Why are there no comparisons between Apple G4/G5 vs AMD and Intel?

iamtrout

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2001
3,001
1
0
Some of you may know that Apple has released their Mac Mini with 1.42GHz G4, Radeon 9200 w/ 32MB DDR, and 256MB system RAM for around $500.

I fail to see the value in this.

1.42GHz? 9200 with only 32MB ram?

Now I know that G4's are optimized for video and photo work, but come on, 1.42GHz is nothing at this price range. PC makers are offering systems with at least 2GHz at around $500, and as efficient as the 1.42GHz G4 may be at rendering, it can't possibly overwhelm a 2GHz PC CPU, can it? (This is where the thread title comes from, because I don't actually know the answer.)

As far as I can tell the Mac Mini's only real advantage is size.

Other factors: It's pretty. It'll get noticed.

This isn't meant to be a rant, but it seems to me that the Mac Mini is relying on 90% fan loyalty and styling and only 10% performance and value in selling its products.
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
its stil more than enough to paly DVD/Mp3 and use internet/email which is what most if not all users will be doing with it

but in my eyes mac's are always over hyped over priced and under spec'd, but i could also so that about sony's viao pc's to (part from the hype bit)
 

RadiclDreamer

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2004
8,622
40
91
OMG, someone on anadtech thinks clockspeed is everything? You gotta realise that more mhz does NOT mean faster chip. A 1.4 mac is very comparable to a 2.0ghz+ intel
 

iamtrout

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2001
3,001
1
0
Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer
OMG, someone on anadtech thinks clockspeed is everything? You gotta realise that more mhz does NOT mean faster chip. A 1.4 mac is very comparable to a 2.0ghz+ intel

No, I'm saying that there will eventually come a certain point where a higher MHz CPU will be faster than a lower clocked, albeit MORE EFFICIENT, CPU.

Anyone got any proof that the 1.4G4 will outperform a 2.0 or 2.4GHz?
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
cause it's like jumping into a discussion between xbox and ps2 and asking, "why aren't you comparing a gameboy?" :D
 

iamtrout

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2001
3,001
1
0
So basically it's all generalization and no numbers at this point, and somehow people are pulling out specifics from these generalizations like a 1.4G4 can go head to head with a 2.4P4. I'm not trying to start a flame war... I just want to get some stats. If it can be proven that a 1.4G4 can outdo a 2.4P4, that's awesome! I have no brand loyalty. I go where the performance and the good designs are, with bang for buck a hefty part of it all.
 

zakee00

Golden Member
Dec 23, 2004
1,949
0
0
generally, apple isnt good for "bang for your buck", but if you already have a monitor/keyboard/mouse to plug into the mac mini, its a damn good deal. G4 is apples low end consumer processor, if you are looking for performance check out the G5's. THOSE are super-effecent, 2+GHz, and are offered in pairs (2 cpus). and there is no way in hell to compare a G4 with a P4/AMD. No way. I will tell you, that the 1.4GHz G4 is pretty fast, and this is coming from someone who is typing this on a 1.25GHz G4.
 

iamtrout

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2001
3,001
1
0
Do you mean that there's no generic benchmark that supports all three processor types?
 

Yossairian

Senior member
Dec 23, 2004
242
1
0
Trying to compare Mac's and PC's is very difficult. There were a couple of mags who did comparisons when the dual g5's came out that showed the high end pcs were still faster. Some would argue the benchmarks are not equal due to code optimizations or whatever, I dont really give a chit about benchies to begin with soI will move on. If you are into that sort of thing, then definately stick with the PC, macs will never touch them. The best thing to do I would say, if you are truely curious, is to sit down with a modern mac and try it out for yourself. I know that may be hard to do, but I was legitamately curious at one time too and that is what it took for me to understand what the price premium and "hype" was all about. Alot of what makes macs so cool, at least for me you cant read about in a magazine. Little intangable things, it sounds like marketing tripe I know but it is what it is.

Also many of the anti-mac responses you will see on threads like these come from people who have never used a mac, so take them with a grain of salt. Im sure you know about people who just need to feel good about what they purchased regardless, so putting down other hardware is the flavor of the day ( Ref any Intel vs AMD, Nvidia vs ATI ad nausium).

