Why ATI Wins... [IMO]

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

To be honest I cannot see how Nvidia is making a lot of money when some people are getting GTX260's for $200-225 or so.

I'd be willing to bet Nvidia makes a profit on those parts. The "cost" to Nvidia is probably very low. Maybe 30-40 bucks a chip, tops. Lower end models cost even less. We will find the true extent of any issues with their 3rd quarter financials.
 

ajaidevsingh

Senior member
Mar 7, 2008
563
0
0
Originally posted by: jaredpace
Originally posted by: Piuc2020
I'm still torn between a 4870 and GTX 260

If you're spending ~$280 and have an intel x-fire board, I'd grab two 4850's.

I so agree with that my CF setup seems much better than a GTX 280 i tried and games like GRID seems to be out of the world!!!
 

Skunkwourk

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
4,662
1
81
Originally posted by: child of wonder
And in 12 months people will be speculating AMD closing their doors and how Nvidia is completely dominating them. Then, 12 months later, the opposite will be true. Repeat ad nauseum.

 

God Mode

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2005
2,903
0
71
To be honest I cannot see how Nvidia is making a lot of money when some people are getting GTX260's for $200-225 or so.

Most hardware manufacturers make money on the mid and low end products. Flagship items are basically a companys statement and advertising tool.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
To start off, in my opinion AMD should just stick with server processors and graphics cards.

bad idea... These are both pretty much opposite ends of the high performance market, and they are not the areas where hi volume sales are made. The idea for any company such as AMD is to sell their name based on their high end products, and have that trickle down to more average users.

The big money is in OEM contracts. Dell, Gateway, HP, etc... is were the money is. What OEMs are looking for is not a single good (or even great) component, but a platform. OEMs love stuff like Intel's Centrino.

They also need to work on better marketing for their cards.

This has always plagued both AMD and ATI. Bringing them together hasn't cured that. Remember, you're talking about the company that brought us the 'Sempron'. Which, IMO, was probably one of the best budget chips ever, but was cursed with an almost unmarketable name.

That said, ATI has definitely shown a more effective use of launch strategy with the 4800 series. The early launch of the 4850 was a good move, and showed they were ready to play rough this round. They have also worked the paper launch of the 4870X2 very much to their advantage. They have managed to make themselves the current darling of the review world. The only thing that could possibly break the 4870X2 would be poor driver support, but their PR/marketing dept has done a solid job of building buzz around the X2.

I guess we'll find out how long this shift of power can last.

Well, I certainly wouldn't count NV out too soon. ATI better be prepared for NV's next architecture. If history has taught us anything, it's that neither ATI or NV like losing. There doesn't seem to be anything that motivates either company like a year of egg on their face.
 

FalseChristian

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2002
3,322
0
71
I've seen the GeForce GTX 280 in action an d it is an amazing card. The Radeon HD 4870 is also a spectacular GPU and ylu can't lose with either. I've had both ATI and nVidia products in the past and have never been disappointed.:) Competition is good for all of us!
 

Ares202

Senior member
Jun 3, 2007
331
0
71
Originally posted by: Shortass
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

People forget the FX series was only initally a disaster, once they released the FX 5700/ FX 5900 they were close to on a par with ATI's offerings (9600, 9800) and the 6 months after that the fx5950 was faster than any of ATI's offerings at the time

also read the amount of reviews the GTX series has compared the the ATI 48xx series on newegg, thats a general indicator whos shipping the greater volume right now ATI is way in the lead
 

AmberClad

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
4,914
0
0
Originally posted by: Ares202
also read the amount of reviews the GTX series has compared the the ATI 48xx series on newegg, thats a general indicator whos shipping the greater volume right now ATI is way in the lead
Not necessarily.

How many reviews does the Phenom 9850 BE have on NewEgg? 423.

How many reviews are there for Yorkfields (non-Extreme Edition), combined?
Q9550 - 11
Q9450 - 192
Q9300 - 130
That's 333 total.

Now head on over to the CPU subforum and see how many people you can get to admit that they own a 9850 BE.
 

AmberClad

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
4,914
0
0
*shrug* I recall a couple of threads a while back where people asked for thoughts from people using 9850 BEs. Maybe a handful of people responded that they owned one. For all the reviews at NewEgg, people are awfully shy about saying that they have them. Either that, or going off the number of NewEgg reviews isn't a good indicator of market share.
 

Ares202

Senior member
Jun 3, 2007
331
0
71
Originally posted by: AmberClad
Originally posted by: Ares202
also read the amount of reviews the GTX series has compared the the ATI 48xx series on newegg, thats a general indicator whos shipping the greater volume right now ATI is way in the lead
Not necessarily.

