Why call this guy a sniper????????

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Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,775
3
81
Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Originally posted by: Triumph
Originally posted by: Garet Jax

The scary and sad part about all of this is that there are so many Americans who can attest to these gun details :(

Even more sad and more scary is your lack of knowledge on the topic of guns. I'd rather listen to experts on AT who actually know something about guns, than simply listening to the drivel that the media gives us, as apparently you are happy to do.

You're being too presumptuous. You don't know anything about me.
You're jumping to conclusions about me based on little or no information.
It's ironic that you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of.....

elaborate...


Tell us about yourself...
Make sure we don't jump to conclusions...


A rebutle is pointless if we don't know what you are talking about...


Then again, if you are just pointing out how many people know stuff about guns and how easy the infor is to find SAY SO...


seriosuly, I am starting to get pissed at people saying things along the lines of "you don't know me" without backing it up.

No offense, but a lack of details is NOT grounds for winning an argument...or at least with ME it isn't


By the way, the sniper is NOT a sniper:|


He is just and asshole...


Anyone have a poolstick we can jam up there to teach him a lesson...:l

...once we catch him anyway...
rolleye.gif
 

Garet Jax

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2000
6,369
0
71
Originally posted by: Zakath15
So what exactly is scary and sad about people being knowledgable about firearms?

It is sad and scary because most people are gaining their knowledge through exposure to them. Guns are too widely available in this society. Bullets and Guns are easier to come by than diesel gas!

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that this Maryland/Virginia/DC murderer is killing people because he has access to guns. People who want to get guns to kill people will do so no matter how hard it is for them to get them.

It is the people who wouldn't normally have shot/killed someone, but do so because they are emotionally charged and they have immediate access to guns.

It is the children who accidently shoot themselves/family members/friends because they find a loaded gun that isn't stored securely.

This is why I am sad and scared about people being knowledgeable about guns.
 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
5,466
0
76
If this was taking place in your community you would be following it as closely as we are here because it is a major news story.
Check my profile.

I'm not saying that this is not a big deal, because I am following it very closely. I'm saying that the national news media turns things like this into entertainment. This is hardly new.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: sward666
If this was taking place in your community you would be following it as closely as we are here because it is a major news story.
Check my profile.

I'm not saying that this is not a big deal, because I am following it very closely. I'm saying that the national news media turns things like this into entertainment. This is hardly new.

Actually I read this statement by Descartes before I got to your post and was mainly reacting to it. Sorry I should have actually quoted it instead of yours since you didn't really imply there would be no story absent the media like the one below did.
Because to the media, it's sexy. Would everyone be as interested in this if it were simply someone randomly killing people at close range? Would people be so intrigued by it if they didn't have "The SNIPER strikes again!" on the headlines?

It's all about the marketing of tragedy.

I do agree that the media always uses these things as a marketing tool and it is disgusting. The local stations here are already running promos bragging about their coverage of this event. I am only saying that this does deserve the media scrutiny it is receiving irregardless of their marketing apparatus.
 

Garet Jax

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2000
6,369
0
71
Originally posted by: Goosemaster


elaborate...


Tell us about yourself...
Make sure we don't jump to conclusions...


A rebutle is pointless if we don't know what you are talking about...


Then again, if you are just pointing out how many people know stuff about guns and how easy the infor is to find SAY SO...


seriosuly, I am starting to get pissed at people saying things along the lines of "you don't know me" without backing it up.

No offense, but a lack of details is NOT grounds for winning an argument...or at least with ME it isn't.

I am not trying to win any argument. I am simply stating my opinion. I know my opinion is different than many people's on this issue.

I understand your point about people saying "you don't know me". I said this because triumph took my opinion personally and made some personal comments as retaliation. I simply pointed out that he/she was not in a position to do so.
 

sean2002

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,538
0
0
Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Originally posted by: Zakath15
So what exactly is scary and sad about people being knowledgable about firearms?

It is sad and scary because most people are gaining their knowledge through exposure to them. Guns are too widely available in this society. Bullets and Guns are easier to come by than diesel gas!

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that this Maryland/Virginia/DC murderer is killing people because he has access to guns. People who want to get guns to kill people will do so no matter how hard it is for them to get them.

It is the people who wouldn't normally have shot/killed someone, but do so because they are emotionally charged and they have immediate access to guns.

It is the children who accidently shoot themselves/family members/friends because they find a loaded gun that isn't stored securely.

