Why are VGA/CPU's oriented as they are currently?

SoylentG

Senior member
Oct 26, 2005
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From what i have seen, the 'default' orientation for a video card is to have the heat being either pushed horizontally, or in a downward direction. CPU's default position is to release the heat horizontally.

Would it not be beneficial for the default orientation to have the heat being dissipated in an upward direction? Heat tends to rise, does it not?

Or- are these current configurations simply a result of aesthetic motivations, and/or the desire to keep things simple? I couldn't imagine the latter, but the former...
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
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I think the real reason is because of the ATX standard, plain and simple. there was talk a while back about having a seperate box for the video card, and while that would be an effective way of cooling I would not want to pay the extra cost to get a GPU box.

The rise of heat is really nothing compared to the ability of a fan to move air, there would be no real benefit to a different orientation for the cpu. The video card might have a benefit if it was able to be placed in the case differently because it has nowhere to vent.
 

SoylentG

Senior member
Oct 26, 2005
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Well, to explain why something is done in a specific manner is caused by the standard being as such, raises the question, 'why is the standard set as such?'
 

Nathelion

Senior member
Jan 30, 2006
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Because they came up with the standard back when neither CPUs nor GPUs were the fire-breathing monsters they are today:)
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
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In the original ATX days, a CPU could be adequately cooled by the air moved across it by the power supply's fan. Video cards at that time did not need any exotic cooling. The spec was based on the assumption that this would pretty much continue to be true.

Most CPU coolers now either try to simply draw air into the CPU heatsink, or draw it across and direct it toward an exit from the case.

Most video cards now draw air in and then exhaust it directly out the back of the case, which is reasonably efficient. There are certainly some issues with modern video card cooling (particularly once you have 2 or more video cards).

Also, one nit to pick: heat does not rise. Warm air tends to rise above cooler air. This is why the top section of a case (what is usually the space between the power supply and the optical drives) is generally quite warm; hot air collects there, unless there is a vent or a "blowhole" fan.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: Aluvus
In the original ATX days, a CPU could be adequately cooled by the air moved across it by the power supply's fan. Video cards at that time did not need any exotic cooling. The spec was based on the assumption that this would pretty much continue to be true.

Most CPU coolers now either try to simply draw air into the CPU heatsink, or draw it across and direct it toward an exit from the case.

Most video cards now draw air in and then exhaust it directly out the back of the case, which is reasonably efficient. There are certainly some issues with modern video card cooling (particularly once you have 2 or more video cards).

Also, one nit to pick: heat does not rise. Warm air tends to rise above cooler air.
Cool air sinks, warm air doesn't rise. But when speaking of a fluid, "heat" does rise.
 

aka1nas

Diamond Member
Aug 30, 2001
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At the time that the ATX standard was ratified, GPUs as such did not yet exist. The CPU was the primary source of heat and the ATX board layout is designed to allow airflow over the CPU. Old 2d cards didn't really put out much heat.
 

FrankSchwab

Senior member
Nov 8, 2002
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Man, you kids these days....

Back in the PC/PC-AT days, the component side of all plug-in cards faced towards the power supply (Up, in the common orientation of a tower case). The direction any self-respecting engineer would design the cards to face.

When PCI came out, the engineers decided to maintain backwards compatibility as much as possible. PCI cards were "flipped", so that motherboards could populate both ISA connectors and PCI connectors in the same physical slot. ISA cards would plug into the connector to the left of the case slot, the components would stick out towards the right side of the slot. PCI cards would plug into the connector on the right side of the slot, and the components would stick out towards the left side of the slot. This left the PCI cards upside down from the rational orientation, but allowed motherboard manufacturers to hedge their bets on whether PCI would take off or not. ISA died, PCI took off, and we got stuck with what we've got today.

AGP and PCI-Express cards maintained this orientation for no particularly good reason. I could hazard some guesses (AGP/PCI-Express would have a single slot in the box, and you'd lose the slot to the left because of fears that the bottom of the AGP/PCI-Expres board would hit the bottom of the PCI board, causing shorts), but that's all I could say.

/frank
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
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If your case only had natural convection occurring (i.e. no fans only buoyantly driven airflow) the upside down orientation of the cards would significantly cut the heat transfer, IIRC the reduction would be more than 50% (been a long time since I have looked at natural convection for horizontal objects). Once you have forced airflows (airflow driven by mechanical devices, such as fans), natural convection effects are very significantly reduced and will quickly become negligible, which is why it is important to have good airflow in your case.

BTW: Vertical natural convection is about the same as hot-side up natural convection from a horizontal object, so the horizontally mounted CPU and chipset isn't that big of a deal, especially with fans. In the case of RAM you would be much better off with the RAM pointing vertically than horizontally, which is probably why it is usually setup that way.

EDIT: In short if you have decent airflow in your case, orientation isn't that big of deal.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
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There have been some attempts at change:

Anyone remember the mac G4 in cube form?(looked like a toaster when you put a disk in the top) I think that one had a fanless design that used rising hot air to draw airflow.

Also, some of the old pentium 2s (IIRC) had a large plugin card form factor that mounted perpendicular to the m/b.
 

