It's not surprising as starting in the field is not to hard, but finding people who are actually good and more than just monkeys is hard. A long with the huge number of people now days who do qualify for these type of starting jobs.
Wyndru
Diamond Member
- Apr 9, 2009
- 7,318
- 4
- 76
Yeah, I've been in the desktop/network support field for 10 years now, with a BS degree and I don't qualify for most jobs even paying $15/hour. Too many people desperate for jobs these days, willing to work for close to nothing. I think I'm about to be laid off again in a few months (3rd time) so I'm getting worried when I see postings like this. Even programming jobs don't post for a lot anymore, I see a lot of $10-$15 jobs openings for that field too. Again requiring a lot of experience and education to get in the door. It sucks.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
The main problem with IS/IT jobs is there are too many 'kids' just looking for a car payment out of their jobs since they are living at home. Many just braindump the exams and are happy with 10-12.50/hr...this wage has been popular since even 2000 and the sad part is people are taking the positions.
A real MCSE or CCNA/CCNP should be in the $70k+ ballpark in most markets *IF* they can talk to the certs they have.
A real MCSE or CCNA/CCNP should be in the $70k+ ballpark in most markets *IF* they can talk to the certs they have.
Ns1
No Lifer
- Jun 17, 2001
- 55,413
- 1,570
- 126
10-12.50/hr is pretty good if you're a HS kid looking for work (and I don't think you need more than HS-level intelligence to pass the A+)
People seem to be getting some positions confused here. There is a large difference between a PC tech doing work at like Geek Squad, and a desktop support tech in a professional work environment.
PC techs are a dime a dozen, a good desktop support tech is harder to find and can command more money mainly because the position requires a good dose of professionalism and customer service to go along with technical skills. I'm no longer in desktop support (sys admin now), but when I was and we were hiring it was amazing the number of people we'd get with very good tech skills, but just completely abysmal social and customer service skills, and lacking the level of professionalism we expect. We went through a ton of resumes and interviews to find the right people, and when we did, we paid them accordingly (over double the hourly rate being discussed here).
PC techs are a dime a dozen, a good desktop support tech is harder to find and can command more money mainly because the position requires a good dose of professionalism and customer service to go along with technical skills. I'm no longer in desktop support (sys admin now), but when I was and we were hiring it was amazing the number of people we'd get with very good tech skills, but just completely abysmal social and customer service skills, and lacking the level of professionalism we expect. We went through a ton of resumes and interviews to find the right people, and when we did, we paid them accordingly (over double the hourly rate being discussed here).
Wyndru
Diamond Member
- Apr 9, 2009
- 7,318
- 4
- 76
My employer used to pay our starting techs $40k plus benefits, but now it's been downrated to $30-35k for new hires (over the last 3 years it has declined). Now they are going through and laying off people in that top tier. I've seen some go already, and I'm on my way out soon too I'm sure. While I agree with what you said, times are definitely changing in IT, and we are a dime a dozen these days. From support roles to network to programming to sys admins, the pool is deep and employers now have the advantage.
Yea it really depends on the company. I've worked for some that really don't care about the quality of the people since they go through them quickly. At my current company we promote from within a lot, so people that we hire at lower levels we take into consideration that they will be with the company for awhile. Most of our current sys admins, some network admins, and other higher up started as either desktop or help desk here. We also have a unique way of doing things, so more is expected from even lower level techs here. Our starting pay for desktop support is considerably higher than both of those numbers (different area than where you area of course, not sure about cost of living, but still a decent bit higher).
Wyndru
Diamond Member
- Apr 9, 2009
- 7,318
- 4
- 76
You guys hiring? I'll move to NC
NY has not been friendly to me (upstate anyhow, I made a ton of money when I lived in the city).
zCypher
Diamond Member
- Aug 18, 2002
- 6,115
- 171
- 116
One of my first jobs I was just building/repairing computers in a computer shop, I was making $8/hr. It wasn't really underpaid either since it couldn't have been easier. Today it's common to find tech support (call center) jobs that pay $16-18/hr if you're looking in the right place. Also not very challenging as far as technical ability is concerned.