This is why I am sad and scared about people being knowledgeable about guns.

Ok, then what do you suggest? Do we disarm every citizen in the counrty?

How long then until we become a state run by an oppressive military dicator? ie, Sadam, Castro, Musharif (SP)

 

LAUST

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
8,957
1
81
It's not all about the distance, it's over a distance (can be 50 yards, can be 1000 yeards) without being DETECTED

Now settle down, count this one as an "oops" and have a good week :)
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: sean2002
Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Originally posted by: Zakath15
So what exactly is scary and sad about people being knowledgable about firearms?

It is sad and scary because most people are gaining their knowledge through exposure to them. Guns are too widely available in this society. Bullets and Guns are easier to come by than diesel gas!

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that this Maryland/Virginia/DC murderer is killing people because he has access to guns. People who want to get guns to kill people will do so no matter how hard it is for them to get them.

It is the people who wouldn't normally have shot/killed someone, but do so because they are emotionally charged and they have immediate access to guns.

It is the children who accidently shoot themselves/family members/friends because they find a loaded gun that isn't stored securely.

This is why I am sad and scared about people being knowledgeable about guns.

Ok, then what do you suggest? Do we disarm every citizen in the counrty?

How long then until we become a state run by an oppressive military dicator? ie, Sadam, Castro, Musharif (SP)


Musharraf is not even oppressive when compared to Saddam or Castro. That is like comparing apples to oranges.
 

sean2002

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,538
0
0
Originally posted by: Millenium
Originally posted by: sean2002
Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Originally posted by: Zakath15
So what exactly is scary and sad about people being knowledgable about firearms?

It is sad and scary because most people are gaining their knowledge through exposure to them. Guns are too widely available in this society. Bullets and Guns are easier to come by than diesel gas!

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that this Maryland/Virginia/DC murderer is killing people because he has access to guns. People who want to get guns to kill people will do so no matter how hard it is for them to get them.

It is the people who wouldn't normally have shot/killed someone, but do so because they are emotionally charged and they have immediate access to guns.

It is the children who accidently shoot themselves/family members/friends because they find a loaded gun that isn't stored securely.

This is why I am sad and scared about people being knowledgeable about guns.

Ok, then what do you suggest? Do we disarm every citizen in the counrty?

How long then until we become a state run by an oppressive military dicator? ie, Sadam, Castro, Musharif (SP)


Musharraf is not even oppressive when compared to Saddam or Castro. That is like comparing apples to oranges.


He may not be oppressive but he's still a military dicator.
 

Garet Jax

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2000
6,369
0
71
Originally posted by: sean2002
Ok, then what do you suggest? Do we disarm every citizen in the counrty?

How long then until we become a state run by an oppressive military dicator? ie, Sadam, Castro, Musharif (SP)

This is the million dollar question. To start I do not agree that disarming every citizen leads to an oppressive military dictator. There are many countries that have put restrictions on gun ownership and yet are not run as a dictatorship (Canada and most of Europe). There are some countries that have few gun ownership restrictions and are still run as a dictatorship.

There are many reasons why Countries are run by a dictator (military or otherwise) and I believe relating it directly to gun ownership restrictions is an over-simplification.

I think the first thing to do is to remove the influence that the NRA has in this country. I liken them to tobacco companies. They are using their money and their size to influence politicians into doing things that may not be what the people want (or what is even best for the people). I say put the power into the voice of the people and get it out of the businesses and the politicians that have lost sight of why they are running.

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: sean2002
Originally posted by: Millenium
Originally posted by: sean2002
Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Originally posted by: Zakath15
So what exactly is scary and sad about people being knowledgable about firearms?

It is sad and scary because most people are gaining their knowledge through exposure to them. Guns are too widely available in this society. Bullets and Guns are easier to come by than diesel gas!

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that this Maryland/Virginia/DC murderer is killing people because he has access to guns. People who want to get guns to kill people will do so no matter how hard it is for them to get them.

It is the people who wouldn't normally have shot/killed someone, but do so because they are emotionally charged and they have immediate access to guns.

It is the children who accidently shoot themselves/family members/friends because they find a loaded gun that isn't stored securely.

This is why I am sad and scared about people being knowledgeable about guns.

Ok, then what do you suggest? Do we disarm every citizen in the counrty?

How long then until we become a state run by an oppressive military dicator? ie, Sadam, Castro, Musharif (SP)


Musharraf is not even oppressive when compared to Saddam or Castro. That is like comparing apples to oranges.


