Why are we letting Iran develop in to a major threat?

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Craig234
The logic is basically an arrogance of power and security: anyone else who can be strong enough to hurt us is a totally unacceptable threat, because we imagine the worst people coming to power and doing so without regards to consequences - while these right-wingers are utterly incapable of avoiding a double standard in considering how they see the US as a threat.

Did you listen only to the words of brotherly love that Ahmedinejad had to say when he was at the UN? Or are you also up to date with what he says back home, away from the international cameras?

I guess when someone says that a world without the U.S. is possible, you don't think it is a veiled threat, do you?

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hezbollah elected DEMOCRATICALLY? Ya know, the thing we went guns blazing in Iraq to try and spread / defend?

Not to taint the topic with the WW2-era tar brush, but so was fascist Italy under Mussolini. And like Mussolini, Hezbollah today gathers much of its support by organizing and fanning out armed terror squads around the nation in order to "protect" Lebanon.

I guess I should also add that capitalizing and busting out the word "democratically" as if it's some kind of trump word that ends all previous debate is a little too elementary even for this forum.

You just stripped away any legitimacy for the terrorist Bush regime and a variety of other US administrations who have orchestrated massive terrorism.

...Yeah, I'm going to refrain from going down the bash Bush path you're obviously aching to skip down at any opportunity and pretend like I never read your reply. Dull, beat to death topic which I see zero relevance to in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Craig234
The logic is basically an arrogance of power and security: anyone else who can be strong enough to hurt us is a totally unacceptable threat, because we imagine the worst people coming to power and doing so without regards to consequences - while these right-wingers are utterly incapable of avoiding a double standard in considering how they see the US as a threat.

Did you listen only to the words of brotherly love that Ahmedinejad had to say when he was at the UN? Or are you also up to date with what he says back home, away from the international cameras?

I guess when someone says that a world without the U.S. is possible, you don't think it is a veiled threat, do you?

The Soviet Union said far worse crap than that and they could have actually destroyed us.

Iran's President is not even the leader of Iran nor can Iran touch us.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Aimster
You dont think Hezbollah is rearming themselves at this very moment?

They have enough cash to rebuild. All that is left is rearming. Even if they aren't rearmed they still have enough weapons to counter another Israel wave...

I know they are rearming, and they are doing so under the auspices of the glorious UNIFIL force.

Someone commented earlier about how things should be resolved through the UNSC -- well, here we go, we sure have them resolved, with UNIFIL being afraid of the dark, Hezbollah rearming like crazy, and poised to take over Lebanon.

Honestly, I don't know what's it gonna take to convince these stupid Europeans of how things really work; perhaps if Hezbollah takes over the country, and then slaughters some UNIFIL soldiers from France and Italy, maybe that will shake things up a little.

Originally posted by: Aimster
The Soviet Union said far worse crap than that and they could have actually destroyed us.

The USSR wasn't ruled by some wacky "here-comes-the-prophet" religious leaders.
I'd say that someone willing to send children with plastic keys to clear minefileds is quite unpredictable.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
The attitude you're talking about isn't as unique as you might think, it's essentially the same attitude that every other "Empire" in the history of the world has displayed. In fact, we're far more subdued about it than previous examples. The various European powers giving us such a hard time right now behaved FAR worse when they held the reigns, and the Middle East is full of countries that behaved far worse than that when they were on top. China and Russia shouldn't be allowed to lecture anyone on abuses of power either, since their history is filled with examples of the worst of imperial abuse. If Iran was baiting the British Empire of old, or the Roman Empire we're so frequently compared to, they would have been smashed flat a long time ago.

Of course that doesn't excuse the attitude, but it certainly indicates where it's coming from. We're at the point in history where powerful countries can no longer go around doing whatever they damn well please, and that pisses a lot of people off...just when we get to this point, the game is declared over. Sorry, we have to behave nicely now, because that's what new empires do. Except we don't, by the new standards, so we get called on it, and THAT pisses even more people off. We "hate" the French because they stood up to us in a way no country of their stature would have DARED do to a country of our stature in any previous point in history.

Now I tend to think that our value lies in the fact that we DON'T behave like our cousins in England did during the past several centuries, their history is filled with examples of why empires like that are bad...but I see where todays "imperialists" are coming from.

Raisnford, your points are well taken; I think that you misunderstood my comments about the right-wing people as comments about America overall.

The fact is that our liberal traditions such as freedom of speech do allow our population a far better opportunity to get informed and escape the propaganda, if they put the effort in.

We have a considerable opposition to our goernment's wrongdoing, even if 40% of the population in opposition has zero percent say in policy when the lose the election - but you may somewhat underestimate the fact that even the older empires had some public opposition. Recall that Julius Caesar himself had to play games about his respect for the Senate and faux-humility, while the government typically defended its latest aggressive attack as 'defensive against a potential threat on the border'.

