Why are we even involved in Libia?

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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
I somehow don't think this Libya deal is working out as planned. Qaddafi's troop are still kicking the rebels ass. The major players in the UN force are playing hot potato on who is going to be in charge. I guess no one wants to be in charge of a plan that's destined for failure.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Welcome to the War Powers Act. Congress almost has become irrelevant except for the illusion of upholding a representative democracy.


Somebody has to do all the hand waving and arrange all the smoke and mirrors.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Why not? The F-35 is much more advanced, and IIRC the JSF project was originally designed to bring all American fighters under one banner at a cheaper cost than the F-22. The F-15 is a multi-role fighter, so is the F-35. Progression seems logical to me.
The F-15A & C are multi-role fighters, designed purely for air superiority. The F-15E is a strike aircraft cable of functioning (and fairly well) as a multi-role fighter at need; it is the vision for the Aardvark written successfully, and the "F" designation is largely because of its secondary missions as a long range strike fighter or escort fighter. As designed it's an aircraft capable of either escorting bombers deeply into hostile air space, or of making its own excursions into second grade air defenses and carrying out attack missions while defending itself. (Rather than having some planes configured as fighters and some configured as attack within a homogeneous strike package.) The F-15E has a much stronger airframe, stronger wings, standard conformal fuel tanks, a two-crew design (as opposed to non-fighting trainer versions of the F-15A & F-15C), different engines, and much different electronics suits. The F-35 is a single crew, single engine multi-role fighter which is already overweight and sluggish by modern fighter standards; adding the F-15E's roles to the F-35 would require defining those standards down to something the F-35 could conceivable meet.

I'll bow to Eagle Keeper as I'm in no way an expert, but it's my understanding that the Strike Eagle is to continue in its front line duties through the 2025 or possibly 2030 time frame and that no successor is currently under active design (as opposed to studies.) Personally I'd expect a successor to come from the F-22 line - but as I said, I'm in no way an expert, nor even read up on current Air Force public plans.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Not our place period. Our military is not the worlds cops. if you are that concerned fly over to lybia and pick a side to fight for. Or better yet go to darfur, where we have not had military ops. the next question is why havent we?

Why not Darfur? Because China would throw a hissy fit.

And, as someone else pointed out, we are the world police, like it or not. We intervened in Serbia to prevent a genocide and the thinking (not saying it's right) is that we're intervening in Libya to prevent the same thing.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Not our place period. Our military is not the worlds cops. if you are that concerned fly over to lybia and pick a side to fight for. Or better yet go to darfur, where we have not had military ops. the next question is why havent we?
Want to stop our military from being used as world cops. Stop funding it as such.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
I dont believe the official line for why we are in Libya, supposedly we are there to stop Gaddafi from slaughtering innocent people. Yet if you read between the lines on the biased news articles that the Mass media spews out, its clear that the battles are between Armed Rebels and the Libyan Army. Most casualties seem to be Rebel and Libyan Army to, with a small ammount of "real" civilian deaths. In other words we are being lied to day in and day out about Libya. There is no intentional killing of civilians, the only deliberate "civilian" deaths are those civilians who chose to pick up AK47s and attack the Army.


The MSM is claiming every Rebel death as a "Civilian" death to make Libya look urgent. Why ? Who knows, but its a load of bullshit and we have no business picking a side to win a Civil war. From the bombings of ground units, including tanks and artillery to the shelling of jeeps, its clear we are trying to destroy Libya's ground forces so that the Rebels can win. Oh and the Rebels just appointed a US educated man to be their leader today [can you say Puppet?].



Heres the latest article from the Associated press. Read between the lines...Notice how there is no mention of Rebels in Misrata at first, that comes later and its very brief. We are supposed to believe the city is surrounded by Gaddafi's army so that they can kill innocent people and nothing more. But later on in the article, the AP slips up and Rebels are mentioned in Misrata [shock!]. The city of Zintan is mentioned later on to, Zintan is where we get a better picture of what the real picture of Libya is [and what is going on in Misrata aswell]. It is clearly a Civil war and nothing more or less.


http://www9.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110320/AF.Libya/


"Speaking from the U.S. command ship in the Mediterranean, Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber said the coalition was targeting Gadhafi's mechanized forces, his artillery and mobile missile sites as well as ammunition and other military supplies. He said coalition forces have moved west to try to protect Ajdabiya and Misrata.

A doctor in Misrata said the tanks fled after the airstrikes began around midnight, giving a much-needed reprieve to the city, which is inaccessible to human rights monitors or journalists. He said the airstrikes, which Canada said were from its pilots, struck the aviation academy and a vacant lot outside the central hospital."