Acidbath31

Junior Member
May 19, 2007
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yes, the pentium 2's actually reminded me of a old nintendo game cartridge!!!! :p i have one here actually from back in the ancient days!!!! i have a pile of 1st gen pentiums too!!! i have to agree with zorba though on all this cause if the air is moving at a sustained amount of speed, convection really isnt going to help. this was discussed on another forum not too long ago and everyone was laying their cases on their sides and while they did see some improvement ( maybe 5 degrees!?!?) it really had no effect on temps:( i think the BTX standard was suppose to address this, but it never really caught on for whatever reason. i liked that all my components werent upside down in the BTX form factor though!! ------------------------------- ACID ------------------------------------
 

The Borg

Senior member
Apr 9, 2006
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Frank:

First time I have seen anyone point out this rather silly way of designing the expansion cards. With PCI-Express, they had a chance to get it right and missed.

I still have a concern that both GPU's and CPU's are only cooled on one side. What about the board side of the chip?

Remember the days of the 80286 - just another chip on the board. No heat sink or anything.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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It's not a passively cooled system, the difference in orientation is not very important. To ensure compatibility it remains in same configuration previously used before heat levels rose as much and due to that standardized config, it can't be flipped over due to possiblity of interference with parts above it (like a northbridge heatsink).

 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
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Originally posted by: gorobei
There have been some attempts at change:

Anyone remember the mac G4 in cube form?(looked like a toaster when you put a disk in the top) I think that one had a fanless design that used rising hot air to draw airflow.

Also, some of the old pentium 2s (IIRC) had a large plugin card form factor that mounted perpendicular to the m/b.

I've had the joy of working with some of those PIIs, and so ya know, they also had PIIIs in those boxes too. The fastest one I saw with that weird daughterboard setup for the PCI slots was a PIII 733.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: ADDAvengerAlso, some of the old pentium 2s (IIRC) had a large plugin card form factor that mounted perpendicular to the m/b.

I've had the joy of working with some of those PIIs, and so ya know, they also had PIIIs in those boxes too. The fastest one I saw with that weird daughterboard setup for the PCI slots was a PIII 733.[/quote]

Daughterboards have often been popular with OEMs, especially looking to build into a low profile case. A couple examples of more modern systems with the riser are Compaq EVO D510 sales pic and Dell OptiPlex 745 review pic

 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
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Originally posted by: mindless1
It's not a passively cooled system, the difference in orientation is not very important. To ensure compatibility it remains in same configuration previously used before heat levels rose as much and due to that standardized config, it can't be flipped over due to possiblity of interference with parts above it (like a northbridge heatsink).

A video card with the chips facing up would allow bigger heatsinks and not require "2 slot solutions". It makes no sense that they kept PCIE cards facing the same way. The only reason PCI was upside down was so you could have a PCI and an ISA slot for the same expansion bay. If anything they should have put PCIE rightside up to allow PCI and PCIE in the same location!!
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
Originally posted by: mindless1
It's not a passively cooled system, the difference in orientation is not very important. To ensure compatibility it remains in same configuration previously used before heat levels rose as much and due to that standardized config, it can't be flipped over due to possiblity of interference with parts above it (like a northbridge heatsink).

A video card with the chips facing up would allow bigger heatsinks and not require "2 slot solutions". It makes no sense that they kept PCIE cards facing the same way. The only reason PCI was upside down was so you could have a PCI and an ISA slot for the same expansion bay. If anything they should have put PCIE rightside up to allow PCI and PCIE in the same location!!



In a half-baked kinda way you're right, if we ignore that there is no keep-out zone above the slot so the boards were all designed differently to ensure the area was empty. It does make sense with PCIE for this reason just as it did with AGP. They can't change card orientation until other things are changed to make way for that.

LIke many parts of a computer, these design decisions were made without any forethought, as to how much power some cards would eventually use in this case. Even so, in many situations it is splitting hairs, you can't just indefinitely increase heatsink size because of the weight increase, and any wise installer is going to make any video card a "2 slot solution" regardless of heatsink height, the video card should not have a PCI card adjacent to it even if the 'sink were short enough to wedge one in.

To this extent having the hotter components on the other side would be an improvement, but maybe you're also forgetting that for best cooling you don't want all the hottest parts jammed up against each other. Already there was northbridge, CPU and memory within a couple inches of each other, it's not such a good idea to see how close to these we can add a video card that is (supposedly) hot enough running it needs an especially large heatsink. SO then, we could move that PCI Express slot down a little further away, but it will have the same result of loss of a slot (or at least usage of it) one way or the other.

The only real problem with video card cooling is when manufacturers foolishly use either a loud squirrel cage type radial fan or a far too thin and high RPM axial fan. It creates excess noise unnecessarily and contributes to early failure. Otherwise what we have now works, besides the issue of having the 4X PCI Express slots taking away from # of PCI but barely any PCI Express cards in the market desirable enough to use besides the video cards.

What you're wanting isn't impossible, just unworkable on ATX. The whole layout will have to be shifted around. One board with enough room is not enough, they'd ALL have to have that much room besides the zone heat density issue I'd already mentioned.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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I've often thought about this very topic.
In some ways I wish the desktop case would make a comeback, it was far easier to work on and installing fans and cooling would be much easier.
Not to mention installing ram, cpus.