There are stories of heroic people who saw through the propaganda and opposed wrongdoing. Remember, even Hitler had assassination attempts.

One of the benefits we have is that actually communism caused our nation to do a lot of good things. Before communism took hold, we were off doing things like the war with Spain in Cuba and the aforementioned domination of the Phillippenes; soon after, the Phillippenes were abandoned. When millions of Americans were looking at what the Great Deppression had brought and were looking favorably towards socialist if not communist policies, our government responded to the threat by greatly liberalizing the conditions for American citizens, pacifying them and doing great good. When the US found itself competing with the USSR at the height of the cold war, when the USSR would offer food and aid to nations impoverished by harsh treatment by the Western colonial powers, the US - especially under Kennedy - began to use support for freedom and real neutrality as weapons to get the third world nations to ally with the west rather than the Soviets.

Absent the USSR now, there is less incentive for the US to continue some of those policies.

But thank goodness we do have our rights such as they are to get around the massive propaganda and learn more accurate info, even though we need to do better at getting more citizens better informed. There's a lot of good news about how well informed millions and millions of Americans are to find; we just need to get the numbers higher.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Aimster
You dont think Hezbollah is rearming themselves at this very moment?

They have enough cash to rebuild. All that is left is rearming. Even if they aren't rearmed they still have enough weapons to counter another Israel wave...

I know they are rearming, and they are doing so under the auspices of the glorious UNIFIL force.

Someone commented earlier about how things should be resolved through the UNSC -- well, here we go, we sure have them resolved, with UNIFIL being afraid of the dark, Hezbollah rearming like crazy, and poised to take over Lebanon.

Honestly, I don't know what's it gonna take to convince these stupid Europeans of how things really work; perhaps if Hezbollah takes over the country, and then slaughters some UNIFIL soldiers from France and Italy, maybe that will shake things up a little.

Originally posted by: Aimster
The Soviet Union said far worse crap than that and they could have actually destroyed us.

The USSR wasn't ruled by some wacky "here-comes-the-prophet" religious leaders.
I'd say that someone willing to send children with plastic keys to clear minefileds is quite unpredictable.

And yet you never answered my question? Do you want the United States to invade Iran? Would you support it?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Narmer
And yet you never answered my question? Do you want the United States to invade Iran? Would you support it?

Oh, I'm sorry, you phrased your question so nicely that I thought it was a rhetoric one.

I don't think it is the time to invade Iran, but I do think that the international community should do more. What worries me is that the Russians are providing much support to the Iranians, and perhaps that is part of some grand scheme of theirs to regain an influential position. They surely put plenty of opposition to a UNSC resolution.

 

[2Xtreme21]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hezbollah elected DEMOCRATICALLY? Ya know, the thing we went guns blazing in Iraq to try and spread / defend?

Not to taint the topic with the WW2-era tar brush, but so was fascist Italy under Mussolini. And like Mussolini, Hezbollah today gathers much of its support by organizing and fanning out armed terror squads around the nation in order to "protect" Lebanon.

I guess I should also add that capitalizing and busting out the word "democratically" as if it's some kind of trump word that ends all previous debate is a little too elementary even for this forum.

Haha, but we've had a president lead us into war and thousands of deaths under that word. Don't underestimate! 🙂

 

[imported_dna]

What a pathetic comparison -- a few thousand dead over more than three years, to the millions lost in WW2.

yllus is right to mention the facists: the same thing is taking place now in Gaza, after Hamas got democratically elected -- Internet cafes are burned, radio stations and record stores warned about Western music, barber shops for Western-style haircutes, and recently they started throwing acid on the face of "undecent" women.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: dna
What a pathetic comparison -- a few thousand dead over more than three years, to the millions lost in WW2.

yllus is right to mention the facists: the same thing is taking place now in Gaza, after Hamas got democratically elected -- Internet cafes are burned, radio stations and record stores warned about Western music, barber shops for Western-style haircutes, and recently they started throwing acid on the face of "undecent" women.

Please don't think we are all that stupid. Hamas while having radical views toward a jewish only state is not Al Qaeda. Palestinians are way more liberal in their views then say Saudis. Hey if you are going to make statements like the one you just made then I can say..."If anything those shops were more then likely blown up by Israel ordnance."

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Narmer
And yet you never answered my question? Do you want the United States to invade Iran? Would you support it?

Oh, I'm sorry, you phrased your question so nicely that I thought it was a rhetoric one.

I don't think it is the time to invade Iran, but I do think that the international community should do more. What worries me is that the Russians are providing much support to the Iranians, and perhaps that is part of some grand scheme of theirs to regain an influential position. They surely put plenty of opposition to a UNSC resolution.

