Why Canadian banks are doing it right

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yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: silverpig
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Vic
There was a housing bubble in much of Canada too.
:confused:

In what city? To what extent? The values have dropped by 10% at most here in Toronto. Perhaps there is the odd town or whatever that had a bigger drop than that, but as a whole you can't even call what we've experienced a "bubble".

Look further west to Vancouver, drops are even more significant.

No, it's about the same here.

Look at Japan in the early 90s for a housing bubble. Prices dropped over 80%.

By and large, houses here are fairly well valued, it's all the stupid little 465 sq ft 1 bedroom condos in yaletown going for $425k that are overpriced. The condo market will crash harder than the housing market.

There's a 625 sqft condo in my building (very very downtown Toronto) that was asking $295k two months ago. It's now down to $265k, I believe, but that's still complete bull.

According to this New York Times Buy/Rent calculator it wouldn't be sensible for anyone like me to buy anyways... Though piling that mortgage payment into stocks probably isn't that bright right now either. :p
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: soulcougher73
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If we only needed to have 1 tank due to our big brother protecting us, we could run a surplus every year too.

Maybe if we stopped trying to police the world we could get by with 1 tank as well. But we have too many haters now because of this, so now we need more tanks.

Yes, and then maybe you can ride away on your magic unicorn into a rainbow. Then we can sing kumbaya around the campfire and call it a day. Dont forget to buy everyone in the world a puppy.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Screw Canada !! Look closer to home at North Dakota. Their banks stayed out of the housing mortgage fiasco and they are running a surplus.

thats pretty easy when most of your banks business is with farmers sucking the government teat

Not to mention that no one in their right mind woudl want to build a house here anyways, outside of fargo that is.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
HAS the world turned upside down? America, the capital of capitalism, is pondering nationalizing a handful of banks. Meanwhile, Canada, whose banking system had long been notorious for its stodgy practices and government coddling, is now being celebrated for those very qualities.

Old time values like we used to practice, highly regulated, few chartered banks, no foreign, sound lending make Canada's banks #1 in the world right now while we are 40th, like a banana republics. Canada also runs govt surplus for years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...28tedesco.html?_r=2&em

Yes, old fashioned stuff that works. Amazing. I guess all those bankers in Canada didn't want to 'get rich quick'. They must have a dearth of Libertarian Economists running their banks.... :)

-Robert

 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If we only needed to have 1 tank due to our big brother protecting us, we could run a surplus every year too.

If we didn't send troops to put out every smoking fireplace on this blue planet we might have a few quid to rub together too.

-Robert
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Canadians are just a bit behind the curve with their own housing market correction, much like a number of areas in the US (i.e. the Pacific NW). Rest assured though, it's coming.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...nm/canada_us_housing_6

Canada housing market droops, more pressure seen

By Ka Yan Ng Ka Yan Ng ? Mon Feb 9, 2:18 pm ET

TORONTO (Reuters) ? Canadian housing starts fell more than expected in January and the downtrend in sales of existing homes will became sharper, reports said on Monday as the country's economic gloom deepened.

House starts dropped 11 percent in January from December to a seasonally adjusted annualized rate of 153,500 units from 172,200 in December, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp said.

That was below the average expectations of analysts for 169,000 starts. The December figure was revised lower from 177,300 units reported last month.

"The Canadian housing correction is in full swing, having a wide impact across the country," said economist Robert Kavcic at BMO Capital Markets Economics. "With sales activity showing no sign of life, residential construction will be under pressure for most of 2009."

Meanwhile, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) forecast on Monday that sales of existing homes will drop 16.9 percent to 360,900 units in 2009 following a 17.1 percent tumble in 2008.

That will bring national home sales made through real estate agents to the lowest level since 2000, CREA said.

"To a certain extent, the decline in housing starts coincides with recent developments in the existing home market," said Bob Dugan, CMHC's chief economist. "Reduced sales and increased listings in the existing home market have led to reduced spillover demand in the new home market."

