Why can't Christianity and Evolution get along?

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: RedBeard
I created this thread to asked literal believing christians why they cannot accept evolution at all.

Well the excerpt from your OP sure sounded awfully matter-of-fact. Can you explain how you objectively decided that God couldn't be trusted in his alleged handiwork but apparently could be trusted in his alleged word?

Of course I believe God's word can be trusted. Items/beings created with the appearance of age seems to be the theme here.

You didn't answer my question. How did you decide that it was the alleged word that could be trusted but not reality? How do you know that the Bible wasn't created with false appearances like the rest of the world? Why would you trust a God that would say that hings are one way, but make them appear convincingly to be another?

No they won't. You've locked your mind up in an unfalsifiable box. There is no evidence for which you cannot declare "God just made it so it would seem that way."

You misunderstand. I believe God created. Exactly how this happened, well I am not sure.

When you stated that things were created with false appearances, you seemed quite sure. Where were we supposed to gather any ideas that you were uncertain in your OP? You said, "so therefore the earth and the universe was created with the appearance of age." That sounds like a statement of alleged fact, not a hypothesis. Are you now retracting it?

{snip}

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: RedBeard
I believe in a literal weeklong creation.

So therefore the earth and the universe was created with the appearance of age.
I believe Adam and Eve were also created as mature (physically). I don't think they started as babies.

So why can't evolution co-exist with christianity? Why couldn't evolution be a natural process? I understand the debate for/against evolution is mostly political (on both sides).

You cannot believe in both a literal creation and evolutionary processes because both are in direct contradiction to each other. God created man and the entire animal kingdom in less than a week, according to the Bible; there is no way you can fit the "evolution" of the universe, let alone the human race, in with that time frame no matter how hard you try. If evolution is to be accepted in accordance with the Bible, the first thing you need to do is make the creation week allegorical by changing it to the "creation era." But once you've done that, once you've manipulated the Bible to fit your beliefs, you've placed yourself on a weak foundation in which anything and everything can and will be challenged. You have essentially placed your authority over the authority of God himself, removing that ground work which serves to give the Christian unshaken boldness and fortitude.

There is nobody that does not interpret the Bible individually. It does not follow that a person has "manipulated the Bible to fit your beliefs" from the fact that his interpretation of it differs from yours.

Originally posted by: RedBeard
So if evolution was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt does that mean the bible is completely wrong? I don't think so.

The funny thing about the Christian faith is that you can only either believe it in full, or not believe it at all. (I speak in reference to faith, not historical validity.) There is no way you can make the Genesis account fit with evolution. You just can't. But to those Christians with weak faith, it's much easier to avoid ridicule ("Bush-voting-red necked-geocentric-fundamentalist-idiot") by accepting what men would rather have you accept than to have the tremendous faith required to believe God's spoken word. So go ahead, ignore God and place your faith in science, but don't think for a second that you can manipulate Christianity to fit the puzzle.

You are not the sole decider of what is or is not "True Christianity."

A Christian who is well-rooted in his faith and who accepts the Bible as God's unerring word, will realize that Satan will attempt to destroy Christianity in any way he possibly can, and that the theory of evolution is just another way to accomplish this goal.

HAHAHA!!! I think you've got your tinfoil hat on a little too snug. 😀

Originally posted by: RedBeard
To say that God could not have used evolution as a tool limits him.

Oh sure, because an omnipotent, omniscient God has to resort to haphazard, unpredictable tools to accomplish his tasks for him.

Why couldn't he? Who are you to judge God's means?

It's much more impressive to say that we were products of chance rather than the intricately designed creations of a God who can hold the universe in his hand.

Evolution is not "chance" you dolt. It isn't an accident that those organisms best fit to reproduce in their environment actually succeed in doing so.

Originally posted by: RedBeard
But at the end of the day I *REALLY* don't think this debate is worth all the time and effort that it currently receives from christians.

Oh yes it is! To say otherwise indicates that you do not have the capacity or desire to defend yourself from the inevitable challenges against your beliefs.

Evolution does not challenge the beliefs of all Christians. It only challenges the beliefs of the ignorant and narrow-minded ones.

*awaits ridicule and insult*

Your statements receive the treatment they deserve.

 

[dawks]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
This view is somewhat similar to my own. I believe there was a big bang that served as the seed that sprouted into our universe. And that the universe as we know it today naturally evolved from there. But who or what created and planted that seed? Where did it come from? So far science has not shown us that. It has not shown us where it all came from? How did we get from there being "nothing" to there being "something?" Is it so unreasonable to believe that a God could have created the seed that exploded into the big bang and that that seed contained the "DNA" of the universe we live in? And that the universe is evolving in accordance with that DNA blueprint just as God intended it to?

