Why arent CPU scaling with die shrinks?

[poofyhairguy]

If you think Intel isn't investing in future chips, then please tell me what it's spending that $12B on.

Dumping it into the mobile market via marketing bucks to make up for them being SOOOO epically late and behind on what will be the future of computing.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Its in the performance segment. We talk about mainstream.

Likely corresponds to mainstream Intel price-wise, e.g. 4770K and friends. So it's mainstream.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Likely corresponds to mainstream Intel price-wise, e.g. 4770K and friends. So it's mainstream.

Does it? What segment is the 4790K etc in?

 

[Fjodor2001]

Does it? What segment is the 4790K etc in?

Mainstream+. Really expensive for the few extra MHz. But not HEDT.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mainstream+. Really expensive for the few extra MHz. But not HEDT.

Its not in the mainstream segment. No wonder you keep getting it wrong. Its in the Premium Performance segment together with 2 HEDT chips.

You have to go down to i5 before you hit the mainstream segment.

 

[BD231]

The 2550K is a 2012 product isnt it. And its not anywhere close to a 1000$ CPU in performance.

http://ark.intel.com/products/65647/Intel-Core-i5-2550K-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz

Early 2012 and performance wise its almost exactly on par clock for clock in anything that doesn't need 8 cores.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Early 2012 and performance wise its almost exactly on par clock for clock in anything that doesn't need 8 cores.

Are you trying to say IPC wise your SB is like HW?

 

[Arachnotronic]

Dumping it into the mobile market via marketing bucks to make up for them being SOOOO epically late and behind on what will be the future of computing.

That's, uh, not how R&D/contra-revenue works.

 

[BD231]

Are you trying to say IPC wise your SB is like HW?

Why else would you have asked?

 

[Fjodor2001]

Its not in the mainstream segment. No wonder you keep getting it wrong. Its in the Premium Performance segment together with 2 HEDT chips.

You have to go down to i5 before you hit the mainstream segment.

Just a matter of naming. The 8 core Zen is likely to be priced around 4690K or so. Hence mainstream.

Main point is that it will be extremely much cheaper than the cheapest 8 core Intel CPU, which is 5960X at $999.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Just milkin the cash cow. $150 dollar cpus bought in 2011 are still neck and neck with a current $1,000 dollar CPU when overclocked for gaming and common tasks.

They're fully aware and don't care.

Logic has left the building. Show me that 150.00 cpu from 2011 that has the performance of 8 core haswell E in uses that can use 8 cores.

And if you cant use 8 cores, then you are either a fool or have money to burn if you buy 8 core haswell E. You do know that hex core haswell E can now be bought for less than 400.00, right?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Just a matter of naming. The 8 core Zen is likely to be priced around 4690K or so. Hence mainstream.

Main point is that it will be extremely much cheaper than the cheapest 8 core Intel CPU, which is 5960X at $999.

It will be priced exactly at how it performs. If it only performs like a 200$ CPU it will be priced at 200$.

if it performs like a 1000$ chip it will be priced at 1000$.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The original point is made by someone with no background in CPU design, who then makes an assumption on how things should be with no real reasoning behind it other than "things should improve linearly." That's just not how things happen in the real world. Rather than getting angry with reality it would be better to look into the limits imposed on engineering by physics.

No fair, you arent allow to use logical reasoning in these threads.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I didnt say it costs $150-$170 back then I said it could be had now for that price and it was released in 2010 and matches or beats todays CPU when overclocked to 4.5Ghz or higher.Dont play dumb by twisting my words.

Wow, news flash. Something used is cheaper than something new. I would never have expected that.

 

[Fjodor2001]

It will be priced exactly at how it performs. If it only performs like a 200$ CPU it will be priced at 200$.

if it performs like a 1000$ chip it will be priced at 1000$.

Not necessarily. If AMD wants to grab top end mainstream market share, they'll likely price it lower.

If they price it at $999 it won't sell, just like Intel's 5960X doesn't sell in any quantities worth mentioning.

I think AMD is having bigger plans than that. They are likely targeting the same crowd as with FX8350 and friends. I.e. mainstream. Then it cannot carry a $999 price tag.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Not necessarily. If AMD wants to grab top end mainstream market share, they'll likely price it lower.

If they price it at $999 it won't sell, just like Intel's 5960X doesn't sell in any quantities worth mentioning.

I think AMD is having bigger plans than that. They are likely targeting the same crowd as with FX8350 and friends. I.e. mainstream. Then it cannot carry a $999 price tag.

So now AMD will be giving away 1000$ performance for 200$? Thats one generous company. Just a shame that doesnt put butter on the bread.

 

[Fjodor2001]

So now AMD will be giving away 1000$ performance for 200$? Thats one generous company. Just a shame that doesnt put butter on the bread.

The reason Intel overcharges for 8 core CPUs is that they are protecting server SKU market shares. If they sold them priced on die area they would cannibalize on server SKUs.

Two options for AMD :

1. Sell 8 core Zen at $999, and sell nearly nothing, making nearly no total profit.
2. Sell 8 core Zen at mainstream prices (FX8350 / 4690K price range). Sell lots of CPUs, make a little less profit on each, but more profit in total.

Go figure what AMD will chose.