Later on the article slips up and mentions rebels in Misrata..

"The withdrawal of the tanks from Misrata was a rare success for the rebels. The disorganized opposition holds much of the east but has struggled to take advantage of the international air campaign that saved them from the brink of defeat."

So the truth comes out. We bombed Misrata to give the Rebels a chance of taking that city back. And we call it a Rebel success to boot, when they only managed to claim land that we cleared for them via bombing.


Later on the article talks about Zintan.


"In Zintan, a resident said Gadhafi's forces were at the base of a nearby mountain and were shelling in that area, but rebels forced their retreat from all but one side of the city. After five days of fighting, resident Ali al-Azhari said, rebel fighters captured or destroyed several tanks, and seized trucks loaded with 1,200 Grad missiles and fuel tanks. They captured five Gadhafi troops.

Al-Azhari, who spoke to The Associated Press by phone from the city, said one officer told rebels he had order "to turn Zintan to a desert to be smashed and flattened." Resentment against Gadhafi runs high in Zintan, a city of 100,000 about 75 miles (120 kilometers) south of Tripoli, because it was the hometown of many of the detained army officers who took part in a failed coup in 1993.

Pro-Gadhafi troops who have besieged Ajdabiya attacked a few hundred rebels on the outskirts Wednesday. The rebels fired back with Katyusha rockets but have found themselves outgunned. Plumes of smoke rose over the city, which is 95 miles (150 kilometers) south of the de-facto rebel capital of Benghazi.

People fleeing the violence said the rebels controlled the city center while Gadhafi's forces were holding the outskirts."


The quoted part of the AP article below is ironic, since its such a bold lie. Anyone keeping a eye on Libya prior to Western intervention knew that Libya's army was about to win their Civil war. But at the last minute the West jumped in to save the Rebels. The Rebels were clearly defeated, since they were pushed back to their stronghold of Benghazi and that city was about to fall when we began our bombing campaign.

"Neither the rebels nor Gadhafi has mustered the force for an outright victory, raising concerns of a prolonged conflict in the cities were they are locked in combat, such as Misrata and Zintan in the west and Ajdabiya, a city of 140,000 that is the gateway to the east."



Clearly it is a civil war and we have no business in Libya. If a large group of Armed Rebels rose up and took New York city by force and other areas...You know for a fact that the National guard and the Army would be sent in asap. And any civilian deaths from that conflict would be blamed on the Rebels to, since they started the conflict. Remember, peaceful protests are Ok but violent ones are not [thats the US policy in our own country]. So we are hypocrites.

So what are we after in Libya...Is it so that France and the UK can lock down their Oil supply ? Europe gets most of their Oil from Libya, maybe that is why the US is not as eager as they are to attack Libya. France especially is gung-ho to jump into Libya.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
i thought we were setting up a no fly zone, not doing bombing runs on tanks and land based military installations? guess this is a full on war now, we're just beating around the bush at calling it one.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
It is a no fly zone. Libya apparently has flying tanks, flying cars and flying buildings ! They also have Jeeps that can fly to apparently.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
the hell--why as the thread title not been corrected?

I keep reading it as: "Why are we involved in Labia?"

:D
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146

Is it too difficult for the pudding-headed righties to understand that this is a UN-backed action--this is not "Obama's invasion." In fact, France and UK are more involved than we are--or so it seems.

The rebels in Libya, and the Arab league requested support.

trying to connect this to Iraq is absolutely stupid.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
I dont believe the official line for why we are in Libya, supposedly we are there to stop Gaddafi from slaughtering innocent people. Yet if you read between the lines on the biased news articles that the Mass media spews out, its clear that the battles are between Armed Rebels and the Libyan Army. Most casualties seem to be Rebel and Libyan Army to, with a small ammount of "real" civilian deaths. In other words we are being lied to day in and day out about Libya. There is no intentional killing of civilians, the only deliberate "civilian" deaths are those civilians who chose to pick up AK47s and attack the Army.


The MSM is claiming every Rebel death as a "Civilian" death to make Libya look urgent. Why ? Who knows, but its a load of bullshit and we have no business picking a side to win a Civil war. From the bombings of ground units, including tanks and artillery to the shelling of jeeps, its clear we are trying to destroy Libya's ground forces so that the Rebels can win. Oh and the Rebels just appointed a US educated man to be their leader today [can you say Puppet?].