Sure there are rabid mac fanbois too, but keep in mind most of them have at least spent quite a bit of time using both platforms. I also know the ex mac users, or the " I used one at work or at school once and .. blah blah blah. I used to be that guy too, untill I sat down with OSX and an open mind but I digress.

Back to your question, I can try to shed some light on performance differrences between the two platforms and what I personally use my computers for. More "generalizations" I am afraid, but if you had any specific cross-platform "free or software I already have" benchmarks you would like to see with the hardware I have, I would be happy to provide them. I honestly dont know of any.

My "game" rig is a 3200 AMD Winchester 64 @ 2600MHZ, 1GB ram running at 260MHZ, 6800GT vid. This is my home computer, I use it to play games and run folding.
My "Work assigned" computer is a P4 2.4GHZ (533mhz I think) and 1gb Memory, I use this for office related apps, word, excel, lotus notes.
My Laptop is a Powerbook G4, 1.25 GHZ w/ 512 MB of ram and a ATI 9600 mob chip w/ 64 mb of ram. I use this for everything else, including the "Work Computer" tasks when I am on the road. I also play WoW on it when I am not at home ( plays very well too )

Basically, seat of the pants performance in regular computing, browsing, mp3 compression, all the "other" sht people do with their PC's I would say the Mac is faster than my P4. but slower than my AMD rig but they are all fairly close. In games, the AMD smokes the powerbook ( duh ). I have never gamed with the P4, but I am sure with a similar video card it would probibly do better as well. That being said, if I could only keep 1 of my computers, even disregarding resale value it would be my powerbook. I just use it more.

I know its not the "specs" you were after, but there it is. Also I would like to add, I did not pay for the apple, so I am not just trying to justify spending close to 3k on a laptop lol. Not trying to diss pc's either so I hope I didnt get any sand in anyones crack, I really like my other two boxes as well and they are not any "less stable" than the mac. Just trying to convey my experiance.

"As far as I can tell the Mac Mini's only real advantage is size. "

For you that might be true, they are not for everyone not going to argue there. For me, its biggest advantage, and why I would choose it over a $500 PC is it will run OSX fast enough. Again, for me that means more than finishing photoshop 3 seconds faster than a $500 PC, but to each is own.
 

iamtrout

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2001
3,001
1
0
THANK YOU.

I'm beginning to see the subtleties here. It really is like comparing apples to oranges, because Macs and PCs are used a lot for different purposes altogether, correct? (PCs for games and other blah blah blah and Macs for more "serious" things like work and more mundane things like browsing) And it's not all about the hardware but the ease of use/reliability of the supported software also.

Am I getting close?
 

iamtrout

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2001
3,001
1
0
BTW, the reason I brought up this topic is because my friend, who is a hardcore Apple fanboy (but has never owned or even used a Mac for extended periods) sent me an email about the Mac Mini with the subject being "be prepared to sh!t your pants."

I found no reason to warrant such... enthusiastic activities... for the Mac Mini.
 

Yossairian

Senior member
Dec 23, 2004
242
1
0
@ iamtrout

Yeah I would say that is pretty close assesment, in my opinion anyway. I still give the nod to the PC on CPU intensive operations, but mac people would argue a productivity increase that negates the couple of seconds processing advantage on the PC. Again you can find someone to argue any position really, to me I call draw on the day to day stuff that 90% of the people use their PC's for.

You know its funny, I always used to be a "PC Guy". I couldn't see the need for macs to even exist. My company does among other things, Network Integration and Security Analysis for Medical Device Records systems. Many centers use Macs for their fundus imaging equipment so we were ( grudgingly in most cases ) forced to pick up the platform and run with it. Now 8 out of 10 in my group use our work macs ( all G4 powerbooks ) as our personal computers lol.. But if you notice when I had to buy a computer with my own money it was a PC haha. Really though if I did not have my powerbook I would most likely grab a G4 Ibook, I think those are a really good deal as far as macs go.

Tech is moving so fast, both platforms are really maturing. The old stigma of PC's "crashing" and not being reliable enough is not really ( as ) valid anymore with driver signing and what not. And the old stigma of Mac's "Not having any software available" is slowly going away as well ( except games ) with the OS's move to a Unix core, and Virtual PC software. Macs still cost a fortune though, but this $499 imac again, seems like a step in the right direction to me. Sure $500 is still alot by PC standards, but for a mac that is unbelievably cheap ( based on actual cost of other macs not necessarily perceived value). I think competition does us all good. Cooler toys at better prices !
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
Originally posted by: iamtrout
THANK YOU.