So if we have no way currently of proving how the 'big-bang' was started, how can you think God did it? Just because someone decided to write a book about a mythical person, whom no one alive can prove exists, in any real fashion, doesn't mean they actually exist. Can you in any way prove someone created and currently 'watches over' everything? No. But science can prove repeatedly in many different forms that and how evolution works. You can't prove in any such form that 'creationism' works other then ridiculous theories that have been taught to you.

For example, I go to school and learn the 1 + 1 = 2. I can come home and take 1 apple and add it to another apple and now I have 2. Or I can learn that electricity is the flow of electrons moving through a conductor. I can go anywhere, apply a current to a wire, and use equipment to show the electrons moving. I can prove those facts. A 'Christian' cannot prove to me that god created man, and earth.

Shrug.. I don't know why I waste my time on this. I guess I still have a glimmer of hope that someday more people will wake up and realize religion is nothing but a fraud. Its on of the biggest problems with society today. So many childish conflicts will be done away with once science is accepted as the norm.

 

[MiniDoom]

I can?t speak for Christians and don?t really want to bash them, but the very first sentence of my bible says,
?We begin the study of the Torah with the realization that the Torah is not a history book, but a charter of mans mission in the universe.? I don?t have a scanner and don?t feel like typing more so that?s all you all get right now. This is more of a spiritual guide to happiness and life and struggle that stood the test of time.
That is the first part of the rabbinic interpretation of Genesis or Bereishis. I was raised Christian (have Jewish in my dads family whom converted to Christians), but I had a problem with religion (most Christianity) for a long time and was agnostic for most of my life (don?t like the, believe what I do or hell thing), Then learned of other religions like Judaism and Buddhism and Sikhism, so on. I feel sorry, but understand why/for people who put most or all religions in one category. There can be so much more to life than work and material objects. Spirituality can/is a great thing when you discover it. And I think we do have a spirit or energy that defines us. Why would Identical twins be total opposites? And Science (Newton I believe) did teach us that energy can?t be destroyed but only displaced. So if we have spirit, why not a ?creator?? and what happens after life?...Weather you are Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindi or Muslim. You can learn to be content with nothing. I think that?s great. And most other religions don?t threaten you for not being what they are or even try to answer what happens after you die (cause no one knows), But to discover your spiritual side. I think if everyone was spiritually enlightened we would have ?heaven here on earth?. Do you evangelicals really believe Gondi is in hell? I sure don?t. I don?t even believe in hell. I think life is one big puzzle, everyone has a different one. Some things like science can put a few pieces of this puzzle in place, others like Islam or Sikhism or whatever can add a few more pieces. The end result is, you paint you picture. It would be nice to finish before your time is up. ? I don?t follow many Mitzvahs (laws) or really understand many (no cheeseburgers? WTF!). But I certainly don?t think God punishes people for that. Anyways that is just my opinion. And it?s meaningless. That?s why I usually stay away from politics and religion. Just don?t be afraid to look at new things. You probably wont burn in hell for it..
PS ? If Jesus was Jewish and believed in God and followed Jewish law, then why is it ok for Christians not to now? I don?t think he would have wanted that IMHO.

 

[RedBeard]

Originally posted by: Garth
When you stated that things were created with false appearances, you seemed quite sure. Where were we supposed to gather any ideas that you were uncertain in your OP? You said, "so therefore the earth and the universe was created with the appearance of age." That sounds like a statement of alleged fact, not a hypothesis. Are you now retracting it?

The original post's wording does seem alot stronger than I intended. It was a thought I had while attempting to reconcile scientific theories with my faith. (it seems to sound more like a scientific proof) I certainly don't want to sound like I know everything 🙂 (or sound arrogant) I think it is possible to be a christian and still be open minded. I also appreciate your informative and civil responses.

Looks like I might not make any sense at all! (but I am okay with that, got to work towards something)

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Garth
There is nobody that does not interpret the Bible individually. It does not follow that a person has "manipulated the Bible to fit your beliefs" from the fact that his interpretation of it differs from yours.

Big revelation to follow (!) ----> The Bible is the benchmark, Garth, not I. Everyone will have a slightly different interpretation, but if your interpretation makes obvious contradiction with the Bible, than it is manipulation.

Originally posted by: Garth
You are not the sole decider of what is or is not "True Christianity."

Oh wait....this seems familiar.....let me see here, the Bible (big shock, I know) is the indicator of true Christianity because it is what gave us Christianity in the first place. Go figure.

