Why are RISC CPUs more common in game consoles?

Anarchist420

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The NeoGeo, Genesis, and Xbox used CISC processors, but they were exceptions to the rule.

Do RISC processors have an absolute advantage in consoles or just a cost effectiveness advantage in consoles?

I know that Genesis games (at least sports games) had better AI than Super NES games, but I heard that the Super NES CPU was better, in absolute terms, for a game console. However, I don't understand why SNK used an MC68k in the NeoGeo if it didn't offer a performance advantage.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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Cheaper and faster.

Btw, current X86 CPUs are RISC inside with a CISC translation layer. So the Xbox was actually RISC too.

Pentium 1 was the last Intel CISC CPU if I recall right. Pentium Pro was RISC inside with the CISC layer.
 

Cerb

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The NeoGeo, Genesis, and Xbox used CISC processors, but they were exceptions to the rule.

Do RISC processors have an absolute advantage in consoles or just a cost effectiveness advantage in consoles?
Licensing and customization.

It's not RISC v. CISC. It's just that nobody bothers making a 'pure' CISC, these days, outside of uCs, since a dense RISC will be about as good, and simpler, so load-store is all anyone sane bothers with.

MS had to buy CPUs from Intel for the Xbox. They licensed the design, and paid for R&D help, for the Xbox360 CPU. They then had it made for themselves. It was made to their needs, based on their requirements, and they had control of hardware costs. Those are the real advantages. Technical merits matter, but are secondary compared to having that level of control.

Now, in the past, certain RISC CPUs could offer much more performance for the money and power than x86, especially if one assumed that programmers would be doing near-metal optimizations, which would be the case for consoles. Even buying COTS chips, x86 would not look so good. That started becoming secondary as the 90s ended, though, as everyone basically got to have an even playing field, though x86's vector processing support is still lacking (Haswell will be making a quantum leap for x86, in that regard).
 
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lamedude

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My guess is because anyone can license ARM and MIPS and make a CPU that fits their needs. To get that freedom on CISC you'd be stuck using something old like 6502 or Z80.
 

Ferzerp

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My guess is because anyone can license ARM and MIPS and make a CPU that fits their needs. To get that freedom on CISC you'd be stuck using something old like 6502 or Z80.


You think arm or mips are present anywhere except in the handheld arena?


The big 3 are all running IBM Power (or Power derived: cell is Power and a bunch of weak add on cores) designs this current generation.
 

Joseph F

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You think arm or mips are present anywhere except in the handheld arena?


The big 3 are all running IBM Power (or Power derived: cell is Power and a bunch of weak add on cores) designs this current generation.

MIPS used to be the usual console CPU architecture. The PS1, PS2, N64 and most recently, the PSP featured a MIPS CPU as their main processor.
 

coffey

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Last time I checked, Ipods qualified as handheld devices. :p

Yeah, that one slipped in.

<cough> the thread is about game consoles <cough>

<cough> <cough> You are right, small thread derail.

#topic
I think Cerb hit the nail on the head.

Licensing and customization.

MS had to buy CPUs from Intel for the Xbox. They licensed the design, and paid for R&D help, for the Xbox360 CPU. They then had it made for themselves. It was made to their needs, based on their requirements, and they had control of hardware costs. Those are the real advantages. Technical merits matter, but are secondary compared to having that level of control.

+ it is harder for consumers to grasp the actual performance level, when the console does not use a standard x86 CPU.
 

Ferzerp

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I remember reading that the use of x86 for the original xbox was to allow a much shorter time to market than any other option would allow for.

Though, as with many things, the veracity is suspect.
 
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Anarchist420

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Another question... was the MC68K in the Genesis really slower than the SNES CPU for a console? The Super NES as a system was faster, no doubt, but then it had more RAM and faster graphics co-processing.

I would guess given the same amount of RAM and the same graphics processor, the CPU in the Genesis would be better for a game console (because Genesis sports games had better AI, more Super NES games had slowdown, the Neo Geo used an MC68K, and the Genesis CPU was clocked twice as fast as the SNES CPU even if it could get less done per clock cycle), but I don't know for sure so that's why I decided to ask.

I know that the Genesis CPU was better for general purpose, but what's fastest for GP may not be fastest for a game console.
 

nismotigerwvu

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Another question... was the MC68K in the Genesis really slower than the SNES CPU for a console? The Super NES as a system was faster, no doubt, but then it had more RAM and faster graphics co-processing.