Heres the latest article from the Associated press. Read between the lines...Notice how there is no mention of Rebels in Misrata at first, that comes later and its very brief. We are supposed to believe the city is surrounded by Gaddafi's army so that they can kill innocent people and nothing more. But later on in the article, the AP slips up and Rebels are mentioned in Misrata [shock!]. The city of Zintan is mentioned later on to, Zintan is where we get a better picture of what the real picture of Libya is [and what is going on in Misrata aswell]. It is clearly a Civil war and nothing more or less.


http://www9.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110320/AF.Libya/


"Speaking from the U.S. command ship in the Mediterranean, Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber said the coalition was targeting Gadhafi's mechanized forces, his artillery and mobile missile sites as well as ammunition and other military supplies. He said coalition forces have moved west to try to protect Ajdabiya and Misrata.

A doctor in Misrata said the tanks fled after the airstrikes began around midnight, giving a much-needed reprieve to the city, which is inaccessible to human rights monitors or journalists. He said the airstrikes, which Canada said were from its pilots, struck the aviation academy and a vacant lot outside the central hospital."

Later on the article slips up and mentions rebels in Misrata..

"The withdrawal of the tanks from Misrata was a rare success for the rebels. The disorganized opposition holds much of the east but has struggled to take advantage of the international air campaign that saved them from the brink of defeat."

So the truth comes out. We bombed Misrata to give the Rebels a chance of taking that city back. And we call it a Rebel success to boot, when they only managed to claim land that we cleared for them via bombing.


Later on the article talks about Zintan.


"In Zintan, a resident said Gadhafi's forces were at the base of a nearby mountain and were shelling in that area, but rebels forced their retreat from all but one side of the city. After five days of fighting, resident Ali al-Azhari said, rebel fighters captured or destroyed several tanks, and seized trucks loaded with 1,200 Grad missiles and fuel tanks. They captured five Gadhafi troops.

Al-Azhari, who spoke to The Associated Press by phone from the city, said one officer told rebels he had order "to turn Zintan to a desert to be smashed and flattened." Resentment against Gadhafi runs high in Zintan, a city of 100,000 about 75 miles (120 kilometers) south of Tripoli, because it was the hometown of many of the detained army officers who took part in a failed coup in 1993.

Pro-Gadhafi troops who have besieged Ajdabiya attacked a few hundred rebels on the outskirts Wednesday. The rebels fired back with Katyusha rockets but have found themselves outgunned. Plumes of smoke rose over the city, which is 95 miles (150 kilometers) south of the de-facto rebel capital of Benghazi.

People fleeing the violence said the rebels controlled the city center while Gadhafi's forces were holding the outskirts."


The quoted part of the AP article below is ironic, since its such a bold lie. Anyone keeping a eye on Libya prior to Western intervention knew that Libya's army was about to win their Civil war. But at the last minute the West jumped in to save the Rebels. The Rebels were clearly defeated, since they were pushed back to their stronghold of Benghazi and that city was about to fall when we began our bombing campaign.

"Neither the rebels nor Gadhafi has mustered the force for an outright victory, raising concerns of a prolonged conflict in the cities were they are locked in combat, such as Misrata and Zintan in the west and Ajdabiya, a city of 140,000 that is the gateway to the east."



Clearly it is a civil war and we have no business in Libya. If a large group of Armed Rebels rose up and took New York city by force and other areas...You know for a fact that the National guard and the Army would be sent in asap. And any civilian deaths from that conflict would be blamed on the Rebels to, since they started the conflict. Remember, peaceful protests are Ok but violent ones are not [thats the US policy in our own country]. So we are hypocrites.

So what are we after in Libya...Is it so that France and the UK can lock down their Oil supply ? Europe gets most of their Oil from Libya, maybe that is why the US is not as eager as they are to attack Libya. France especially is gung-ho to jump into Libya.

Currently, the Ghadaffi-occupied cities are in complete lockdown, so it's almost impossible to verify one way or another what is actually going on inside those places.

Some people have leaked out cell phone video, though, and messages, talking about snipers taking out unarmed citizens.

It also seems that much of what is going on in Tripoli--the green flag-waving demonstrations are an act of show. There is video of a couple of frightened citizens claiming that the true nation of Libya is against the regime.

again, it is difficult to verify this completely, but to suggest that we know nothing, or that we are being lied to, is completely dishonest.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Is it too difficult for the pudding-headed righties to understand that this is a UN-backed action--this is not "Obama's invasion." In fact, France and UK are more involved than we are--or so it seems.

The rebels in Libya, and the Arab league requested support.

trying to connect this to Iraq is absolutely stupid.

