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Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?

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Originally posted by: Spencer278

How does that plan fix the up coming SS short fall.
Promised vs. Payable Benefits
  • Opponents of individual accounts frequently
    suggest that the creation of such accounts would
    result in cuts in the promised level of Social
    Security benefits. Those critics are confusing
    changes necessary to restore the system to balance
    with changes resulting from individual
    accounts. As noted above, Social Security faces
    unfunded liabilities of nearly $26 trillion. Quite
    simply, unless there is a substantial increase in
    taxes, the program cannot pay the promised
    level of benefits.

    That is not merely a matter of conjecture; it is a
    matter of law. The Social Security Administration
    is legally authorized to issue benefit checks only
    as long as there are sufficient funds available in
    the Social Security Trust Fund to pay those benefits.
    Once those funds are exhausted, in 2042 by
    current estimates, Social Security benefits will
    automatically be reduced to a level payable with
    existing tax revenues, approximately 73 percent
    of the current benefit levels.15

    This, then, is the proper baseline to use when
    discussing Social Security reform. Social
    Security must be restored to a sustainable level
    regardless of whether individual accounts are
    created.

    As the Congressional Budget Office puts it:

    • A number of recent proposals to reform
      Social Security call for changes in the
      program?s benefits. The effects of those
      proposals are frequently illustrated by
      comparing the new benefits to those
      expected to arise under the policies put in
      place by current law?showing whether
      they would be higher or lower and by
      how much. However, because of scheduled
      changes in benefit rules, a growing
      economy, and improvements in life
      expectancy, the benefits prescribed under
      current law do not represent a stable baseline.
      Their value will vary significantly
      across future age cohorts. Thus, focusing
      on differences from current law will not
      fully portray the effects of proposed benefit
      changes.16

    It is wrong, therefore, to attribute to individual
    accounts benefit cuts that would be needed
    to bring the system into balance irrespective of
    whether individual accounts are created.

    It is clear, in fact, that individual accounts by
    themselves do not cause any reduction in total
    retirement benefits (defined as the combination
    of account accumulations and traditional Social
    Security benefits). The best illustration of this
    concept is the first of three plans proposed by
    the President?s Commission to Strengthen
    Social Security. That plan would create individual
    accounts (2 percent of payroll is used for
    illustrative purposes) but make no other changes
    to bring Social Security into solvency. The
    result is that Social Security remains insolvent
    (although the plan does improve financing by 8
    percent), but the combined benefit received by
    workers is higher than benefits currently promised
    by Social Security.17

    Because one goal of this reform plan is to
    bring the Social Security system into balance
    and eliminate the system?s unfunded liabilities,
    changes are made to bring the system?s
    finances into balance in a <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.cato.org/pubs/ssps/ssp32.pdf">sustainable PAYGO
    system</a>. Those changes are separate from the
    creation of individual accounts.

    Therefore, in comparing benefit levels,
    payable benefits is the appropriate baseline.
 
"Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?"



If any party were to reform SS, successfully, they would be guaranteed a huge block of votes for some years to come. If a high quality reform plan comes forward, it will garner a huge opposition from the opposing party. I intend to put my support behind the plan that has the most (political) opposition, regardless of the Author.
 
Originally posted by: BBond
Not really. A pay as you go system that lets the top wage earners off the hook is doomed.
it's doomed faster than one that doesn't, but both are still doomed. it's simple math.
 
Social Security, instituted in response to a changing American population and an economic depression, is a system wherein workers provide for their future well-being through taxes paid on employment income. As instituted, the benefits paid to current recipients are provided from the payroll taxes of current workers, who will be supported by future workers, and so forth. A current problem with Social Security lies in the markedly uneven population growth of the last half-century. In 1960, there were five workers paying taxes for every Social Security beneficiary. In 2005, there are three, and the trend will continue as more Baby Boomers retire. Unless the system is reformed it will begin running a deficit of payments in 2018 and cuts in benefits will be necessary around 2043.