I'm beginning to see the subtleties here. It really is like comparing apples to oranges, because Macs and PCs are used a lot for different purposes altogether, correct? (PCs for games and other blah blah blah and Macs for more "serious" things like work and more mundane things like browsing) And it's not all about the hardware but the ease of use/reliability of the supported software also.

Am I getting close?

ok, a serious answer this time ;)

imo much of the issue with macs comes down to several things; 2 of which tie into each other: 1) it's pretty much proprietary, 2) it's spendy, both for software and hardware, and 3) it's performance is nowhere near pc's for the price.

the first 2 go hand in hand. as it's proprietary, there aren't dozens of options from other companies for the same thing. this keeps selection low, and prices high, and applies to both hardware and software.

the last.. well, this is a bit of an old quote, and take it however you like (there's also been tests done where mac outperforms pc but argued the "tests" were heavily slanted in favor of the mac) but should give you an idea:

We ran our After Effects and Photoshop benchmarks on this machine, nine in all, and saw a speed improvement that was far beyond what we anticipated. Mac users will be disappointed to see that this new Dell machine, while priced $629 less than the Mac Dual G4 1.25 GHz machine, was nearly twice as fast on most of the nine benchmarks we ran. (Even though the Mac's dual G4 chips have been sped up to 1.25 GHz and offers faster DDR RAM, apparently this wasn?t enough to keep up with the newest and fastest from Dell and Intel.)

there's a huge performance disparity, even given the significantly lower price of the pc's.

as for "up sides", one thing that can be said for mac's "proprietary" design is that they are generally more space efficent and do have some interesting desktop designs. also, hardware support is much easier, and far more "plug and play", although pc's have been much better in recent years. much is stated the mac has better stability, and i attribute that mostly due to it's proprietary design - pc's can tend to have parts from a variety of vendors, and peripheral compatibility issues are certainly more likely with a pc, tho i think that OS X having a unix foundation plays a part as well.

many people claim that macOS is simpler/easier to use. while i think this was a good argument years ago, it's pretty much a tossup now. both interfaces are pretty inutitive and easy to navigate.

macs also excelled is graphics and video editing at one time, but that's changed as well. iirc not too long ago i read that adobe released it's latest video-editing software only on the pc. overall mac has some decent (tho arguably limited) amount of productivity software, but games are an entirely different matter. mac has a number of titles but it's nowhere near the amount avail. for pc's, and frankly what does get released for mac is often way after it's avail. for pc's.

there are certainly die hard mac fans, and i'm sure there are indeed some valid reasons as to why, but from my limited use of mac, i easily prefer the pc whether i'm running linux or windows...

hope that helps.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,931
13,014
136
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
a mac is clock for clock comparable to an amd64, perhaps a bit faster.

There's no way a G4 is, clock per clock, faster than a socket 939 Athlon 64. G5, maybe, but only on certain tasks. G4? No.
 

Yossairian

Senior member
Dec 23, 2004
242
1
0
Originally posted by: iamtrout
BTW, the reason I brought up this topic is because my friend, who is a hardcore Apple fanboy (but has never owned or even used a Mac for extended periods) sent me an email about the Mac Mini with the subject being "be prepared to sh!t your pants."

I found no reason to warrant such... enthusiastic activities... for the Mac Mini.

Aah one of ~those~ guys.

Reply to that email with this link *evli grin*

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/iProduct.gif
 

zakee00

Golden Member
Dec 23, 2004
1,949
0
0
yeah i think the g4 would be more comparable to the amd XP, and the g5 to the A64. i dont know what your sources are CaiNaM, but apple posts quite a different story: http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
if they were lying, wouldnt that be false-advertising?
there is no doubt that apple makes some damn amazing products, you just cant really compare performance from platform to platform becase a Mac really is a whole experence. i know it sounds cheesy and retarded, but its true. if you are intrested in just messin around with one, heres a list of the retail stores. i wouldnt waste my time at compusa, they blow:http://www.apple.com/retail/.
you WILL be impressed, i dont care who you are.

