Why are the Jews so stubborn?

[Prodigy^]

ok i'm sorry GF

I've just got a bad experience with people trying to do this to me and it really bugs me be it ops on IRC or people on a forum it's never nice if people use a high status to lock out people who aren't as well-known and respected in that particular place.

glad to see you didn't mean to do so and the use of the "profoundly stupid" phrase was more of a joke because Russ used that same term

 

[DABANSHEE]

That crap that Jews have never had a homeland Russ, I never thought you'd be conned by some mindless zionist propaganda. A Polish Jew's homeland is Poland, a New York Jew's homeland is New York, a East End Jew's homeland is the East End, etc, etc, etc. By saying that an American Jew's homeland is Israel, are you saying that Jews cannot be loyal American citizens?

Besides seeing as its already been proven that the Palestinians are more closely related to the Hebrews of antiquity, if one really beleives in zionism, then Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians.

When you get down to it Zionism is a racist ideal as such Zionism is no different to apartheid or Nazism.

Besides why should the Israelis' be rewarded for being the most successful ethnic cleansers since the end of WWII.

So Zippy said that its all the Palestinians fault for not accepting the 50:50 split of their lands by the UN in 47. But what right had the UN to give 50% of their land to 20% of the population made up of virtual all first or second generation immigrants. How would Americans like it if the UN deceided to split the US in half & then give the best half to the 10% Latino population, just because they claim their ancestors were their first.

Yet the Zionist claim is even more tenuous because the Palistinians are directly descended from the Hellenised Jews who were not deported by the Romans (50% of Jews then were well 'n truely converted to Greco-Roman ways, they were not deported whereas the traditional Jews were deport in the first century AD after the Jewish Rebellions). Over hundreds of years they came to think of themselves as good Greek Orthadox Greeks. Then the Arabs invaded & they intermarried & over time became majority muslum - even when the crusaders masacred the 40000 infidels in Acre (because Saladin was late with the ransom gold) the majority of the infedels were in fact Greek Orthadox Christians. Even now some 15+% of Palestinians are Greek Orthadox. Actually some Palestinian refugees have land deeds issued by Saladin himself & even a couple have land deeds going back to the pre-Arab Byzantine Era. But the Israeli courts does not recognise them, as that would curtail their own claims.

Where as the Ashkenasi Jews of Europe have quite a bit of Indo-European blood & Turkic Blood (in the tenth Century a Khazak Emporer on the Volga river converted to Judism, so all his subjects also converted to Judism, so many Ashkenasi Jews from Eastern Europe are actually descended from these 10th century conversionists). While the Sepherdic Jews of North-Africa, Spain, Anatolla & the middle East are genetically indivisable from the general populations they are from - ie the Yemani Jews are genetically no different than Yemani Arabs. Which make the racist claims of Zionists laughable.

 

[mosdef]

mosdef: try and relax. instead of being offensive, you could have explained the situation to me in a normal way instead of acting like an ass. And no, I don't regret having started this thread

Why are you still posting, Prodigy^? You clearly have no knowledge on this subject, and all your statements are based on ignorance, prejudice, and preconceived notions - that's why you are the one who looks like an ass, not me.

I would have not been offensive if you hadn't attacked an entire group of people yourself, but you did. Instead of asking about the subject matter (as you clearly are not informed), you assumed your bigotry to be truth and thus I have no respect for what you have to say. If you wanted the situation explained to you in a
normal way, you could have simply asked.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

GF, Russ and dennil: give Impact55 a break what he meant was that he's tired of seeing Jews trying to make other people feel pity for them and be so nice to them because they've been through the holocaust. at least that's what I think he means, and although I don't think all jews do this, he's probably right somewhere, they do use the "holocaust excuse" sometimes, unrighteously.

Once again, I don't think you know what you are talking about. First of all, what exactly do you mean by a "holocast excuse"? In what case have you EVER heard of a Jew bring up the Holocaust as a leg up in any shape or form. The fact that the Jew's are reluctant to give up land has nothing to with either a Holocaust or an excuse. Israel want peace, but realize this is unattainable unless they relinquish the little land they have.