Those making more than this are certified, educated and putting it to good use. Obviously the letters after your name don't mean jack if you're still somehow no good. However if you've completed courses like CCNA and CCNP you *should* be able to do the jobs that are paid out at $60k, $70k and more. When you think about it, it's not a bad income to make considering the time it takes to certify compared to getting a full blown degree somewhere. So I'm not sure it's underpaid. Underpaid compared to what?
Those making more than this are certified, educated and putting it to good use. Obviously the letters after your name don't mean jack if you're still somehow no good. However if you've completed courses like CCNA and CCNP you *should* be able to do the jobs that are paid out at $60k, $70k and more. When you think about it, it's not a bad income to make considering the time it takes to certify compared to getting a full blown degree somewhere. So I'm not sure it's underpaid. Underpaid compared to what?
I started as a kid who was into computers getting my A+/N+/MCSE and it got my foot in the door at a startup making like 14 or 15/hr to support their staff and manage the server they had. Today I manage 100 servers or so in a vmware/san/windows environment and all data management. I'm underpaid (less than 70) after 9 years of experience but there's room for growth and salary increase for what I do.
If it wasn't for the certification (didn't do college) and foot in the door shit jobs I wouldn't be where I am now -- but I'm good at what I do; problem solving, that's the key. Whether it was the startup or a call center it wouldn't have made a difference.
If it wasn't for the certification (didn't do college) and foot in the door shit jobs I wouldn't be where I am now -- but I'm good at what I do; problem solving, that's the key. Whether it was the startup or a call center it wouldn't have made a difference.
Ns1
No Lifer
- Jun 17, 2001
- 55,413
- 1,570
- 126
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
At the moment I think appliance tech jobs are higher in prestige and pay than PC tech jobs. Sadly, people are mystified and treat them both in about the same amounts.
I believe the shift started happening when it stopped becoming "this expensive machine that I must take care of" and started becoming "the stupid internet box broke again".
As far as the "PCs are easier to work on" aspect. They very much truly are. Jumpers are now a rarity whereas there used to be dozens. When was the last time you had to deal with an IO card? If you're under 20, you probably never have. All the ports you need are on the motherboard. And in many cases, so is the video. Large hard drives are incredibly cheap. Memory is cheap. Software really has become much more user friendly. Configuring modems is largely a thing of the past. USB has cure most of the peripheral woes.
Honestly, the level of skill needed to be a decent PC tech has dropped. Techs are no longer on the level of chefs, but now fry cooks. There is still a need for "high end" techs, however they don't go by the term PC tech anymore. They tend to be systems engineers and such.
I believe the shift started happening when it stopped becoming "this expensive machine that I must take care of" and started becoming "the stupid internet box broke again".
As far as the "PCs are easier to work on" aspect. They very much truly are. Jumpers are now a rarity whereas there used to be dozens. When was the last time you had to deal with an IO card? If you're under 20, you probably never have. All the ports you need are on the motherboard. And in many cases, so is the video. Large hard drives are incredibly cheap. Memory is cheap. Software really has become much more user friendly. Configuring modems is largely a thing of the past. USB has cure most of the peripheral woes.
Honestly, the level of skill needed to be a decent PC tech has dropped. Techs are no longer on the level of chefs, but now fry cooks. There is still a need for "high end" techs, however they don't go by the term PC tech anymore. They tend to be systems engineers and such.
Joemonkey
Diamond Member
- Mar 3, 2001
- 8,862
- 2
- 0
I've never gotten a job because of who I knew. I interviewed blindly with my 1st one, got it, 2 years later wanted a shorter commute, interviewed blindly with the 2nd one, got it, 2 years later had a recruiter contact me (because I put my MCSE on my resume on Monster.com) about a job offer in a city 2 hours away, blindly interviewed there, got it, had a reorg there where I had my first shitty manager ever, so I looked for another position at another business in that same city, blindly interviewed there, and got it.