And that's the jist of your problem. For you, the international community includes Israel, America, and a couple of European countries. In total? Probably 10 or less. Meanwhile, 95% of the world doesn't care about Iran having nuclear technology nor should they because Iran is not a threat to them and never has been.

There is not "international community" that's concerned about Iran. It's only a handful of nations that like to cloak themselves as speaking for a large body of nations. I think the President of Iran said it perfectly when he said that America and UK use the United Nation's Security Council as a legitimate tool when it suits them?

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Yeh, if we bomb the hell out of 'em, they'll capitulate, get all lovey-dovey after burying their family members... rebuilding their cities...

Obviously, no occupation would be required to prevent the rise of a more radical regime in place of the old... maybe just kill 'em all, it's the only way to be sure...

And, of course, Israel is represented as some kind of "ally", rather than a parasite, latched onto the American psyche with the most amazing guilt trip ever conceived...

And this-

"Now we have an egocentric leader with religious leanings that border on the absurd, with nuclear aspirations ..."

For a second there, I thought you were talking about Bush, or Olmert....

And dna enters the fray, zionist that he is... laying out the most improbable and absurd scenarios...

Do you actually beieve this stuff, or are you just hoping that others will?

Glad to see Minister Farrakhan posting on these forums! When will you be flying in to Tehran to give your keynote speech on, "the most amazing guilt trip ever conceived"?

 

[shadow9d9]

Get rid of the need for oil and the ME will go bankrupt... war is not the solution.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Drift3r
To bad Israel undermined that goverment with it's last offensive. Why not go ahead and launch another to further push the Lebanese in the the hands of Hezbollah and finally tip that government over.

Undermined? If anything, Hezbollah was weakend, losing soldiers, facilities, and weapons.

Your remark is hilarious, since it implies that the Gov. was stronger prior to the conflict; in fact, it was so strong that the army did not dare venture into the south of the country, and certain neighbrohoods were off-limit even in the capital.

Undermined? You really are a lost cause sometimes..

You really think all the killing of lebanese by Israel is going to undermine the peoples resolve to get revenge etc... Just like our offensive in Iraq and Afghanistan has weakened al-qaeda and has reduced world terrorism?

Violence BEGETS Violence..

That's why Israel responded to being attacked.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hezbollah elected DEMOCRATICALLY? Ya know, the thing we went guns blazing in Iraq to try and spread / defend?

Those who elect war against us should feel the consequences of that war.

 

[imported_dna]

Hamas while having radical views toward a jewish only state is not Al Qaeda. Palestinians are way more liberal in their views then say Saudis. Hey if you are going to make statements like the one you just made then I can say..."If anything those shops were more then likely blown up by Israel ordnance."

I was simply giving of another example of a democratically elected group that once in power uses it to destroy democracy. yllus mentioned Italy, while another fine example are the Nazis in Germany -- they were elected democratically, and then they dismantled democracy.

Other than that, it doesn't matter how liberal the Palestinian population is -- Hamas is the party in power, and they carry guns, and aren't afraid to use them.

 

[fskimospy]

Why does anyone care what the president of Iran does? He has no power. Sure he can poke around and make big speeches, but literally everything he does is only done so with the okay of the council of guardians.

These people are not crazy, despite what you might want to think. They will not suddenly start lobbing nukes around everywhere if and when they get them, because they know that will mean their immediate destruction. They want them for a super obvious reason: once they have them we can't start trying to kill them anymore.

Haven't we learned our lesson about illegal preemptive wars yet? If we did this badly against the (by FAR) weakest member of the Axis of Evil, what do you think a real country can do? I'm sure they already have tons of plans to sink ships and mine the straights of hormuz... and countless other things. It's not that we can't beat the hell out of them in a war, its that if Iraq should have made us learn even one thing, its that wars have unintended consequences.

 

[Enig101]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Why does anyone care what the president of Iran does? He has no power. Sure he can poke around and make big speeches, but literally everything he does is only done so with the okay of the council of guardians.

These people are not crazy, despite what you might want to think. They will not suddenly start lobbing nukes around everywhere if and when they get them, because they know that will mean their immediate destruction. They want them for a super obvious reason: once they have them we can't start trying to kill them anymore.

Haven't we learned our lesson about illegal preemptive wars yet? If we did this badly against the (by FAR) weakest member of the Axis of Evil, what do you think a real country can do? I'm sure they already have tons of plans to sink ships and mine the straights of hormuz... and countless other things. It's not that we can't beat the hell out of them in a war, its that if Iraq should have made us learn even one thing, its that wars have unintended consequences.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Get rid of the need for oil and the ME will go bankrupt... war is not the solution.