Now as a general criticism of your argument, I think you are being ridiculous for suggesting that the Jews are at fault for seeking sympathy and pity (which you have yet to prove). If we didn't feel pity for certain groups we wouldn't see such things as... the abolishment of slavery, affirmative action, woman's rights, welfare, etc. In fact, I'm sure if I knew anything about you, I could point out reasons why you might not even be around today if it wasn't for pity. And if you're questioning whether the Jews deserve pity, well besides being kicked around from country to country for nearly 2000 years and being segregated wherever they went, they lost 6 million of their people, or 2/3 of their population in Europe as a result of the Holocaust. Please defend yourself (I'm looking for a good laugh).

-mosdef

 

[Mill]

Dabanshee- What about the jewish interpretation of history?

The bible states that Palestine was promised to the jews. In their mind it is theirs, not the Palestinians. Does this make them wrong? I myself think it should be just like the jews say. For peace though... this will never work.

All I can say, is to just wait and see what happens in September. The proverbial sh!t is going to hit the fan.

BTW Prodigy^- I would be quite stubborn if I were jewish. Go read some of the 600-1000 page books about Israel and Palestine. It talks about Golda Meir, the seven days war...Anwar Sadat, Syria, Egypt, and Russia's involvement in all of this. I find it to be quite accurate in relation to what actually happened. Much of the book(s) were written in an unbiased perspective.

Dabanshee-I do like your insight into Zionism. I don't buy your idea that this is contrived propaganda. Maybe they are just zealous...

 

[BiB]

Lordy lordy, yet again religion causes strife and conflict.

 

[mosdef]

While Judiasm is a religion, it is widely regarded as an ethnic group. This conversation has nothing to do with religion anyway, it is about a great deal of ignorance on the parts of certain members of this forum. Stop generalizing the discussion so that it applies to your pointless comment and realize that many things cause strife and conflict and there is no reason to point this out, it is already accepted.

-mosdef

 

[Prodigy^]

mosdef if you'd act a bit mature, I might consider answering back

I have VERY little respect for people (as in groups) who take critism about them so personally. If a guy said here on the forums that "all danes are fat, sleazy, beer drinkers that all try to score chicks and drink and do nothing else" or some crap (ok this is partly true ) i would just laugh a bit and tell him the truth, instead of acting like a moron (like you are )

 

[nickdakick]

mosdef: You're one f@cking troll, c'mon get lost. :|

 

[BiB]

Something I often do on these forums is post something, appearing that I know the facts, when in fact I don't. I am one of the first to admit I am wrong when somebody points these out (well I try to), but if myself, or somebody else posts something and they really have no clue about it (this is hypotetical here), its a good idea to kindly inform them of the fact rather than putting them down for being ignorant, dumb, etc. How are people supposed to learn when your way of teaching is to offend and insult their lack of knowledge?

BiB

 

[mosdef]

nickdakick - Why must you hate on me? I'm simply supporting my own religion, race, and ethnic group against bigotry? I'm sure if someone insulted your group you wouldn't talk it lightly. And btw, I am not a troll. Just look at the first message posted in this thread. The whole basis of this thread was to incite argument.

Prodigy^ - I guess I have more respect for who I am and my people than you. I don't want bigots like you spreading lies about my people. And you just don't get it; call my people stubborn, greedy, stingy, whatever, but please, NEVER AGAIN say something as spiteful as this:

And don't give me the Holocaust story.....sure, it was tough for the Jews, but that doesn't give them the right to act like crybabies in this case.

It's as if you are spitting on 6 million graves.

-mosdef

 

[mosdef]

BiB - I guess I was just in a pissed off mood after dealing with Prodigy^. I see where you are coming from and I guess you're right, but the way I see it is that for some people it's more than "teaching" them new information, it's attempting to alter ideas that have been in place for years. Still, I will try to contain my emotions more next time, and possibly avoid being called a troll.

-mosdef

 

[BiB]

Well I also appreciate how mad things can make a person as well and remaining calm ain't always possible

 

[Prodigy^]

mosdef:

ok, sorry if I've offended your people. I must admit I wasn't totally clear on the issue, but you make mistakes in life and learn from them.