On average, CREA sees average home prices falling 8 percent this year to C$279,400 ($229,016) from C$303,594 in 2008. The price decline will be sharpest in the Western provinces and Ontario. But CREA sees prices rising 4.8 percent in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

CREA said a deteriorating jobs market is putting pressure on the housing market. Last week, Statistics Canada said the economy shed a record 129,000 jobs in January, cutting at already-fragile consumer confidence.

"We are caught in a cycle where consumer confidence has been eroded because of job losses, and consumer confidence is an essential ingredient for housing sales activity," said Calvin Lindberg, CREA's president.

Urban single family house starts fell 20.2 percent to 50,000 in January from 62,700 the month before, almost double the decline recorded by the often-volatile urban multiple homes segment. New construction of multiple dwellings, such as condos, fell 12.2 percent to 76,700 units from 87,400 in December.

The sharp drop in single-home starts, generally a stable predictor of residential housing activity, could foreshadow weak real GDP growth in the first quarter, economists said.

Rural starts were estimated at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 26,800 units in January.

All five major regions showed declines in housing starts, with the largest percentage drop in the Western provinces. In the Prairie region, starts fell 30.3 percent, while in British Columbia they dropped 29.1 percent.

CREA said it expects existing home sales to rebound by 9.9 percent to 396,600 units in 2010, with the average home price forecast to rise 1.1 percent to C$282,400.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Canadians are just a bit behind the curve with their own housing market correction, much like a number of areas in the US (i.e. the Pacific NW). Rest assured though, it's coming.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...nm/canada_us_housing_6

Canada housing market droops, more pressure seen

By Ka Yan Ng Ka Yan Ng ? Mon Feb 9, 2:18 pm ET

TORONTO (Reuters) ? Canadian housing starts fell more than expected in January and the downtrend in sales of existing homes will became sharper, reports said on Monday as the country's economic gloom deepened.

House starts dropped 11 percent in January from December to a seasonally adjusted annualized rate of 153,500 units from 172,200 in December, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp said.

That was below the average expectations of analysts for 169,000 starts. The December figure was revised lower from 177,300 units reported last month.

"The Canadian housing correction is in full swing, having a wide impact across the country," said economist Robert Kavcic at BMO Capital Markets Economics. "With sales activity showing no sign of life, residential construction will be under pressure for most of 2009."

Meanwhile, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) forecast on Monday that sales of existing homes will drop 16.9 percent to 360,900 units in 2009 following a 17.1 percent tumble in 2008.

That will bring national home sales made through real estate agents to the lowest level since 2000, CREA said.

"To a certain extent, the decline in housing starts coincides with recent developments in the existing home market," said Bob Dugan, CMHC's chief economist. "Reduced sales and increased listings in the existing home market have led to reduced spillover demand in the new home market."

On average, CREA sees average home prices falling 8 percent this year to C$279,400 ($229,016) from C$303,594 in 2008. The price decline will be sharpest in the Western provinces and Ontario. But CREA sees prices rising 4.8 percent in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

CREA said a deteriorating jobs market is putting pressure on the housing market. Last week, Statistics Canada said the economy shed a record 129,000 jobs in January, cutting at already-fragile consumer confidence.

"We are caught in a cycle where consumer confidence has been eroded because of job losses, and consumer confidence is an essential ingredient for housing sales activity," said Calvin Lindberg, CREA's president.

Urban single family house starts fell 20.2 percent to 50,000 in January from 62,700 the month before, almost double the decline recorded by the often-volatile urban multiple homes segment. New construction of multiple dwellings, such as condos, fell 12.2 percent to 76,700 units from 87,400 in December.

The sharp drop in single-home starts, generally a stable predictor of residential housing activity, could foreshadow weak real GDP growth in the first quarter, economists said.

Rural starts were estimated at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 26,800 units in January.

All five major regions showed declines in housing starts, with the largest percentage drop in the Western provinces. In the Prairie region, starts fell 30.3 percent, while in British Columbia they dropped 29.1 percent.

CREA said it expects existing home sales to rebound by 9.9 percent to 396,600 units in 2010, with the average home price forecast to rise 1.1 percent to C$282,400.

Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
I think the former Indian Reserve Bank Chief Y.V.Reddy had the best take on the issue when an Indian banking head said of him: ?He basically believed that if bankers were given the opportunity to sin, they would sin".