He may not be oppressive but he's still a military dicator.

You need to learn the difference between Mushareff's dictatorship and that of Saddam or Castro.



"1999: Seized power in October 1999 in a bloodless coup. Took the role of 'Chief Executive' of Pakistan on 12th Oct. Continues to hold office of Chief of Army Staff and Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee.

June 20, 2001: Appoints himself President of Pakistan, but says he remains committed to returning democracy to the nation.

Political ambitions

Musharraf has promised to restore civilian rule when a mandate given to him by the Supreme Court expires in October 2002.

Analysts see the general as a political moderate who supports economic reforms. His sudden rise to power at the head of Tuesday's coup came about after Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif tried to fire him over disagreements about Sharif's policies.

Of particular concern was Sharif's decision to end this summer's Islamic incursion into India, widely believed to have been orchestrated by Musharraf. He has kept a distance from the Islamic rebels, however, except to encourage their fight in Kashmir."

The last part calls for some concern, but overall anyone who is advocating democracy and wants civilian control is not in the same league as Saddam or Castro. Also, he was a major supporter of our war on terrorism.




 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Originally posted by: Zakath15
So what exactly is scary and sad about people being knowledgable about firearms?

It is sad and scary because most people are gaining their knowledge through exposure to them. Guns are too widely available in this society. Bullets and Guns are easier to come by than diesel gas!

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that this Maryland/Virginia/DC murderer is killing people because he has access to guns. People who want to get guns to kill people will do so no matter how hard it is for them to get them.

It is the people who wouldn't normally have shot/killed someone, but do so because they are emotionally charged and they have immediate access to guns.

It is the children who accidently shoot themselves/family members/friends because they find a loaded gun that isn't stored securely.

This is why I am sad and scared about people being knowledgeable about guns.

a) Most rational gun owners support a mandatory waiting period and background check.

b) Any responsible gun owner who has children makes sure of two things - 1) their firearms are locked in a wall-mounted safe, with either a combination lock or a key they keep well-hidden, and 2) their children are aware of firearms, at least some basic usage (after a certain age), and some well-laid-out ground rules that are never challenged.

Guns aren't toys. No one ever said they were. Any halfway-intelligent firearm owner makes sure their kids know it.
 

kh3443

Senior member
May 31, 2002
226
0
0
A murderer that snipes. I say when he gets caught, he deserves the death sentence
 

Adrian Tung

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,370
1
0
"The sniper's role is to deliver highly accurate, discriminatory fire against selected targets, which cannot be engaged successfully by regular riflemen owing to problems of range, size, location, mobile nature or visibility."

Got this from my U.S. Marine Corps Sniper model, just wanted to share....


:)atwl
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,974
140
106
Expect the anti gun media sensationalists to put lawful fire arms owners in the worst possible light.
 

WinkOsmosis

Banned
Sep 18, 2002
13,990
1
0
Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 2snipe
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sniped; snip·ing
Date: 1832
1 : to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
2 : to aim a carping or snide attack
- snip·er noun

I wish I knew where the idea comes from that a sniper has to shoot from a certain distance or with a certain gun to be a sniper... maybe the bandwagon?
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
I think people should spend less time worrying about what he is called and more time praying or whatever it is they do that this man gets caught.
 

BatmanNate

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
12,444
2
81
This is where your logic is flawed. If more people understood more about guns and how to safely and effectively store and use them, then we would not have these problems with kids finding them and shooting themselves, or other people. It is the lack of knowledge on the subject that is the root of the problem, not the opposite.

It is my belief that the right to bear firearms is gaurenteed to us by the 2nd ammendment to the constitution in order to secure a populace that may remain free from governmental oppression, including the possiblity of that from our own. (in other words, we learned from the mistakes of the society the sparked us) Critical to maintaining this right to the end of having a readily available millitia as the constitution states, knowledge and experience with firearms are direly important to those of us who choose to own them.