Originally posted by: Garth
HAHAHA!!! I think you've got your tinfoil hat on a little too snug. 😀

Who the hell do you think Christians believe God and Satan are?!? :roll:

Originally posted by: Garth
Why couldn't he? Who are you to judge God's means?

Let's see here....

1.) God authors Bible
2.) Bible says God created universe in seven days
3.) Garth says "Why couldn't he [use evolutionary processes]? Who are you to judge God's means?"
4.) *blank stare*

Originally posted by: Garth
Evolution is not "chance" you dolt.

OK

Originally posted by: Garth
It isn't an accident that those organisms best fit to reproduce in their environment actually succeed in doing so.

.....but that's not evolution

Originally posted by: Garth
Evolution does not challenge the beliefs of all Christians. It only challenges the beliefs of the ignorant and narrow-minded ones.

And I bet those "narrow-minded ones" are defined by your opinion, am I right?

*Ding*

 

[PowerEngineer]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: RedBeard
This thread was created more for chrisitans. It just seems that the christians who believe in literal interpretation of scripture think that evolution is heresy.

OP, since you said this thread was created for Christians, I'll give you my opinion as a Christian in addition to the scientific arguments for Creation I have raised.

It is not merely a matter of somehow making the Bible compatible with evolution. The idea that the earth, that life itself somehow created itself is not a new idea. It did not begin with Darwin or even Lamarck or even Lyell. This type of philosophy goes back to the Greeks. It was just that for the first time, Darwin proposed a plausible mechanism...

In the Bible, when man sinned against God, death entered the world. "Dieing you shall die," reads the original Hebrew. You see, this is a foundational part of Christianity. In the beginning, the world was perfect, by our own action it was corrupted, and only through Christ can it be restored. That is the promise of the Bible -- that God will return to restore the world.

On the contrary, evolution purports that death is not an intrusion, but at the very heart of existence. Indeed, by the death of the inferior organisms all of life was built up. Not only does this destroy the very concept of man's rebellion (and the origin of sin), but it uproots the promise of God and the importance of Christ.

So you see, it is not just a matter of the science, there are extreme profound differences between these two philosophies on the nature of life and death. They cannot be harmonized in any meaningful way without devaluing the foundations of Christianity.

With that in mind, people will say that "Evolution happens all the time!", but they don't mean the type of evolution that I'm objecting to hear. They usually are just talking about natural selection in almost all cases -- but no one objects to that.

An interesting response to the OP's original question. I do want to observe, however, that your desire to uphold the "foundations of Christianity" predisposses you to pursue only those "scientific" ideas that lead to the outcome you have already chosen on faith. IMHO it's the fatal flaw in so-called "creation science" and "intelligent design".

I'll agree it can be fairly claimed that some on the evolutionary "band wagon" are just as dogmatic. And they are equally guilty of bad science.

Science is best served by impartial collection and organizing of observations, and by imaginative testable theories attempting to explain the observations. The theory that best fits our observations is the one we use until a better one comes along. We are not allowed to pick and choose our observations or to discard theories we dislike.

The fossil evidence provides very convincing support for the theory that life evolved through many forms over a long period of time. We have much less to go on when it comes to how life actually started and what mechanisms drove its evolution, but it's hard to argue that evolution didn't happen. It really doesn't matter whether we "like" evolution or not -- it's the best scientific explanation we have for the observations we've made.

If people want to believe in biblical creation, I guess I have to accept that because there's no argument I can make that can/should change a faith-based belief. I do object to people with faith-based beliefs trying to disguise them in pseudo-science costumes (like "creation science" and "intelligent design"). Just be honest with us (and yourselves) -- tell us your belief has nothing to do with science. (Not meant as an attack on you; just a bit of a general rant on my part.)

 

[RedBeard]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: RedBeard
This thread was created more for chrisitans. It just seems that the christians who believe in literal interpretation of scripture think that evolution is heresy.

So you see, it is not just a matter of the science, there are extreme profound differences between these two philosophies on the nature of life and death. They cannot be harmonized in any meaningful way without devaluing the foundations of Christianity.

Hmmm, I never really saw it like that. I appreciate your interesting input. I never saw it as a life/death philosophy.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Garth
There is nobody that does not interpret the Bible individually. It does not follow that a person has "manipulated the Bible to fit your beliefs" from the fact that his interpretation of it differs from yours.

Big revelation to follow (!) ----> The Bible is the benchmark, Garth, not I. Everyone will have a slightly different interpretation, but if your interpretation makes obvious contradiction with the Bible, than it is manipulation.