Why this simple truth went out of the window in the U.S. is simply beyond me. Especially after the Savings and Loan scandal of the '80s.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
federally regulated banks? b-b-b-b-ut that's s-s-s-s-socialism!

*doesn't care if it works, votes republican*
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.

Good point, but Canadians are a lot more careful than Americans about money. They are naturally a bit stoic and old fashioned. I'd say boring, but I wouldn't want to tell the truth and hurt anyone's feelings. ;)

-Robert

 

Firebot

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2005
1,476
2
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.

Houses in Canada weren't artificially inflated like in the US with subprime mortgages which pretty much depended on the value of homes increasing to stay afloat. Mortgage rates in Canada are much more prudent, and people who cannot afford a home simply can't get one period, lowering the potential market.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Originally posted by: tvarad
I think the former Indian Reserve Bank Chief Y.V.Reddy had the best take on the issue when an Indian banking head said of him: ?He basically believed that if bankers were given the opportunity to sin, they would sin".

Why this simple truth went out of the window in the U.S. is simply beyond me. Especially after the Savings and Loan scandal of the '80s.
Yup, aren't India's banks doing pretty good during this crisis as well? IIRC Reddy just flat out told them he wasn't going to let Indian banks expose themselves to securitization and some of the other risky investments originating on Wall St.

Of course when the times were good Indian bankers were drooling at the profits US banks pulled in and pressuring the govt to relax regulations so they could get in on the action as well. Fortunately the RBI had the foresight to see how risky these investments were and prevented their financial sector from getting too involved.

Amazing what a little regulation can do.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Firebot
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.

Houses in Canada weren't artificially inflated like in the US with subprime mortgages which pretty much depended on the value of homes increasing to stay afloat. Mortgage rates in Canada are much more prudent, and people who cannot afford a home simply can't get one period, lowering the potential market.

Are you serious? Or even know what you're talking about? The average sales price of a house in Canada is as high or higher as in the US at the height of the housing boom, even when adjusted for the currency difference. It didn't get that way because Canucks make more money than Americans, because they don't. It got that way because Canadians were buying (and were able to buy) more home than they could afford, ideological/nationalistic nonsense to the contrary notwithstanding.

Plus, without the US economy, Canada doesn't have an economy. Period.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,861
6,396
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Firebot
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.

Houses in Canada weren't artificially inflated like in the US with subprime mortgages which pretty much depended on the value of homes increasing to stay afloat. Mortgage rates in Canada are much more prudent, and people who cannot afford a home simply can't get one period, lowering the potential market.

Are you serious? Or even know what you're talking about? The average sales price of a house in Canada is as high or higher as in the US at the height of the housing boom, even when adjusted for the currency difference. It didn't get that way because Canucks make more money than Americans, because they don't. It got that way because Canadians were buying (and were able to buy) more home than they could afford, ideological/nationalistic nonsense to the contrary notwithstanding.

Plus, without the US economy, Canada doesn't have an economy. Period.

You're wrong on this issue. Canada's Housing Prices have nothing in common with the US Bubble. A correction is due, but the situation is not the same as the US situation.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Firebot
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.

Houses in Canada weren't artificially inflated like in the US with subprime mortgages which pretty much depended on the value of homes increasing to stay afloat. Mortgage rates in Canada are much more prudent, and people who cannot afford a home simply can't get one period, lowering the potential market.

Are you serious? Or even know what you're talking about? The average sales price of a house in Canada is as high or higher as in the US at the height of the housing boom, even when adjusted for the currency difference. It didn't get that way because Canucks make more money than Americans, because they don't. It got that way because Canadians were buying (and were able to buy) more home than they could afford, ideological/nationalistic nonsense to the contrary notwithstanding.

Plus, without the US economy, Canada doesn't have an economy. Period.

You're wrong on this issue. Canada's Housing Prices have nothing in common with the US Bubble. A correction is due, but the situation is not the same as the US situation.

How so?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,861
6,396
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Firebot
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: chess9
Looks like a short term blip for them. (Ok, slightly bigger than a blip, and more like a sag. :) ) The last paragraph seems hopeful. I'll bet our home prices won't be rising on January 1, 2010.