To mitigate this problem of an account deficit, President Bush proposes allowing workers under the age of 55 to divert a certain portion of their Social Security withholding into private retirement accounts. These private accounts would potentially earn greater returns in the stock market than they would when managed by the Social Security trust, thus potentially easing the Social Security dilemma. Bush?s plan is well-intentioned, but there are two problems with his approach that will adversely affect both low-income and wealthier taxpayers. First, Social Security was never meant to serve as a retirement package for most Americans, but as a supplement to provide the bare minimum of services necessary for survival. The protection it provides to low-income taxpayers is too minimal to be subject to risk and market volatility, which can drastically erode account values in mere moments. Even using conservative investment strategies, as the President proposes, does not eliminate this exposure to risk. Second, Congress discriminates against wealthier taxpayers by limiting contributions to tax shelters such as Individual Retirement Accounts (IRAs) from which wealthier taxpayers typically receive more benefit than lower-income taxpayers because wealthier taxpayers can afford to contribute more. To address these issues, I favor a two-pronged solution that provides assurance of benefits for those that most need the protection and the opportunity for wealthier taxpayers to provide additional funds for their retirement.

First, current beneficiaries and those 55 years old and older must be exempt from cuts in benefits and changes in the operation of the Social Security program. In addition, the benefits promised workers younger than age 55 should begin progressive indexing as proposed by Robert Pozen and Utah Senator Robert Bennett. As described, workers with average annual lifetime wages of $25,000 would receive an annual increase in benefits that is indexed to the annual general increase in wages. Workers with average annual lifetime wages of greater than $25,000 will receive benefits indexed to a decreasing ratio of wage to price increases. This strategy maxes out at $113,000 annual income, where benefits will be indexed to the annual increase in the Consumer Price Index. This will eliminate the majority of the burden on the Social Security system while retaining full benefits for lower-income individuals and minimizing the losses to higher-income individuals. This change is not ideal, but it best addresses the solvency issues surrounding Social Security.

Second, the current contribution limits on IRAs should be increased by $1,000 in the current year, and then held to the currently scheduled increases. Over time, this would allow relatively high-income workers to fund their retirement accounts to a level that compensates for progressive indexing. With an additional $1,000 annual contribution to an S&P 500 index fund, growing tax free over 40 years at an annualized rate of 10.96% (annualized long-term return), prudent investors would have an additional $575,460 in their IRAs upon reaching retirement age. * (The $1,000 figure was a starting point... I would gladly increase it much more, as it would give higher-income people much more equity in saving for their retirements)

My approach guarantees full benefits for those currently dependent on the Social Security system and those too close to retirement to alter their retirement plans appropriately, and allows for a solid level of support for those who lack the lifetime income to build nest eggs or take advantage of other retirement vehicles. In addition, it provides a minimum level of support for the relatively wealthy and allows them additional opportunities to amply provide for their retirement. This plan provides systemic solvency, shifts part of the burden of support back to those who can afford the risk, and ensures that no contributor is left behind.

<--- Not the ideal solution... but it's something. I also believe that the retirement age needs to be raised. It'll suck for my generation, but I'm already planning on working until I'm at least 70.
 
Originally posted by: Ozoned
"Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?"



If any party were to reform SS, successfully, they would be guaranteed a huge block of votes for some years to come. If a high quality reform plan comes forward, it will garner a huge opposition from the opposing party. I intend to put my support behind the plan that has the most (political) opposition, regardless of the Author.

So if someon proposes a plan to kill all seniors, you'll support it because it gets the most political opposition? 😉
 
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Ozoned
"Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?"



If any party were to reform SS, successfully, they would be guaranteed a huge block of votes for some years to come. If a high quality reform plan comes forward, it will garner a huge opposition from the opposing party. I intend to put my support behind the plan that has the most (political) opposition, regardless of the Author.

So if someon proposes a plan to kill all seniors, you'll support it because it gets the most political opposition? 😉

personally, I'd support it because it's a damn good idea 😛
 
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Ozoned
"Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?"



If any party were to reform SS, successfully, they would be guaranteed a huge block of votes for some years to come. If a high quality reform plan comes forward, it will garner a huge opposition from the opposing party. I intend to put my support behind the plan that has the most (political) opposition, regardless of the Author.

So if someon proposes a plan to kill all seniors, you'll support it because it gets the most political opposition? 😉

personally, I'd support it because it's a damn good idea 😛

Carousel

 
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I just know if Clinton were saying the same as Bush right now, the Dems would be on their feet!

What is so wrong will allowing me to invest in my own retirement account? It's BS I have to put $15K a year into the system and won't get sheit out of it!

Boo hoo. How about my $15k going to Iraq? Since when do we pick where our money goes? I guess keeping old people out of povetty isn't as as patriotic as invading a Arab country that we will be back at war with in ten years.