I just saw an episode of Little House on the Prairie, where a kid (Albert) got a place as an apprientice at a Jewish woodworker. The jewish guy said a lot of clever things about life, was very positive, and seemed like a very very decent human being. So, I wasn't trying to say that all jews are bad people.

BUT.....why must they keep up this insane slaughter in the middle east? it makes no sense for "God's own people" to murder others in a way to make people turn over some land to them. We live in a modern society where everyone should be able to live with eachother, across religion and race (which is at least the case in the most of Europe), so why MUST the jewish people have Israel back? (sorry if I'm wrong, you know, that holy country they want).

my mom said a clever thing about it: "Jerusalem means as much to me as a Christian, so why should the Jews get it all?". This is a very good point, why must you keep up this idea of you being God's [one and only] people? that's mostly where the stubborn-ness idea comes from, seen from my side.

 

[mosdef]

I definately agree with you about the bloodshed. It must end, that's all I have to say about that.

And Actually, Prodigy^, Jerusalem is a home to Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam. While Israel owns it, I don't really think it belongs to anyone more than anyone else in a religion sense. Each religion has its own holy sites, buildings, etc.

Hehe, I think we've toned down the intensity of this argument.

-mosdef

 

[Russ]

Prodigy^,

The word "excuse" implies an attempt to avoid taking responsibility. Looking at the Jewish people as a whole, I'd say that the opposite is true. They have taken extraordinary measures to be the masters of their own fate. They have succeeded against all odds, all over the world. This does not sound like a people who make "excuses". This sounds like a people who just do it.

Too bad about 80% of them here (in the US) are Liberals.

Russ, NCNE

 

[CyberSax]

Hrrmmm... The tone of your message seems like you have something against Jewish people in general, rather than a genuine interest in discussing the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict.

 

[uncouth]

We're not stubborn! And I rufuse to change my oppinion!

 

[uncouth]

Impact55,

You bring up a good point about the Armenians.
Hitler brought up this same issue : "And now, who remembers the Armenians?" (or something similar)
This relates to another genocidical action pre-WW2 that where somewhere in the million ballpark of Armenians were murdered.

Hitler and Impact55 are right. No one remembers the Armenians. The Jews, however, are very recognized. Why is this?

Similar #'s dead. Similar motive. Similar Reasoning. Yet who does remember the Armenians?

 

[mosdef]

Impact55 likes Nelly, that discredits all of his opinions and arguments. ;P j/k

-mosdef

 

[BiB]

Armenians? Got me...

But I think perhaps as many as 10 million jews were killed? 10 times as many if you say 1 million Armenians. Of course Stalin was responsible for even more deaths than Hitler - and that results in way less publicity.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Actually the figure is about 5.2 million Jews were killed in the holacaust.

Proportionally the Gypsies suffered even worse, but I don't see them driving the residents out of a part of India .(originally they came from a part of India) & claiming that patch as their own homeland, while sucking up to the US & UN about being victims of the holacaust.

Gez, support by the US to Israel has hurt US foreign policy more than any other issue. If the US had never supported Israel most of the Arab states would not have turn to the Soviets for support & there would never have been the Arab oil crisis in 1973. The US has gained nothing from its support of Israel, except the loss of billions every year (even now Israel receives still billions in aid from the US every year to prop up its economy) & becoming a target of terrorism in the process (seeing the US is a democracy then its own citizens are responsable for its govts action, so if US govt money paid for the bullits that killed your relatives & drove you off land that your family has owned for generations, you then have every right to take revenge by killing Americans in terrorist attacks).

The Saudi King put it succinctly when he said it makes no sense to give the Jews Palestine because of the way they suffered during the holocaust, because the Palestinians played no part of the holocaust (actually many fought with the allies in North Africa in the British Army as Palestine was a British mandate then), so the King suggested that seeing it was the Nazis that committed the holocaust then it would have been more logical if they parceled off a little bit of Germany & gave that to the Jews & renamed it 'New Israel'.