-Robert

The NAR here in America was similarly hopeful a year ago. Don't count it.

Houses in Canada weren't artificially inflated like in the US with subprime mortgages which pretty much depended on the value of homes increasing to stay afloat. Mortgage rates in Canada are much more prudent, and people who cannot afford a home simply can't get one period, lowering the potential market.

Are you serious? Or even know what you're talking about? The average sales price of a house in Canada is as high or higher as in the US at the height of the housing boom, even when adjusted for the currency difference. It didn't get that way because Canucks make more money than Americans, because they don't. It got that way because Canadians were buying (and were able to buy) more home than they could afford, ideological/nationalistic nonsense to the contrary notwithstanding.

Plus, without the US economy, Canada doesn't have an economy. Period.

You're wrong on this issue. Canada's Housing Prices have nothing in common with the US Bubble. A correction is due, but the situation is not the same as the US situation.

How so?

The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: sandorski
[The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans

1) wrong
2) wrong

Where'd your banks get their money to lend again, BTW?...

edit: granted, you guys didn't have the cash-out refi frenzy we had here.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,861
6,396
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
[The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans

1) wrong
2) wrong

Where'd your banks get their money to lend again, BTW?...

edit: granted, you guys didn't have the cash-out refi frenzy we had here.

Central Bank/Profits/Deposits

Not sure why you say my points are "wrong", those are the 2 things that sets the US Bubble apart.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
[The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans

1) wrong
2) wrong

Where'd your banks get their money to lend again, BTW?...

edit: granted, you guys didn't have the cash-out refi frenzy we had here.

Central Bank/Profits/Deposits

Not sure why you say my points are "wrong", those are the 2 things that sets the US Bubble apart.

So what sets the British housing bubble apart? (and it's as bad or worse than what's going on in California or Florida).

And sorry, but there was speculation, and a govt loan to subprime borrowers is still a subprime loan. Technically speaking, there still is subprime lending in the US still, they're just FHA only now.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Plus, without the US economy, Canada doesn't have an economy. Period.
Without Canada, there would be no US economy either. It works both ways. Without our oil you guys are screwed. The same goes for our natural resources.
 

little elvis

Senior member
Sep 8, 2005
227
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
[The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans

1) wrong
2) wrong

Where'd your banks get their money to lend again, BTW?...

edit: granted, you guys didn't have the cash-out refi frenzy we had here.

Only about 3% of the mortgages in Canada were subprime, compared to 20% plus in the US. ARMs were never introduced in Canada either.

Article
Canadian banks avoided the adoption of the high risk lending practices being conducted abroad. In 2006, subprime mortgages accounted for close to 25% of all new mortgage originations in the U.S., while in Canada the ratio was 5% and subprime mortgages only represented 3% of all outstanding Canadian mortgages. Adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) became popular in the United States, and the interest rate adjustment on these products is a leading reason for the dramatic increase in mortgage delinquencies in that country. In Canada, ARMs were never introduced. Canada did allow greater leverage in the mortgage market through no money down and extended amortization mortgages, but the risk profile on these products was much less than on new U.S. products.


 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,861
6,396
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
[The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans

1) wrong
2) wrong

Where'd your banks get their money to lend again, BTW?...

edit: granted, you guys didn't have the cash-out refi frenzy we had here.

Central Bank/Profits/Deposits

Not sure why you say my points are "wrong", those are the 2 things that sets the US Bubble apart.

So what sets the British housing bubble apart? (and it's as bad or worse than what's going on in California or Florida).

And sorry, but there was speculation, and a govt loan to subprime borrowers is still a subprime loan. Technically speaking, there still is subprime lending in the US still, they're just FHA only now.

Britain is not Canada.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
[The reasons have already been pointed out, but there are basically 2:

1) No speculation/flipping
2) No Sub-Prime Loans

1) wrong
2) wrong

Where'd your banks get their money to lend again, BTW?...

edit: granted, you guys didn't have the cash-out refi frenzy we had here.

What? You don't knwo what you're talking about, Canada had a small fraction of subprime loans compared to the US. Stop posting.