I would guess given the same amount of RAM and the same graphics processor, the CPU in the Genesis would be better for a game console (because Genesis sports games had better AI, more Super NES games had slowdown, the Neo Geo used an MC68K, and the Genesis CPU was clocked twice as fast as the SNES CPU even if it could get less done per clock cycle), but I don't know for sure so that's why I decided to ask.

I know that the Genesis CPU was better for general purpose, but what's fastest for GP may not be fastest for a game console.

No, the SNES has more powerful graphics and sound hardware, but a very weak CPU. The plan was to pass this cost on to the developers with on cart DSPs (superFX, DSP-x, SA1...ect). While Sega did use enhancement chips on a small number of games on the Genesis ( I really can only think of the SVP on Virtua Racing, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear about others ) the 68k was much faster.
 

Fox5

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Cheaper and faster.

Btw, current X86 CPUs are RISC inside with a CISC translation layer. So the Xbox was actually RISC too.

Pentium 1 was the last Intel CISC CPU if I recall right. Pentium Pro was RISC inside with the CISC layer.

RISC versus CISC is a silly argument. The design of cpus is driven by costs and effectiveness, and instruction sets are made more complicated (CISC like) as needed, as evidenced by ARM's 4 different versions of every instruction, and the instruction sets AMD and Intel are always adding to x86.
Small hardware design houses prefer RISC, because it moves the burden to software and reduces hardware design and production costs. The primary advantage of RISC is high clock speeds, which is the most helpful for very simple operations (boolean operations for instance) which can be done in 1 clock cycle in very simple hardware, but in reality a low end CISC cpu with a dedicated multiply hardware could perform a RISC cpu of >3x its clock speed in that specific task. Obviously, a RISC cpu can add in more and more dedicated hardware, but it becomes less RISC like with every addition in hardware.

But even then, current cpus are not truly CISC or RISC. The primary difference between the 'CISC' and 'RISC' cpus is whether or not it's a load-store architecture. Basically all RISC cpus operate directly on registers, and have to perform separate operations to explicitly move data to or from memory. This makes it easier to make compile time and just in time optimizations, because the state of the registers are known, while the state of memory is not, you can optimize code without worrying about the cost of hitting memory and you know exactly how long instructions will take to finish executing, allowing for better scheduling.
A traditional CISC architecture can operate directly on data on the stack. The benefit of this is smaller code size (ie, better use of memory and cache) because you can have implicit arguments to functions and thus smaller instructions. X86 was designed around a world where memory and cache were very expensive, which is why it has variable length instruction decoding. ARM also implemented variable instruction lengths for the same reason, but it has to explicitly switch modes to do so and can't interleave code of different lengths. I hear the vast majority of mobile ARM code these days is done using its 16 bit (or is it 8 bit?) THUMB mode though, since simple operations don't need a full 32-bits, and ARM achieves code density almost on par with x86 because of this. This is very important on mobile platforms, where caches and memory bandwidth are both small.

Oh, and consoles go 'RISC' because almost all cpu designs these days are risc, and they are willing to license their designs for far cheaper than intel would be. Most cpu designs are RISC, because it's harder to design a high performance CISC cpu and the associated compilers. It's practical a miracle that Intel has Atom performing as well as it does, given that it's an in-order CISC cpu.

I remember reading that the use of x86 for the original xbox was to allow a much shorter time to market than any other option would allow for.

This is probably true, the xbox went from announcement to release in like under a year, and it used mostly off the shelf components. Plus, it was a WinNT kernel and microsoft's development tools, which were all x86 focused at the time, MS didn't really have another option.
Although the Intel cpu (something between a Celeron and a then current gen Pentium 3, I believe it was actually the mobile version of the Pentium 3) was a last minute switch, originally the xbox was going to use an AMD Duron cpu (roughly equal in performance to a Pentium 3 per mhz, but it was going to be clocked a bit higher). At the same time, AMD had taken a bunch of marketshare from Intel due to Compaq going heavy on AMD cpus, so Intel was willing to dump their excess on Microsoft at incredibly low cost to get rid of the old supply and also to keep AMD out of the console.
 

pantsaregood

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The talk of SNES vs. Genesis still makes me wonder why the Genesis was so much better at handling polygons than the SNES. There were several Genesis games that made use of real 3D without any kind of add on chip like Virtua Racing used.
 