But no the US (& Russ?) let itself be conned by such Zionist propaganda as "A land with out any people, for a people without any land", as if there was something stopping American Jews from letting America be there homeland, & as if the Palistinians had never existed.

Actually Reitz the idea of Jerusalem becoming an international city under the stewardship of the UN (like Danzig/Gdansk & Triest were international cities administed by the 'League of Nations between WWI & WWII, & Triest was an internationally administed city by the UN from the end of WWII till about 1957) is nothing new, it was a part of the UN partition plan of 1947, because if fell well within the boundaries of the Palestinian division (in that partition plan the Palestinian regions of Gaza, the West Bank & Northern Galilee actually touched each other, but because the Pestinians were totally unprepared for war the Israeli were able to take much of their lands in 48 & drove a million Palestinians into exile).

Really it is rather tragic the way the Palestinians have become victims of the holocaust by default.

 

[steelthorn]

The Jews are God's chosen people. Those who curse the Jews shall be cursed and those who bless the Jews shall be blessed. Personally I would find it nice if the palestinians just packed their bags and moved out of Israel all together. The land was given to the Jews by God!

 

[Harvey]

steelthorn -- <Personally I would find it nice if the palestinians just packed their bags and moved out of Israel all together. The land was given to the Jews by God!>>

Sure!!! And who do you think lived there for centuries before Moses ever climbed up on that mountain to look out over that particular parcel? Duh... Could it be Palestinians?

And exactly whose god gave that land exclusively to the Jews? Bet it wasn't any diety acknowledged by those Palestinians.

It's moronic statements like yours that continue to convince me that all religions are nothing but political power structures that survive because of enforced ignorance and dominated those wielding fear of some undefined, unseen, all powerful diety figure.

Get real! They are all human beings, sharing the same space and the same human dreams. If the Isrealis and the Palestinians can't learn to live together, they will certainly all die together. If they're too stupid to figure that out, you can write it off to the wrath of a vengeful god of your own imagination.

Personally, I think it would simply be tragically sad.

 

[BoberFett]

<< The land was given to the Jews by God! >>

Then why did they leave?

Finders keepers, losers weepers.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Yes, I agree Harvey. I personally think what should have occured is that a secular modern state should have been instituted there back in the late 40s where anyone of any religion who lived were equal &amp; had their property &amp; rights respected. But I spose that would have curtailed the zionist ideal of bringing the worlds Jews to the hollyland.

Hence I think the Germans should have been made to pay for the holocaust by having a bit of Germany parceled off &amp; given to the Jews as 'New Israel' (Gez they parceled off a bit of Germany &amp; gave it to Poland, to make up for the part of Poland that became a part of Soviet Belorussia after the war). Israel is only a small peice of land, they could have given then that little salient just north of Bohemia &amp; re-housed the Germans there in the rest of Germany using Marshal plan money (The Germans were already refugees as their cities were destroyed by RAF Bomber Command) Even then it would have been cheaper on the US than what creating a new Western nation in the Middle East. So then the Jews (who chose to live there) could re-gain the security they lost during the holocaust by having their own homeland. Without introducing a new holocaust on the Palestinians. Besides German land is a lot more productive (it rains more) &amp; would have been closer to all the action anyway therefore Israelis' today may have then been infinitly better off too.

Sure!!! And who do you think lived there for centuries before Moses ever climbed up on that mountain to look out over that particular parcel? Duh... Could it be Palestinians?


Oh, BTW Harvey, I think they were Cannites that were living there before the Jews turned up. Actually many scholars think the Cannites, the Phonecians, the Jews, the Amonites , the Samaritans, the Arabs, etc are all the same people with basically the same language, just different religions (well over the last 2000 years the Hebrew language &amp; the Arab language may have evolved differently, but they started out the same). Actually the Samaritans (of New Testament fame) still exist today &amp; many live under the shadow of MT Nablus in the West Bank. Really the only people in that region region (the Levantine of antiquity) that were not Semmites were the Philistines, who were Indo-Europeans &amp; maybe of Greek origin.