How many reviews does the Phenom 9850 BE have on NewEgg? 423.

How many reviews are there for Yorkfields (non-Extreme Edition), combined?
Q9550 - 11
Q9450 - 192
Q9300 - 130
That's 333 total.

Now head on over to the CPU subforum and see how many people you can get to admit that they own a 9850 BE.

i can agree with you on that one but in a very general sense its an ok reference for example the Q6600 has 2164 reviews, the e6600 had over 2000 when it was taken off the site they are the two most popular CPU's on this forum by far

 

AmberClad

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
4,914
0
0
Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with the overall conclusions you could draw from that particularly example (the Q6600 and E6600 being pretty popular). In some cases, I think you'll actually get an underestimate of units sold by basing your conclusions on # of NewEgg reviews. Especially with the more mundane items that fewer people get excited about. Like AS5 for example -- around 2000 reviews for the 3.5g version. That stuff's been around for years, and I tend to think that they're sold more tubes of that stuff than Q6600s.
 

AmberClad

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
4,914
0
0
We weren't really discussing price, we were discussing market share. And why there are seemingly fewer 9850BE owners here than Yorkfield owners, when the number of NewEgg reviews would indicate otherwise. Anyways, this is all starting to go off on a tangent -- that example was originally designed to illlustrate why it's not good to use NewEgg reviews to get a sense of market share.
 

dadach

Senior member
Nov 27, 2005
204
0
76
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

To be honest I cannot see how Nvidia is making a lot of money when some people are getting GTX260's for $200-225 or so.

I'd be willing to bet Nvidia makes a profit on those parts. The "cost" to Nvidia is probably very low. Maybe 30-40 bucks a chip, tops. Lower end models cost even less. We will find the true extent of any issues with their 3rd quarter financials.

someone said something about price gauging...im sorry, but what nvidia tried to do was pathetic...it actually tried to screw their most loyal customers, with starting prices of new gtx series...after they saw that ati has much better value, they rediculously dropped the price...ofc i could be wrong, and nvidia is losing money on every sale ;)

 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Not exactly dadach. Nvidia most likely priced their cards what they thought the market would support. Look at the prices the 8800GTX and the 8800GTS640 started out with. 649/449. How long did the 2900XT remain over 400? Because it was competitive with the 8800GTS which was also over 400 for a long time. ATI changed the rules of marketing severely undercutting what they could have gotten for their 4xxx cards due to the good performance they were getting. They wanted their consumers back and that is reflected in the prices ATI started out with. Because of their good performance and ridiculously low prices, Nvidia of course had to respond. Which they did.
 

TaylorTech

Member
Jul 24, 2008
78
0
0
Sorry, didn't have a chance to check this since yesterday, this thread blew up!

I agree keys. The 4xxx series could be much higher in price. However they figured out by keeping the prices just a bit lower they could gain so many more consumers. I mean who wouldn't want to pay $270 for a card that could out perform a $400 one?
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Not exactly dadach. Nvidia most likely priced their cards what they thought the market would support. Look at the prices the 8800GTX and the 8800GTS640 started out with. 649/449. How long did the 2900XT remain over 400? Because it was competitive with the 8800GTS which was also over 400 for a long time. ATI changed the rules of marketing severely undercutting what they could have gotten for their 4xxx cards due to the good performance they were getting. They wanted their consumers back and that is reflected in the prices ATI started out with. Because of their good performance and ridiculously low prices, Nvidia of course had to respond. Which they did.

Yes, In other words they were lying about manufacturing costs being $150- $200. Nv is the biggest drama king in this industry...when asked about price being so high- they say some garbage about manufacturing costs and suddenly drop prices by 200 bucks when amd releases a competitive product? When you ask them about DX 10.1 - they say it's not really useful, that's such an immature statement to make. I need DX10.1! every developer needs one, who are they to decide whats best for us?........and there was a talk of Gddr 5 last year and they were ranting about memory prices being too high.

There is no true DX10 game out there except Call of Juarez, rest of them are commercially promoted by NV using selective DX10 features from the API library that only their cards can do the best..

From all of this we can conclude that nv doesn't look at the best interests of it's customers. They like ripping off people's wallets and over hyping the mediocre features of their product line.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: dadach
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

To be honest I cannot see how Nvidia is making a lot of money when some people are getting GTX260's for $200-225 or so.