"I also play WoW on it when I am not at home ( plays very well too )" Thats VERY nice to know, i used the same laptop to participate in the Open Beta before i bought my new 1337 gaming machine. the performance sucked big time in the beta, but im sure they have optamized it MUCH more in the final verson. now i am sure i can play WoW on my desktop, and wirelessly on my laptop :D
peace,
nick
any ?'s, comments, or concernes, PM me. lol i prolly sound like an apple rep or somethin
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
IBM's design always tend to have a higer IPC, the G5's very quick, but to compare is like apples and oranges. Like saying whats better ? Itanium or Opteron ? the playing field isnt level. I dont know too much about MAC's but they cant be as bad as everyone makes out.

Same with game consoles, is the emotion engine faster then the 733 Mhz PIII in the xbox ? you cant get a straight answer. ( Well not one I can give you regarding the G5's Vs X86 chips)
 

Yossairian

Senior member
Dec 23, 2004
242
1
0
Originally posted by: zakee00
"I also play WoW on it when I am not at home ( plays very well too )" Thats VERY nice to know, i used the same laptop to participate in the Open Beta before i bought my new 1337 gaming machine. the performance sucked big time in the beta, but im sure they have optamized it MUCH more in the final verson. now i am sure i can play WoW on my desktop, and wirelessly on my laptop :D


I have seen your sig before, we almost have the same gear, except the 3200+ and PDP memory. You must have good taste ;)

WoW is not all that bad on the mac, I was surprised. Of course going from your game rig will be a major downgrade, but it is playable. My A64 was down wating on a waterblock when I finally found the game. Its been so long since I have bought a Blizzard game, I forgot they usually support both platforms with the same copy ( Bless them for that ). Anyway, loaded it up + had my guy up to level 6 before I got my A64 up and running.

Happy gaming,



 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
a G5 will get smoked by AMD64's, 3 FPUs vs 2, 3 IU's vs 2, on-board mem controller gives 1/4 latency etc.


Not even close
http://www.pcworld.com/news/ar...aid,112749,pg,8,00.asp

http://www.mediaworkstation.co...article.jsp?id=25633-1


You don't even want to see the G4 hurting..
Do yourself a favor and get a shuttle SFF A64 setup for less than $500 total, with a real HDD, A real DVD burner etc.

Shuttle XPC Barebone System for Socket 754 AMD Athlon 64 CPU, Model SK83G
Sound 6 chan, Firewire, video, Spdif etc etc etc -$199.00

NEC 16X Double Layer DVD±RW Drive, Black w/ Software, Model ND-3520A, $65.99

SAMSUNG 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model SP0802N, $57.00

pqi POWER Series 184-Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 $61.99

AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - $115

Total $498
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
The highest clock G5 is a water cooled 2.5Ghz ? is there any benchies with a 2.4 Ghz K8 & G5 2.5 Ghz ? Id like to work the IPC out for the G5.
 

Chesebert

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2001
1,013
15
81
If Mac is clock for clock faster than AMD than, Pentium 3/M is clock for clock faster than Mac.

**A64 has onchip mem controller, that helps ALOT in games and rendering, although it does not mean the chip is performing any faster, its just it has less noop to go through waiting for a cache miss in L2**

ok..correction: whichever platform hast he highest IPC is the fastest one, although that can be misleading too cuz you can have a program with bunch of branch perdiction and if one of the chip has a small history table with lame perdiction rate its gonna be bad for that particular loop instruction. Testing chip is too hard, you head will expload looking at gazillion output on waveforms and try to figuer out which instruction this is and where it is at...LOL. you will never know. All you can do is run some standard benchmark to see if you get better result, and that's how ppl design CPU, its design to run benchmark (different CPU target different benchmark ofcourse:)
 

Neptune3000

Senior member
Sep 15, 2004
278
0
0
I personally dont like MACs. Thier "legendary" performance for encoding and and stability is ancient and overrated. I assume this grew out of the fact that a few years ago Windows bonked badly and it was not dependable to do anything because it would CRASH! Today that is not the case..completely, but for some reason those paradimes of the MAC still exist. My first computer was a MAC..and I will never touch another MAC again. My brother has 2: a g4 system and one of those new g5 built into a 20inch monitor systems.

I've used them and i'm not impressed at all. I mean sure they're pretty...but MACs TO ME are like ditsy computers. The PC just offers alot more esp. for the enthausiast.


I also dont like IPOD.... :X oveerated