 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
Originally posted by: Aceman
Originally posted by: sean2002
I can hit a human size target @ 400 yards with my colt h-bar ar-15, but I'm by no means a sniper quality shooter. Stop callng him a sniper and just call him what he really is, and that is a killer, plain and simple. A good sniper will put a roung in you eye socket @ 500+ yards

I'd say from my 16 years in the Army, that if he's getting head shots and he's shooting from 300-400yrds away, on a moving target, he's sniper trained. 400 yards away and 1 shot/1 hit is not as easy as you claim it to be. And, he's using a 5.56mm bullet. They aren't accurate at over 500-600 yards. Now if it's 200 yards or less, that's a different story

EXACTLY! I keep hearing people say "Wow, he must suck. He let 2 of them live." I'm like, WTF! He has hit AND KILLED 9 out of 11 MOVING targets from somewhere between 200-400 yards or more. He is DEFINATELY a trained sniper or at least a large gun enthusiast. They say he is using a .223, and some of the pics show an M16 or AR-15. I highly doubt he is using one of these. In my opinion, he is prolly using a Remington 700 or some other tactical rifle.

My AR-15 is pretty accurate up to about 150-200 yards, having about a 6 inch grouping.

Here is a pic of it: Right Nyaw

 

dquan97

Lifer
Jul 9, 2002
12,010
3
0
Interesting article

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military Wednesday joined the search for the Washington-area sniper who has killed nine people and wounded two others since October 2.

The Pentagon said it would allow special Army aircraft to be used in the hunt for the sniper around the clock.

CNN's Leon Harris spoke Wednesday with retired U.S. Army Command Sgt. Maj. Eric Haney, a 20-year military veteran who has visited nine sniper crime scenes, for his insight into the attacks. Haney is a founding member of the elite Delta Force Special Operations unit and author of the book "Inside Delta Force: The Story of America's Elite Counterterrorist Unit."

HARRIS: What struck you most about the crime scenes?

HANEY: The meticulous care with which the shooters are selecting the sites from which to shoot -- that's more important than anything else to them -- and the ability to immediately leave the area unobtrusively once they've taken the shot.

HARRIS: But what have you learned then about these getaways? Because we were talking about this [Tuesday] quite a bit, and it seems to be mystifying most of the experts we've talked to so far. You think you know how they're getting away?

HANEY: Well certainly, they're just driving away, but there's a bit of deception involved here. In most all of the sites that I've looked at, the shooting takes place near a major intersection just away from an interstate, and I think that's the deception. The original police idea is they're jumping on the interstate and making their getaway.

I don't believe so. I think they're using smaller roads and feeder roads. Because one thing that greatly struck me is the ability of this person, these people, to understand the little alleys and the back ways around the strip malls because this is where the shootings are taking place.

In my own mind, I think the person is probably a delivery driver. They've had a lot of experience around the area. And the fact that the Michaels store played a part, was nearby in at least four of them that I looked at, tells me the person may have been a delivery driver. He was familiar with Michaels. He knows these small strip mall areas; he knows the little back roads and exactly where to go from there.

HARRIS: Speaking of where to go, I read somewhere that you said that you believe these guys are taking right-hand turns wherever they go?

HANEY: I'm positive of it. The way they set up for the shot, it's positioned so that they -- once the shot is taken -- the driver then puts the vehicle in gear, he pulls forward, and within 20 feet he's making a right-hand turn onto one little feeder lane. When they come out to the first road, they make a right-hand turn so they never have to stop for traffic. They never have to cross a lane.

HARRIS: Which would explain the situation that happened with the last shooting Monday night in Falls Church, Virginia, where at that Seven Corners area -- which is such a very congested area with all the stop lights that were there -- the stop lights did not pose a problem.

HANEY: And also, people focus on the victim when they hit the ground. You're not looking outward. In most of these cases, the shots have been fired from inside a vehicle, which muffles the sound. So outside, anyone -- the only thing they'll hear is just sort of a pronounced thump, nothing that they associate with a rifle shot.

HARRIS: Well considering that you're talking about that level of planning, that intricate level of consideration of every single level here, you don't think this was someone with special training, with military training?

HANEY: There's nothing in the military that teaches that at the very levels that we work at. This is cleverness. Now there's always a great deal of cleverness associated with evil.

What they're doing most often -- not in every case there -- some of them have a little bit of difference, but there's a great commonality to them. In most of the cases of the strip mall shootings, they pull to the end of a lane. Now think of when you pull into a strip mall or any parking area at your grocery store, you have the lanes that you drive down with the marked parking spaces left and right.

They pull to the far end of the parking lot, where people tend not to want to park. Everyone wants to park upfront. They position their vehicle so that the rear of the vehicle faces down a lane. People walk down those same lanes that you drive. Think of it, when you walk to the store. So as they either get out of their car and walk to the store or they're walking back to their car, all the shooter has to do is take the shot at a person walking straight toward him or straight away.