Magic Carpet

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The talk of SNES vs. Genesis still makes me wonder why the Genesis was so much better at handling polygons than the SNES. There were several Genesis games that made use of real 3D without any kind of add on chip like Virtua Racing used.
Since I owned SNES... I can say, there were as many games vastly superior on that platform. Donkey Kong Country, for instance.
 

pantsaregood

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Donkey Kong Country was pre-rendered. I'm not making a comparison between SNES and Genesis, just curious as to why the Genesis was able to push 3D better.

Take a look at this, for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1DFK0hw_s0

The game may be awful, but that's impressive for a Genesis or SNES. The Genesis is actually managing a smooth framerate, too.

Also, this is running smoother than StarFox did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ71NMZ_zZI
 

Ancalagon44

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Feb 17, 2010
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I wonder if it would be possible to produce an ARM chip suitable for use in a gaming console?

I mean, the new PSP uses an ARM CPU. ARM CPUs are already hitting 2.0Ghz clock speeds with 4 cores.

I wonder whether it would be worth it for someone to spend say 2-3 years developing a higher clocked, higher powered ARM core, compared to say a PowerPC or x86 core? Would there be any cost savings? I mean perhaps PowerPC licensing costs are greater than that of ARM.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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I wonder if it would be possible to produce an ARM chip suitable for use in a gaming console?

I mean, the new PSP uses an ARM CPU. ARM CPUs are already hitting 2.0Ghz clock speeds with 4 cores.

I wonder whether it would be worth it for someone to spend say 2-3 years developing a higher clocked, higher powered ARM core, compared to say a PowerPC or x86 core? Would there be any cost savings? I mean perhaps PowerPC licensing costs are greater than that of ARM.

They are too slow. Just look at the Medfield Atom review with a new smartphone. CPU wise ARM is pathetic.
 

Ancalagon44

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Feb 17, 2010
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They are too slow NOW. My question was, would it be worth someone spending 2-3 years developing a high performance version of an ARM architecture CPU?
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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They are too slow NOW. My question was, would it be worth someone spending 2-3 years developing a high performance version of an ARM architecture CPU?

Its not really possible as far as I see it. The design is not there, or the R&D. ARM works very well as a design with low power. But even those 3.2Ghz record demo chips from TSMC is utterly slow. Not to mention a real powerhog.

ARM might get 64bit support in 2-3 years. We already see smartphones with 2GB. So its not a moment too soon.

But for ARM to go anywhere else. I dont think so. ARM is way too overhyped. And hypes always fails to deliver.

As soon as the power envelope scales up, Atoms and Bobcat chips just gets better. Its really just a beatdown.

Consoles will stay on PowerPC tho, since you cant license a x86 design. Also one of the major flaws of xbox1 for Microsoft. And cost savings vs ARM and PowerPC is minimal I guess. Not to mention PowerPC would be far far faster and proven.
 

nenforcer

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I wonder if it would be possible to produce an ARM chip suitable for use in a gaming console?

It's already been done. The Nintendo Gameboy Advance in 2001, the Nokia Ngage in late 2003 and the Tiger Gizmondo in 2005 were the first attempts.

Older ARM chips were highly desired since they could run in 16-bit THUMB mode for much greater code compactness in those early portables where the batteries weren't nearly as efficient as they are today.

Now pretty much the entire Apple iOS and Android marketplace is ARM powered.

In fact, MIPS is not in a console for the first time since the 1996 release of the Nintendo 64.
 
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lamedude

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That design our own CPU didn't work out so well for Sony this gen. Spending hundreds of millions on R&D isn't likely when MS/Sony are supposedly trying to avoid 500 and 99 US dollars this gen.
 

sm625

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The talk of SNES vs. Genesis still makes me wonder why the Genesis was so much better at handling polygons than the SNES. There were several Genesis games that made use of real 3D without any kind of add on chip like Virtua Racing used.


Probably because they had a smaller footprint. Less resolution, less colors. I played a lot of Gaiares for sega, and also R-Type and Darius for SNES. I wont claim that any one was more fun than the other, but I will say that without a doubt the graphics and sound were far far better on the SNES. It wasnt just the larger color pallette either.

Darius was programmed correctly, so it had no problems throwing around loads of polygons. And this was a first generation SNES game. Other developers clearly did not know what they were doing and thus their games had major slowdown. It is no different than flash games of today that fully load two cores and still slow down. Bad programming is just bad programming. Makes no sense to blame it on the hardware. And sometimes, programmers just try to do too much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNP15lD43TE