You want a market account, go make one. Backing a plan to dismatle a program and send it $2 trillion in the hole just to back your man isn't too bright, but hey.
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: BBond

Eliminate the income cap on Social Security taxes. Problem solved.
not really. a pay as you go system is doomed as long as the interest rate paid out is lower than the rate of workforce growth. the rate of workforce growth is constrained by population growth. and the US population isn't getting bigger at a rate that would even beat inflation.

a fully funded plan doesn't have this problem, however. a fully funded plan would be like taking money and putting it into your savings account. and everyone knows the magic of compound interest.


You forgot about productivity. The fact is, Social Security the way it is, or with privatized accounts, is basically going to depend on how the economy performs. Peopple who think they are going to beat the odds by investing their own money, are kidding themselves.

What it's really about is younfg people want ipods and Hondas, that's what they want the money for. Everybody was young once, don't young people realize that old people know what motivates young people ? They were there.

But the opposite is not true. young people don't realize how short life is, how quickly they might need the benefits that Social Security provides for them, young people just won't save for the future if they don't have too. (I know that's not true of every young perosn, but it's true of a lot of them, hell it's true of a lot of middle class and old people. And somebody will pay to take care of these people if there isn't Social Security, it will just be done in a vastly more inefficient and expensive way. Unless you're prepared to kill off the poor, the sick, and the old, and that costs money too.)
 
Originally posted by: Tom

You forgot about productivity. The fact is, Social Security the way it is, or with privatized accounts, is basically going to depend on how the economy performs. Peopple who think they are going to beat the odds by investing their own money, are kidding themselves.

well yes, if the economy completely tanks just about any plan is doomed to failure. but, even if the economy does well a pay as you go plan is still doomed to failure.

But the opposite is not true. young people don't realize how short life is, how quickly they might need the benefits that Social Security provides for them, young people just won't save for the future if they don't have too.
which is exactly why we should switch to a fully funded plan. a pay as you go system is not saving for the future by any stretch of the imagination, it is a wealth transfer from the poorer elements of society to the wealthier ones.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I just know if Clinton were saying the same as Bush right now, the Dems would be on their feet!

What is so wrong will allowing me to invest in my own retirement account? It's BS I have to put $15K a year into the system and won't get sheit out of it!

Topic Title: Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?

Not true. Bush is putting in a system similar to a Lottery winner that doesn't get the option to cash out, it is annuity only. It's Bullsh1t and another tactic for the Rich only.


Funny I dunno if I have ever seen where I can cash out my SS without being disabled and then it isn't a lump sum anyhow??? WTF?

I like Engineers ideas even though he is a liberal 🙂 Digitalism has some points too.

Man there are a bunch of crummy posts in here though man I thought I was the dummy here! oh gosh!
 
I find it interesting that Bush supporters assumed he would be able to steamroller his ideas right into law but the exact opposite has occured. The supposedly toothless Democrats have held the majority party's feet to the fire on this and other issues. Nice work Dems! The idea to roll back social programs is going to die and that is that.
 
Originally posted by: Tom
... somebody will pay to take care of these people if there isn't Social Security, it will just be done in a vastly more inefficient and expensive way. Unless you're prepared to kill off the poor, the sick, and the old, and that costs money too.)

A neocon's wet dream! Hell, I bet a few P&N'ers have dreams like that serveral times a week ("The Rich America First" plan)

 
Roll back the ridiculous tax cuts for the rich a slight bit and even spread it out of a couple of decades and place it in the trust fund. Bam, problem solved.
 
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Roll back the ridiculous tax cuts for the rich a slight bit and even spread it out of a couple of decades and place it in the trust fund. Bam, problem solved.

ANd Boom no more small business investment loss of jobs and business folding... even bigger problems!

this thread is getting worse not coming back just a bunch of coolaid drinkers spiting out talking points out of their Arse.
 
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Roll back the ridiculous tax cuts for the rich a slight bit and even spread it out of a couple of decades and place it in the trust fund. Bam, problem solved.

ANd Boom no more small business investment loss of jobs and business folding... even bigger problems!

this thread is getting worse not coming back just a bunch of coolaid drinkers spiting out talking points out of their Arse.

And BOOM, where are the jobs now? I'm still waiting for this voodoo-trickle-down bullsh*t to kick in.