And for all appearance representation for the shot, it's a person standing still. And all events had a little more -- that first shot at the Michaels store, where there's a bullet hole in the window about 6 feet 4 inches above the ground.

And everyone said he shot a window, why? He didn't shoot a window; he shot at a person and missed. There was one person walking around in that area who heard the sharp sonic crack of a bullet go by but didn't recognize what it was, and they lived through it.

HARRIS: What can it do to a human body? You say that even if that was to hit a window, it would make a small hole?

HANEY: It makes a tiny hole. When this round goes through glass or something hard that thin, it can't dump all of its energy, which it does in a human body.

HARRIS: Is the amount of gunpowder in a .223-caliber round more than the amount of gunpowder in a .22-caliber round, which is about the same size?

HANEY: Well, yes, it has a lot more power. It leaves the muzzle at a much, much faster velocity. It leaves the muzzle at better than 3,200 feet per second. So it has a lot of energy.

But in that first shot at Michaels, what I surmised was that was at one of the longest ranges he attempted a shot, which was 100 meters. Since [then], he has never attempted a shot at 100 meters at a moving person.

In the other cases, the gentleman shot in Manassas, [Virginia] -- at the gas station -- was shot from across the road at 100 meters. He was standing still. Anyone else who has been moving has been shot at 50 meters.

HARRIS: What about the 13-year-old boy shot at a school in Bowie, Maryland?

HANEY: The little boy was walking straight toward the shooter, and the range was 75 meters, and the shooter was lying on the ground. If he intended to kill the little boy, he shot low. My view is that he intended to severely wound the child, which is what he did. There's nothing more damaging than a gut shot, an abdomen shot.

The only reason the little boy lived was his aunt was right there. She knew what had happened, and he was so close to a hospital. Usually that kind of wound -- particularly if it cuts the stomach, and the doctors will tell you about that -- is so devastating that had it lasted another 20 minutes, he would not have survived.

HARRIS: Have you seen or heard anything that would dissuade you from believing that there were two people involved here?

HANEY: No, I'm convinced there are two. They're operating in tandem. One shoots while the other either drives the vehicle and is sitting in the driver's seat watching. He's also pulling security. He tells the shooter, "OK, no one's nearby us right now. When you have a person in your sights, take the shot." Then when the shot is fired, the driver slips it into gear, and they unobtrusively pull way. Inside of 20 seconds, they're a couple of blocks away.
 

DorkBoy

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2000
3,591
0
0
remember its the "media" that makes up these names.

Several hundreds yards doesn't mean a "sniper",, hell I guess I was too at 13 ??
 

WinkOsmosis

Banned
Sep 18, 2002
13,990
1
0
Originally posted by: DorkBoy
remember its the "media" that makes up these names.

Several hundreds yards doesn't mean a "sniper",, hell I guess I was too at 13 ??
Were you shooting at exposed individuals from an concealed point of vantage?

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 2snipe
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sniped; snip·ing
Date: 1832
1 : to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,447
216
106
Edro get you facts straight every report has it less than 150 yards STATIONARY targets.
People live because bullets are not the all powerfull killers they are made out to be. Heard of casualties? People that live after being shot?
Generally far outweight the dead.
I hunt, I've have yet to hit a stationary target, damn deer, typically 100-200 yards running, Not too tough really.
You can call him a sniper by his style yes, but not by skill or choice of equipment.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
Originally posted by: desy
Edro get you facts straight every report has it less than 150 yards STATIONARY targets.
q]

Ummm.....stationary would be a paper target. A person standing, is not STATIONARY! Even when people stand, they are moving and swaying. Even at 150 yards, I guarentee YOU cannot hit a person and KILL 9 out of 11 of them. He obviously knows what he is doing. You obviously do not.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Originally posted by: Descartes
Because to the media, it's sexy. Would everyone be as interested in this if it were simply someone randomly killing people at close range? Would people be so intrigued by it if they didn't have "The SNIPER strikes again!" on the headlines?

It's all about the marketing of tragedy.

Bingo. MSNBC and Fox News get better ratings calling this guy a "sniper" than they would get calling this guy "some redneck freak with a rifle taking pot shots at innocent people".

Remember, increased ratings for major news events means more ad revenue for these stations. If you don't think that they're playing up this story for more profits, you are sadly mistaken.