affect our economy. How much money would that save?

But doesn't the same logic apply to people buying Corvettes, Mustang GTs, etc.? Not using them to their full capability and they have minimal cargo and passenger-carrying capabilities and get bad gas mileage, too.


At least that's the argument you get from SUV lovers. My rebuttal to that is that SUVs are specifically marketed to the lemmings. Look at the GMC/Chevy commercial: "It's not more than you need, it's more than you're used to." or something equally inane as that. Also, SUV sales far exceed that of the 2-seat sportster.

Mustang GT gets a decent gas milage and very very few people actually use the real gas-happy sportscars on daily basis (viper gets around 10ish, 'vette isnt too good either). Also there are far more SUVs on the road, as you said, than there are big displacement sportscars

 

[AcidicFury]

When has the administration ever straight-up answered a question? Answer: Never. Look at the Press Conference in early April. As a debator, that almost made me cry.

 

[Zebo]

Supply and demand. Geez.

When china has 1.4 Billion and india 1.1 Billion and they are becoming industrilized and drivers like we westerners are (only 700 million) the demand is greater and supply is basically static (Somewhat controlled by the cartels but even more so by geological consraits) the supply can't meet the demand and the prices rises accordingly. Basic economics folks. Plus the dollar anit worth as much on world markets so the price seem to rise even more for us Americans who use this dollar.

 

[earthman]

Actually India will be the most populous nation according to some projections, passing China sometime around 2045 with 1.55 billion people. Imagine 3 billion people driving around in Expeditions. By that time both countries will have GDPs that exceed the US.
Take a look at the demographics below. Do you really think we're going to be pushing people around and using 1/4 of the worlds oil in 2050?


World's Largest Countries in 2003

Rank....Country...........Population (millions)

1........China...............1,289
2........India................1,069
3........United States....292
4........Indonesia.........220
5........Brazil...............176
6........Pakistan...........149
7........Bangladesh.......147
8........Russia..............146
9........Nigeria.............134
10......Japan...............128
11......Mexico..............105
12......Germany...........83
13......Philippines.........82
14......Vietnam............81
15......Egypt................72
16......Turkey..............71
17......Ethiopia............ 71
18......Iran..................67
19......Thailand............63
20......France...............60



World's Largest Countries in 2050

Rank......Country...........Population (millions)

1........India..................1,628
2........China.................1,394
3........United States..... 422
4........Pakistan.............349
5........Indonesia...........316
6........Nigeria...............307
7........Bangladesh........255
8........Brazil.................221
9........Congo................181
10......Ethiopia..............173
11......Mexico...............153
12......Philippines..........133
13......Egypt.................127
14......Russia................119
15......Vietnam.............117
16......Japan.................101
17......Turkey...............98
18......Iran...................96
19......Sudan................84
20......Uganda..............82

 

[ianbergman]

Originally posted by: KK
CNN Link.

It seems like they find every damn excuse in the books to raise the price of gas. I believe their needs to something done to open the books for these oil companies to find out what's going on. They blame this 10 cent rise on people driving more. What kind of bullsh1t is that? Just because people aren't buying enough heating gas, let's jack the price of gasoline. I haven't drove anymore this week then I have any other fvcking week of my life, and I doubt 99% of the population haven't either.

This isn't going in Daves gas thread because I want an answer and no one reads Dave's threads anymore. 😛

I want an explanation of why gas prices are going up? And don't give me supply and demand bullsh1t..

KK

I'm posting this without bothering to read to see how many other people have mentione this, but... US gas prices are still so far below the rest of the world that I have a bit of trouble complaining about them going up. I mean, there's lots of other price increases to complain about (skyrocketing insurance, anyone?). But that's just me.

 

[earthman]

US gas prices are still so far below the rest of the world that I have a bit of trouble complaining about them going up

Thats right, in alot of countries it's hovering around 5-6 dollars a gallon, and no one's complaining much. Fuel taxes here are relatively low. I think the average UK price at the current exchange rate is about $5.35 per US gallon if my math is right.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I think this quote from Good Will Hunting fits the situation well-

Why shouldn't I work for the N.S.A.? That's a tough one, but I'll give it a shot. Say I'm working at N.S.A. Somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. So I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I'm real happy with myself, 'cause I did my job well. But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never had a problem with get killed. Now the politicians are sayin', "Send in the marines to secure the area" 'cause they don't give a sh*t. It won't be their kid over there, gettin' shot. Just like it wasn't them when their number was called, 'cause they were pullin' a tour in the National Guard. It'll be some guy from Southie takin' shrapnel in the a$$. And he comes home to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, 'cause he'll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks.

Meanwhile my buddy from Southie realizes the only reason he was over there was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And of course the oil companies used the skirmish to scare up oil prices so they could turn a quick buck. A cute little ancillary benefit for them but it ain't helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And naturally they're takin' their sweet time bringin' the oil back, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain't too long 'til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic. So my buddy's out of work and he can't afford to drive, so he's got to walk to the job interviews, which sucks 'cause the shrapnel in his a$$ is givin' him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he's starvin' 'cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat the only blue plate special they're servin' is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State. So what do I think? I'm holdin' out for somethin' better. Why not just shoot my buddy, take his job and give it to his sworn enemy,hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the ha$h pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president.

Scary how well it speaks to the current job outsourcing, oil price hikes, avoidance of combat through national guard service, and $2.50 a gallon gas pricing eh?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: earthman

US gas prices are still so far below the rest of the world that I have a bit of trouble complaining about them going up

Thats right, in alot of countries it's hovering around 5-6 dollars a gallon, and no one's complaining much. Fuel taxes here are relatively low. I think the average UK price at the current exchange rate is about $5.35 per US gallon if my math is right.

No wonder you Euro dudes kick our ass in mountain biking! You can't afford to drive so you live on your bikes 😉

 

[klah]

Originally posted by: halikMustang GT gets a decent gas milage and very very few people actually use the real gas-happy sportscars on daily basis (viper gets around 10ish, 'vette isnt too good either). Also there are far more SUVs on the road, as you said, than there are big displacement sportscars

The Corvette coupe w/manual is rated at 19/28(city/hwy). That's the same as my little BMW sedan.

The only infinite source of energy we currently have(capable of generating 1000's of MW) is nuclear, so we better start breaking ground on some new reactors.

Does anyone know how many new reactors we would need to generate enough hydrogen with current techniques to replace 25% of our oil use? 50%, 75%, 100%? How many new nuclear reactors would each scenario require? I am sure someone here can scrounge up the relevant figures.