NATO literally could not have done this operation without us. I read an article earlier that expressed that US is the only NATO nation capable of running the command & control element for an operation of this type.

We can act unilaterally without the UN, and have done so in the past. Just because they say we should fight Libya doesn't mean we have to do it.

Allow me to reiterate the fact that the US has no business whatsoever in Libya.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
The last 5 decades disagrees with you. It has been our place and it's a role where we've had both hits and misses, but that's the nature of such things.

Nor am I "concerned." I'm simply pointing out the facts to you, not supporting the action one way or another. I really don't care one way or another about involvement in Libya. So stop being so knee-jerk about it.

If you want to talk about "facts" then talk about how nobody from world police gives a damn about oppressive regimes and genocide in countries without oil. You say it's our role and responsibility to be world police? I say bullsh!t. The fact that we engaged in imperialist wars when our nation was not being attacked for the past five decades does not justify this pointless war either.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Mr. Gingrich. Your thoughts about Libya from March 7?

VAN SUSTEREN: What would you do about Libya?

GINGRICH: Exercise a no-fly zone this evening, communicate to the Libyan military that Gadhafi was gone and that the sooner they switch sides, the more like they were to survive, provided help to the rebels to replace him

I see. Very interesting. And now that Presidnet Obama has essentially done that, what is your position now?

GINGRICH: Let me draw the distinction. I would not have intervened. I think there were a lot of other ways to affect Qaddafi. I think there are a lot of other allies in the region we could have worked with. I would not have used American and European forces.

Ok, this is cut and paste from Slate and we should know by now not to trust quick video edits as they may be misleading, http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/we...ely-changes-position-on-libya-in-16-days.aspx

but if someone wants to have a go at reconciliation there, please have at it.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
If you want to talk about "facts" then talk about how nobody from world police gives a damn about oppressive regimes and genocide in countries without oil. You say it's our role and responsibility to be world police? I say bullsh!t. The fact that we engaged in imperialist wars when our nation was not being attacked for the past five decades does not justify this pointless war either.
It's only about oil? Really? Then what explains our interventions in Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, and Yugoslavia/Kosovo?

Apparently "facts" are only those facts you want to see.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
NATO literally could not have done this operation without us. I read an article earlier that expressed that US is the only NATO nation capable of running the command & control element for an operation of this type.

We can act unilaterally without the UN, and have done so in the past. Just because they say we should fight Libya doesn't mean we have to do it.

Allow me to reiterate the fact that the US has no business whatsoever in Libya.

I agree with that--but we also had no business in Kosovo, or in Somalia, but we were there.

The thing about Qaddafi, though, is that he truly has proven to be a legit threat to US safety. We have a 30 year history of this guy's insanity and we know he is perfectly capable and willing to inact genocide on his people. Since we know, for a fact, that he has done this many times in the past, there is no reason to assume that he won't.

Anyhoo, I heard about an hour ago that the US plans to turn over command as early as this weekend, as US command as determined that the Air superiority is established.

it seems that UN/NATO controls the airspace with impunity--and the US commander was sending back intel that Qaddafi forces are, in fact, firing rockets towards unarmed civilians.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
-snip-
The thing about Qaddafi, though, is that he truly has proven to be a legit threat to US safety.

To call that a highly questionable statement is an eggregious example of understatement.

Fern
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
To call that a highly questionable statement is an eggregious example of understatement.

Fern


It is also what got us into Iraq...Anyone remember the WMDs ? Where the hell are they. Thats right. It was a lie, and the Media switched to drumming up "Iraqi Freedom" once it was obvious the WMD claim was a sham. And yet alot of people buy the argument at face value that Libya is slaughtering its people. We were lied to once before and it really looks like this is another lie.

The best proof that we have of a slaughter, are random Arab guys calling up the Associated Press and saying they are being attacked. Thats pretty sad evidence. Who is being attacked, the Rebels or Civilians ? And thats if the person calling is not lying, and what says he isnt a Rebel himself ? Cant get any clarity on it all, especially since armed rebels are described as "protesters" or "innocent civilians" by the press. Black Libyans and immigrants to Libya are called "mercenaries" aswell, despite our own Army employing immigrants.

There are just way to many signs pointing to Bullshit as far as Libya goes, Iraq atleast had its lie laid out pretty well at first [until we took them over and found nothing..]. Libya has...Alot of attempts at deception. The innocent protesters [Read- Armed Rebel wielding a Ak47 rifle and shooting people] is being attacked by the Libyan army. Hmm wonder why.
 
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