I'd be willing to bet Nvidia makes a profit on those parts. The "cost" to Nvidia is probably very low. Maybe 30-40 bucks a chip, tops. Lower end models cost even less. We will find the true extent of any issues with their 3rd quarter financials.

someone said something about price gauging...im sorry, but what nvidia tried to do was pathetic...it actually tried to screw their most loyal customers, with starting prices of new gtx series...after they saw that ati has much better value, they rediculously dropped the price...ofc i could be wrong, and nvidia is losing money on every sale ;)

Are you kidding me? Did you just arrive on the graphics card scene or something? Their initial pricing for their top end cards is what it has been for about the last 4 years. You will notice once demand slumped thanks to ATI they lowered the price. Anybody purchasing those cards knew they were bleeding edge and paid a premium for it.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Not exactly dadach. Nvidia most likely priced their cards what they thought the market would support. Look at the prices the 8800GTX and the 8800GTS640 started out with. 649/449. How long did the 2900XT remain over 400? Because it was competitive with the 8800GTS which was also over 400 for a long time. ATI changed the rules of marketing severely undercutting what they could have gotten for their 4xxx cards due to the good performance they were getting. They wanted their consumers back and that is reflected in the prices ATI started out with. Because of their good performance and ridiculously low prices, Nvidia of course had to respond. Which they did.

Yes, In other words they were lying about manufacturing costs being $150- $200. Nv is the biggest drama king in this industry...when asked about price being so high- they say some garbage about manufacturing costs and suddenly drop prices by 200 bucks when amd releases a competitive product? When you ask them about DX 10.1 - they say it's not really useful, that's such an immature statement to make. I need DX10.1! every developer needs one, who are they to decide whats best for us?........and there was a talk of Gddr 5 last year and they were ranting about memory prices being too high.

There is no true DX10 game out there except Call of Juarez, rest of them are commercially promoted by NV using selective DX10 features from the API library that only their cards can do the best..

From all of this we can conclude that nv doesn't look at the best interests of it's customers. They like ripping off people's wallets and over hyping the mediocre features of their product line.

Then dont buy their product.
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Not exactly dadach. Nvidia most likely priced their cards what they thought the market would support. Look at the prices the 8800GTX and the 8800GTS640 started out with. 649/449. How long did the 2900XT remain over 400? Because it was competitive with the 8800GTS which was also over 400 for a long time. ATI changed the rules of marketing severely undercutting what they could have gotten for their 4xxx cards due to the good performance they were getting. They wanted their consumers back and that is reflected in the prices ATI started out with. Because of their good performance and ridiculously low prices, Nvidia of course had to respond. Which they did.

Yes, In other words they were lying about manufacturing costs being $150- $200. Nv is the biggest drama king in this industry...when asked about price being so high- they say some garbage about manufacturing costs and suddenly drop prices by 200 bucks when amd releases a competitive product? When you ask them about DX 10.1 - they say it's not really useful, that's such an immature statement to make. I need DX10.1! every developer needs one, who are they to decide whats best for us?........and there was a talk of Gddr 5 last year and they were ranting about memory prices being too high.

There is no true DX10 game out there except Call of Juarez, rest of them are commercially promoted by NV using selective DX10 features from the API library that only their cards can do the best..

From all of this we can conclude that nv doesn't look at the best interests of it's customers. They like ripping off people's wallets and over hyping the mediocre features of their product line.

Then dont buy their product.

Well, I used to buy- my last setup was 8800 GTX in SLI. I think everyone has to go through this phase to realize what's really going on.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Not exactly dadach. Nvidia most likely priced their cards what they thought the market would support. Look at the prices the 8800GTX and the 8800GTS640 started out with. 649/449. How long did the 2900XT remain over 400? Because it was competitive with the 8800GTS which was also over 400 for a long time. ATI changed the rules of marketing severely undercutting what they could have gotten for their 4xxx cards due to the good performance they were getting. They wanted their consumers back and that is reflected in the prices ATI started out with. Because of their good performance and ridiculously low prices, Nvidia of course had to respond. Which they did.

Yes, In other words they were lying about manufacturing costs being $150- $200. Nv is the biggest drama king in this industry...when asked about price being so high- they say some garbage about manufacturing costs and suddenly drop prices by 200 bucks when amd releases a competitive product? When you ask them about DX 10.1 - they say it's not really useful, that's such an immature statement to make. I need DX10.1! every developer needs one, who are they to decide whats best for us?........and there was a talk of Gddr 5 last year and they were ranting about memory prices being too high.