 

[BD231]

Logic has left the building. Show me that 150.00 cpu from 2011 that has the performance of 8 core haswell E in uses that can use 8 cores.

And if you cant use 8 cores, then you are either a fool or have money to burn if you buy 8 core haswell E. You do know that hex core haswell E can now be bought for less than 400.00, right?

Drivel. My gpu isn't running any faster on 8 cores and any encoding needs I have can be taken care of far faster with a single GPU than 8 Intel cores

 

[ShintaiDK]

The reason Intel overcharges for 8 core CPUs is that they are protecting server SKU market shares. If they sold them priced on die area they would cannibalize on server SKUs.

Two options for AMD :

1. Sell 8 core Zen at $999, and sell nearly nothing, making nearly no total profit.
2. Sell 8 core Zen at mainstream prices (FX8350 / 4690K price range). Sell lots of CPUs, make a little less profit on each, but more profit in total.

Go figure what AMD will chose.

If that was the case, why is Intel selling 1000$ quadcores in the server market? Arcording to you, everyone should just buy a 4790K instead for their business servers.

AMD will choose the money. At 200$ you are going to pay for AMD quadcores if the performance is as you dream about. The only way to get 200$ octocores is if the performance is only worth 200$.

 

[Fjodor2001]

If that was the case, why is Intel selling 1000$ quadcores in the server market? Arcording to you, everyone should just buy a 4790K instead for their business servers.

AMD will choose the money. At 200$ you are going to pay for AMD quadcores if the performance is as you dream about. The only way to get 200$ octocores is if the performance is only worth 200$.

FX8350 and friends were also in the Performance range according to AMD. Expect 8 core Zens to be as well, and priced accordingly.

8 core Zen is direct successor to FX8xxx series.

 

[ShintaiDK]

FX8350 and friends were also in the Performance range according to AMD. Expect 8 core Zens to be as well, and priced accordingly.

8 core Zen is direct successor to FX8xxx series.

If thats the case, then we also know the performance estimate of Zen.

 

[sefsefsefsef]

Its not in the mainstream segment. No wonder you keep getting it wrong. Its in the Premium Performance segment together with 2 HEDT chips.

You have to go down to i5 before you hit the mainstream segment.

Intel doesn't seem to categorize its CPUs into enthusiast/mainstream categories. Rather, it categorizes *chipsets* as enthusiast/mainstream:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/search.html?toplevelcategory=none&keyword=mainstream
(note, that there is no reference anywhere to a CPU model being "mainstream" or "enthusiast," only chipsets)

By this definition, the i7-4790k is absolutely a mainstream part (because it can work with a mainstream chipset), and the i7-5820k is an enthusiast part.

 

[MrTeal]

I don't agree with this.

On the highest mainstream I7 CPU's - more and more of the die is dedicated to an IGPU that is completely pointless for the vast majority of users buying that mainstream I7 CPU.

Intel could instead make the top mainstream I7 CPU have no IGPU, and dedicate much more of the die to additional CPU cores.

Instead, they continue to dedicate more and more of the die to the IGPU - give it another 2 or 3 generations and god knows how large the IGPU will be.

This is almost forcing people onto the HEDT x99 platform, whether they like it or not, which commands a significant premium over Z97/Z170. You have to buy 4 DIMMS for the quad channel memory (to take full advantage of it at least), the X99 motherboards command a significant premium over the mainstream motherboards, etc.

There is no reason other than profit margins, for the top mainstream I7 to have such a large proportion of the die dedicated to a 'useless' feature for many.

You do know that the mainstream i7 uses the same die as the i5 and i3, correct? Most people might not need the iGPU in an unlocked i7-4790k, but there are many (many) more buyers purchasing dual and quad-core Haswell chips that very much can use the iGPU. Gamers might want to what is essentially the HEDT chip in a 1150 socket, but there's obviously just not enough money in that market for Intel to create an entirely new chip for those that want it but don't want to pay the couple hundred dollars to move to HEDT.

Edit: BTW - This doesn't just apply to Intel. I'd say there would be a market for a non-APU Excavator chip that isn't an Opteron. That market doesn't appear to be large enough for AMD to actually make a HEDT successor to Piledriver though

 

[ShintaiDK]

Intel doesn't seem to categorize its CPUs into enthusiast/mainstream categories. Rather, it categorizes *chipsets* as enthusiast/mainstream:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/search.html?toplevelcategory=none&keyword=mainstream
(note, that there is no reference anywhere to a CPU model being "mainstream" or "enthusiast," only chipsets)

By this definition, the i7-4790k is absolutely a mainstream part (because it can work with a mainstream chipset), and the i7-5820k is an enthusiast part.

 

[Ketchup]

I'll take a stab at this:

#1 Most software doesn't use more than two cores.

#2 The last OS I remember running slow on current hardware was Vista.

#3 People are buying more tablets and smart phones than new desktops/ laptops.
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ss-pcs-fulfilling-steve-jobs-post-pc-prophecy

So Intel has shifted its focus. I am very impressed with how quickly my CPU can encode video, play games, run multiple virtual machines, and generally launch anything in no time flat (the last due to the SSD, I know). My 2500k was fast, but I would be lying if I said that I couldn't tell a difference.