I can guaran-damn-tee you that in six months when the bankruptcy bill kicks in, you're going to see a lot of small business startups decrease DRAMATICALLY and guess what, that means less jobs created.

All the folks I know that own a small business got an average of $300 per year in tax break. That's it. That hires a person for less than a week. Nice job.

Edit: The point in all this is that other financial decisions created this "mess".
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Riprorin
President Bill Clinton made fixing the nation's retirement program a top priority of his second term.

At a forum in 1998 he said "It would be unconscionable if we failed to act."

He warned that it is better to "fix the roof when the sun is shining," and urged finding ways to allow poorer workers to build wealth so they could "own a share of our nation's prosperity."

One propsal from a Clinto appointed bipartisan commission was to allow workers to divert 5% of their payroll taxes to personal accounts.

I believe that it's 4% in Bush's plan.
Yeah but under Clinton we had a surplus. Under the Dub our deficit is growing at unprecedented rates. Who in their right mind would trust the Dub and his Spend Spend Republican Congress to fix SS?


So what you are saying is you support SS reform as the wind blows? If Clinton got his reforms through would you want them taken away in 2001??
 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
There's really only one answer to SS solvency down the road, and that's to create budget surpluses today, right now, and on into the timeframe that the general fund will be required to begin paying back the SS trust. If the SS obligations were the only federal debt, the whole thing wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. It's really other debt, exploding under Republican stewardship, that threatens SS and the solvency of the govt itself.

Anything else is just smoke and mirrors. Bush and his advisors know it full well. Their plans are to split the people into two groups- those on private accounts, and those on the current system. This fatally weakens the current system, also provides a strong "us vs them" situation that can be exploited to sell out on the trust, cut benefits, end that most hated of all New Deal programs. In the meanwhile, of course, they'll continue to create massive deficits, financed in part from the trust, cut taxes for those at the top, and to shift the burden down the scale. Push it off on the states, whose tax structures are regressive. Bring in a national sales tax, and/or a VAT. Raise excise taxes. Raise "fees" for everything.

SS will become just another regressive tax, those who've paid the most into it for 45 years or so will get left high and dry. Those who've gained the most from current fiscal policy, the top .01%, will rule supreme over a third world backwater, which is the ultimate goal of Rightwing Ideology, like it or not...

Please do tell us how to create budget surplus's in excess of 1 trillion a year starting about 2040.



 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Riprorin
President Bill Clinton made fixing the nation's retirement program a top priority of his second term.

At a forum in 1998 he said "It would be unconscionable if we failed to act."

He warned that it is better to "fix the roof when the sun is shining," and urged finding ways to allow poorer workers to build wealth so they could "own a share of our nation's prosperity."

One propsal from a Clinto appointed bipartisan commission was to allow workers to divert 5% of their payroll taxes to personal accounts.

I believe that it's 4% in Bush's plan.
Yeah but under Clinton we had a surplus. Under the Dub our deficit is growing at unprecedented rates. Who in their right mind would trust the Dub and his Spend Spend Republican Congress to fix SS?


So what you are saying is you support SS reform as the wind blows?
Nope
If Clinton got his reforms through would you want them taken away in 2001??
Again no.

 
Originally posted by: BBond
Not really. A pay as you go system that lets the top wage earners off the hook is doomed.

It's about time the people who benefited the most from Bush's economic policies gave a little back, dont' you think?

If the FICA cap is removed until the system reaches parity the problem is solved.

And to answer the question from the OP,
Why are Libs/Dems Set Against Social Security Reform?
, we're not against reform. We're against Bush's pseudo-reform which in reality is intended to destroy Social Security, not fix it.

Not quite but thanks for playing. How many business's will be interested in paying 6.2% on people working for hundreds of thousands of dollars?!?!?!?!?

Also raising the FICA tax only lengthens the death of the system for a few years. The demogrphics will not support such a system unless they start taxing us much higher than we are used to. When you tax more unemployment will raise, then does the govt really get ahead of the problem? Nope!

The best solution is to scrap the damn thing and erect something that makes people qualify for it and doesnt allow congress to rape it. FDR might have had a good idea but there were no controls put on the system and it was raped since inception.

Morally you shouldnt support an instutiion designed to rape people.

 
Then what is the problem today? Because we have a current deficit?

Logic doesnt really hold up. You know the system needs fixing but because today we have a deficit you dont want it fixed. But you would be willing to fix yesterday even if we ran a deficit today.

 
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