There is no true DX10 game out there except Call of Juarez, rest of them are commercially promoted by NV using selective DX10 features from the API library that only their cards can do the best..

From all of this we can conclude that nv doesn't look at the best interests of it's customers. They like ripping off people's wallets and over hyping the mediocre features of their product line.

Well, you have your views and you're welcome to them. I recall both ATI and Nvidia debuting their flagship models north of 600 dollars (pre 2900XT, the last time they were truly competitive until today). Was it costing ATI that much money to make their GPU's? They price what the market will support. They price what history shows the market will support. Why do you call it lying, when it's actually called product positioning and pricing? And what do you mean by manufacturing costs? The whole card, or just the GPU? Do you know? Ask ATI about Physx and see how important they think it is. Ask them about CUDA.
It's kind of hard to make these kinds of arguments when both companies behave very much alike when it comes to touting their respective features. Try to keep a level head about it and see things as they really are. Competitive. That's what we are seeing here.
And if you say you "need DX 10.1" I'll believe you. If you say "I don't need Physx!" I'll believe you again. As long as you believe it, that's good enough for me.
 

TaylorTech

Member
Jul 24, 2008
78
0
0
Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp
Originally posted by: TaylorTech

Thoughts?

Simple the graphics game is like a drive to work then a drive home, back and forth back and forth, nothing new here lets move along.

Thank you for making me spend the 3 seconds to read that.

 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Not exactly dadach. Nvidia most likely priced their cards what they thought the market would support. Look at the prices the 8800GTX and the 8800GTS640 started out with. 649/449. How long did the 2900XT remain over 400? Because it was competitive with the 8800GTS which was also over 400 for a long time. ATI changed the rules of marketing severely undercutting what they could have gotten for their 4xxx cards due to the good performance they were getting. They wanted their consumers back and that is reflected in the prices ATI started out with. Because of their good performance and ridiculously low prices, Nvidia of course had to respond. Which they did.

Yes, In other words they were lying about manufacturing costs being $150- $200. Nv is the biggest drama king in this industry...when asked about price being so high- they say some garbage about manufacturing costs and suddenly drop prices by 200 bucks when amd releases a competitive product? When you ask them about DX 10.1 - they say it's not really useful, that's such an immature statement to make. I need DX10.1! every developer needs one, who are they to decide whats best for us?........and there was a talk of Gddr 5 last year and they were ranting about memory prices being too high.

There is no true DX10 game out there except Call of Juarez, rest of them are commercially promoted by NV using selective DX10 features from the API library that only their cards can do the best..

From all of this we can conclude that nv doesn't look at the best interests of it's customers. They like ripping off people's wallets and over hyping the mediocre features of their product line.

Then dont buy their product.

Well, I used to buy- my last setup was 8800 GTX in SLI. I think everyone has to go through this phase to realize what's really going on.

That is a pretty extreme view.

i am no Nvidia fan, yet i do not believe they are deliberately out to "cheat" anyone. They have become a "big corporation" with a big corporation mentality = the Bottom Line is King.

AMD has also done the SAME THING when they were on top with their Athlon - and they paid for it with lost and bitter fans

i predicted that Nvidia was "out of touch" with its Main Fan Base - US - with GX2's *ridiculous pricing* - completely out of touch with the current recession; and they dropped prices over $100 within a month. They simply had no follow-up to their long-lasting GTX-8800; which was only surpassed over 1-1/2 years later by Tesla.

Now Tesla Architecture IS amazing - but not so much now for gaming. .. Nvidia is aiming for future applications with CUDA and trying to take on intel - which is a bit much also imo. So they are stretched "thin" and it shows. They were also caught by their GPUs failing and look to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars in losses and are looking to their insurance to bail them out [no doubt they will also ask TSMC for damages later also]

Yes, there is NO LIE about the GT GPU being $110-125. Clearly Nvidia is taking serious "losses" with Tesla to stay competitive price-wise ... but that was due to AMD stealing a page from Nvidia's playbook; not Nvidia's lack of foresight - they were blindsided [as we were mostly fooled] by HD4x50's outstanding and pragmatic performance - it is cheap to produce and is sufficient for gaming, whereas Nvidia's solution is "overkill" -imo]

Nvidia will get back on track with the shrink to 55 nm .. my prediction
- they MUST get on track, or their partners will finally rebel.. ANd that means they must try and gain back US - their fan base again. They know what they must do, i think.


 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
0
0
This thread is flamebait and by reading through the posts it's working.

I swear it's a viral campaign as a lot of this has been showing up in other forums (people who joined around the time of the 4xxx launch spreading FUD).