The ONLY reason I took the 2nd and 3rd jobs were because I was building my skillsets so quickly and the current employers weren't willing to give me a large raise or promotion based on that. So, I took my new skillsets elsewhere where they paid me quite well for them. The percentage increase of my salary went something like this:
From 1 - 2: 38% increase
From 2 - 3: 47% increase
From 3 - 4: 10% increase
The last two places have had tuition reimbursement, and I've thought about finishing a degree, but last time I took a college course it was all I could do to sit through it
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
Jobs like PC technician are low skill in that they are highly scriptable: If this light doesn't blink, do this. If not, do that. If it still doesn't work, charge the user $90 and send it off to the depot.
That's not meant as an insult to people who work in this role - ultimately a business decision high up is responsible for the level of quality of technicians in a company. Since there's usually no management pressure to staff only the capable, someone who can perform the minimum of read workflow is usually the person who gets the job. If on the other hand society tomorrow demanded that PC technicians make as few errors as heart surgeons, pay would skyrocket upwards.
That's not meant as an insult to people who work in this role - ultimately a business decision high up is responsible for the level of quality of technicians in a company. Since there's usually no management pressure to staff only the capable, someone who can perform the minimum of read workflow is usually the person who gets the job. If on the other hand society tomorrow demanded that PC technicians make as few errors as heart surgeons, pay would skyrocket upwards.
sourceninja
Diamond Member
- Mar 8, 2005
- 8,805
- 65
- 91
It's actually my fear for my pc techs now. We are moving to a all virtual desktop environment. PC tech work is turning into this sheet of solutions.
1) If the computer has a virus, spyware, malware, errors, or is not working as expected, have the user logoff and login again to be given a brand new new desktop.
1a) If the malware is in their profile, rollback their profile to pre-virus snapshot or delete affected files.
2) If the user needs software installed, add them to the appropriate AD group and have the user logoff and login again.
3) If the user's hardware fails, given them a new thin client/monitor/keyboard/mouse.
4) Remind users how to use their basic office software from time to time.
That is it, basically no other skills are needed. I'm trying to get them to see this and to start to learn the more advanced skills needed to run the virtual environment. We need people to package and update applications, create new OS gold images, test patches to OS/software, and help manage/patch the vm servers. However, sadly, they seem to think the status quo of complex, individual, break-fix will always be the norm.
1) If the computer has a virus, spyware, malware, errors, or is not working as expected, have the user logoff and login again to be given a brand new new desktop.
1a) If the malware is in their profile, rollback their profile to pre-virus snapshot or delete affected files.
2) If the user needs software installed, add them to the appropriate AD group and have the user logoff and login again.
3) If the user's hardware fails, given them a new thin client/monitor/keyboard/mouse.
4) Remind users how to use their basic office software from time to time.
That is it, basically no other skills are needed. I'm trying to get them to see this and to start to learn the more advanced skills needed to run the virtual environment. We need people to package and update applications, create new OS gold images, test patches to OS/software, and help manage/patch the vm servers. However, sadly, they seem to think the status quo of complex, individual, break-fix will always be the norm.
Wyndru
Diamond Member
- Apr 9, 2009
- 7,318
- 4
- 76
Decent techs will research ways to block viruses/malware from occurring in the first place. I wrote scripts for ghost console that sets ACL's on registry items on all of the PC's that viruses commonly attack, now we get much less calls than we used to. I also locked down people from messing with system settings because people who know too much to be dangerous commonly fuck with stuff and make my life hell. If people need to install something, they call me, I unlock it from the console, and let them do their thing before locking it back down again. It allows me to screen what is being installed which is nice.
Regarding hardware, for us it's not just the replacing an item for them, but also processing a replacement from dell in our job. We need to do a self dispatch, which requires Dell certs (albeit a simple test to get this), and when you submit a request, they want lots of troubleshooting details. Not just "it broke". You need to run through their specific set of testing and include all of the results before they will even process a warranty return.