People that interpret Genesis allegorically do not contradict it, however, so your point is refuted nonetheless.

Originally posted by: Garth
You are not the sole decider of what is or is not "True Christianity."

Oh wait....this seems familiar.....let me see here, the Bible (big shock, I know) is the indicator of true Christianity because it is what gave us Christianity in the first place. Go figure.

Actually, historically, it was the Council of Nicea that gave us Christianity as we know it today -- but you've never been too concerned with the facts anyway. That doesn't detract from the point that you and your interpretation are not the final word on what a true christian is.

Originally posted by: Garth
HAHAHA!!! I think you've got your tinfoil hat on a little too snug. 😀

Who the hell do you think Christians believe God and Satan are?!? :roll:

It doesn't matter. That you think evolution is some giant conspiracy perpetrated by Satan is simply laughable and indicative of the crazy things literalist Christians are compelled to believe in order to maintain their absurd positions.

Originally posted by: Garth
Why couldn't he? Who are you to judge God's means?

Let's see here....

1.) God authors Bible
2.) Bible says God created universe in seven days
3.) Garth says "Why couldn't he [use evolutionary processes]? Who are you to judge God's means?"
4.) *blank stare*

You didn't answer the question. Typical.

{snip}

Originally posted by: Garth
It isn't an accident that those organisms best fit to reproduce in their environment actually succeed in doing so.

.....but that's not evolution

Yes it is.

Originally posted by: Garth
Evolution does not challenge the beliefs of all Christians. It only challenges the beliefs of the ignorant and narrow-minded ones.

And I bet those "narrow-minded ones" are defined by your opinion, am I right?

No they are defined by the blatant facts that they irrationally deny.

 

[RedBeard]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
You cannot believe in both a literal creation and evolutionary processes because both are in direct contradiction to each other. God created man and the entire animal kingdom in less than a week, according to the Bible; there is no way you can fit the "evolution" of the universe, let alone the human race, in with that time frame no matter how hard you try. If evolution is to be accepted in accordance with the Bible, the first thing you need to do is make the creation week allegorical by changing it to the "creation era." But once you've done that, once you've manipulated the Bible to fit your beliefs, you've placed yourself on a weak foundation in which anything and everything can and will be challenged. You have essentially placed your authority over the authority of God himself, removing that ground work which serves to give the Christian unshaken boldness and fortitude.

Yikes! I am just throwing some thought around here. But I still don't understand. If God created Adam and Eve as mature beings why not the earth itself?

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: RedBeard
But at the end of the day I *REALLY* don't think this debate is worth all the time and effort that it currently receives from christians.

Oh yes it is! To say otherwise indicates that you do not have the capacity or desire to defend yourself from the inevitable challenges against your beliefs.
*awaits ridicule and insult*

But it bothers me how some christians make this their central issue. I just don't see evolution as a serious challenge to my beliefs. I must be missing something here. But how can I possible convince people who do not believe the bible is true.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: RedBeard
I believe in a literal weeklong creation.

So therefore the earth and the universe was created with the appearance of age.
I believe Adam and Eve were also created as mature (physically). I don't think they started as babies.

So why can't evolution co-exist with christianity? Why couldn't evolution be a natural process? I understand the debate for/against evolution is mostly political (on both sides).

So if evolution was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt does that mean the bible is completely wrong? I don't think so. To say that God could not have used evolution as a tool limits him.

But at the end of the day I *REALLY* don't think this debate is worth all the time and effort that it currently receives from christians.

When the bible was written there was no "appearance of age", or at least there was no means by which the earth's age could be convincingly divined. There really was no question about it. The earth was as old as god said it was and nobody had the knowledge or tools to say otherwise. What I'm saying is that the bible has been interpreted literally from the time of its conception up until we gained the tools to reveal the evidence that contradicted many parts of it. All of this scrambling to reconcile scripture with science is US making up stuff to please ourselves. There is no passage in the bible that says that God created the world to seem older than it is. You and many others made that up to make your faith fit the evidence that is so plain and easily explained that it demands some sort or response.

Evolution is not compatible with Creationism for the simple reason that it works on a timeline that is not supported by the bible. Creationists (for the most part) understand this and, unable to relinquish their literal interpretation of the bible, naturally find themselves in opposition to it. Arguments like "What if a day isn't literally a day in genesis"? don't work for these people because the bible explicitly defines a day to be a cycle of light and darkness. Arguments like "God made the world in seven days, but he made it appear to be older than it is and after his creation he made life continue the process that seemed to have happened over millions of years except that it happened in seven days". don't work because the bible doesn't say any of that. The people who believe that made it up to support their beliefs.