Bada-bing Bada-boom

 

[Aimster]

Egypt Population 80 million - no oil revenue- income
Turkey Population 70 million - no oil revenue- income (best economy in the M.E)
Jordan - no oil revenue
Lebanon - no oil revenue
Israel - no oil revenue
Palestine - no oil revenue
Syria - no oil revenue

Iran Population 70 million - oil production 4mbpd, oil consumption 2mbpd.
UAE - 45% of income is oil revenue and dropping by 8% each year. (UAE has a population the size of half of NYC).
-Qatar, Kuwait are identical (their populations are the size of single U.S cities, these are small countries)

Saudi Arabia - oil king. Their entire economy is oil. Their population is significantly less than Egypt or Turkey.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Get rid of the need for oil and the ME will go bankrupt... war is not the solution.

the only real answer that would mean anything.
whats a shame though is a country like Iran with all its oil wealth could do a heck of a lot for its people, but the money seems to go elsewhere.
I think the US and UN did more in the Bam Earthquake then Iran did?
http://goasia.about.com/cs/azsiteindex/a/blbamearthquake.htm

 

[imported_dna]

Wake up, people; all this talk about oil is baloney, as everybody knows that once you remove Israel, the Middle East will become a paradise -- just ask the Al-Jazeera editor in chief:

Who is responsible for the situation?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

 

[Craig234]

Wake up, people; all this talk about oil is baloney, as everybody knows that once you remove Israel, the Middle East will become a paradise -- just ask the Al-Jazeera editor in chief:

Nice straw man by saying 'paradise' in the Middle East, your word not his and a misrepresentation of his comments, but maybe you should get the idea that he's right that the Palastenian situation is causing problems in the region; you can ask people from Tony Blair to the Baker-Hamilton commission, who said the Palastenian situation is important to Iraq.

Maybe you should remember that Israel was indeed 'forced' on the region by the west, to atone for the west's (Hitler's) crimes against the Jews and Europe's unwillngness to let the Jews immigrate en masse to their own nations (remember, Hitler's policy was to export the Jews until the European nations closed their doors to them).

While we can stand up for the rights of Israel, there's no reason not to recognize the point of view of the others in the region as well and try to find solutions which treat both sides as well as possible.

Imagine if Hitler had put the Jewish people inside the US against our will, and then armed better than we were armed, as they begain to virtually imprison millions of Americans surrounding their nation inside our nation. How long until we 'accepted' the situation, while Germany demands we recognize them? Efforts to treat the muslims fairly are warranted.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Seek professional help. Living with paranoid delusions isn't pleasant or healthy, either for the afflicted or anybody close to them.

Right.. Paranoid delusions?
How about taking a history lesson. This pattern has played out many times before.
Now we have an egocentric leader with religious leanings that border on the absurd, with nuclear aspirations who has previously stated that a major ally should be wiped off the map and destroyed, which would lead to a broader nuclear war throughout the region. Can you imagine what would happen to our energy supply if that happens?

Of course the only paranoid delusions apologist such as yourself have involve the US and their allies - while making excuses for authoritarian and repressive regimes that have no business existing in the modern world.

The 'pattern' that plays out is US interference in foreign sovereign nations builds hostility against us. The more arrogant and egocentric we are, the more at risk we are. The time has come for all nations (but especially America) to accept that ALL persons in the world are equal, that no nation has rights over another nation, and quit seeing things through selfish eyes. That's the path to solutions.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Seek professional help. Living with paranoid delusions isn't pleasant or healthy, either for the afflicted or anybody close to them.

Right.. Paranoid delusions?
How about taking a history lesson. This pattern has played out many times before.
Now we have an egocentric leader with religious leanings that border on the absurd, with nuclear aspirations who has previously stated that a major ally should be wiped off the map and destroyed, which would lead to a broader nuclear war throughout the region. Can you imagine what would happen to our energy supply if that happens?

Of course the only paranoid delusions apologist such as yourself have involve the US and their allies - while making excuses for authoritarian and repressive regimes that have no business existing in the modern world.

The 'pattern' that plays out is US interference in foreign sovereign nations builds hostility against us. The more arrogant and egocentric we are, the more at risk we are. The time has come for all nations (but especially America) to accept that ALL persons in the world are equal, that no nation has rights over another nation, and quit seeing things through selfish eyes. That's the path to solutions.

Then when a nation like Iran defies that very thought, wages WAR against multiple nations through proxy, you stand up and defend their war trying to banish us from responding before it turns into nuclear war.

You CANNOT have that ideology if you?re simply going to stand by while others ignore and abuse it. You have to stop them, or all you?re doing is wishful thinking as people die.