Granted, my job description occasionally goes above the standard tech level, since I handle basically everything from administering novell accounts to switch, router and server config to plain PC support, running cable, Wireless Lan config, etc... So while your normal geek squad position might be a scripted position, there are still a lot of techs out there that require more than that. I guess it depends on how the duties are broken up among employees.
sourceninja
Diamond Member
- Mar 8, 2005
- 8,805
- 65
- 91
What you describe is still a traditional pc centric environment. Our thin clients cost 200 a pop. It's not worth it to keep warrantees up on them. I keep a dozen extra on hand. If it dies, no need to send it back for a replacement, just grab one of the shelf and recycle the old one.
All my users have no reason to be locked down. Their desktop is temporary. A single reboot destroys their desktop and makes a new one (well actually there is about 20 waiting for people to use at all times and when you log out the desktop you are using is destroyed). So putting effort into locking down users is really a waste of time, they will always have write access to their own profile and thats the only thing that is persistant.
So in the end we have
1) Networking guys
2) Server guys
3) Virtualization guys
4) Guys who answer the phone and replace failed monitors, thinclients, and mice.
4 used to be guys with the most work. They had to troubleshoot desktops, drop new images, migrate people from old to new computers, fix spyware/malware/virus issues, answer the phone, install software, general PC maintenance, etc. That gave them better pay because they had a lot of responsibilities. But with VDI, they no longer have any of that. They do drop in replacements of hardware (unbox, swap cables, throw away old or open a RMA call if still under support), answer the phone to fill general "how do I do X in excel" questions, and tell people to logoff and log back in. I can now replace them with first year IT student workers at min wage.
So what I was trying to get across is that the smart move is for them to use their position to learn more about how we work and gain skills that allow them to move to a job role where they can still justify their pay. There are plenty of areas to pick from and at least where I work, we are always willing to help educate people and allow for cross-training.
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Joemonkey
Diamond Member
- Mar 3, 2001
- 8,862
- 2
- 0
we're about to go this route too, but even go a step farther where there is no VDI, just presented apps. Thin client boots up to an IE shell with all the Citrix presented apps on a page, no start menu or anything. Definitely a new direction to go!
PricklyPete
Lifer
- Sep 17, 2002
- 14,714
- 164
- 106
My thought exactly. There are thousands of high-schoolers on this forum who can do a better job than most full time PC techs. They are becoming the oil-changers of the industry.
Wyndru
Diamond Member
- Apr 9, 2009
- 7,318
- 4
- 76
Very much so. It's a high school, so each wing has specific needs, whether it be a beefed up processor/ram/video card or specific software. Every room has a projector in the ceiling, so we require dual outputs as well. Even our cloning requires a number of different images because the software is so different from room to room. I really wish we could just use thin clients, my life would be so much easier.
We also tried the method of overwriting the pc's in our labs with both ghost and pcrdist but the lab TA's complained about the boot time in the morning. For us, just blocking things from getting messed up ahead of time works better.
So we keep the place running smooth they are still cutting positions and paying new hires less. They also agreed recently to have us open access up on our secure content filter, so the kiddies can get to facebook and twitter
. Good times to be a tech. I don't think I'll be doing this for much longer. I may have to go back into mundane programming in a cubicle for $15/hour.
sourceninja
Diamond Member
- Mar 8, 2005
- 8,805
- 65
- 91
Very much so. It's a high school, so each wing has specific needs, whether it be a beefed up processor/ram/video card or specific software. Every room has a projector in the ceiling, so we require dual outputs as well. Even our cloning requires a number of different images because the software is so different from room to room. I really wish we could just use thin clients, my life would be so much easier.
We also tried the method of overwriting the pc's in our labs with both ghost and pcrdist but the lab TA's complained about the boot time in the morning. For us, just blocking things from getting messed up ahead of time works better.
So we keep the place running smooth they are still cutting positions and paying new hires less. They also agreed recently to have us open access up on our secure content filter, so the kiddies can get to facebook and twitter
We had the same setup. Every lab had different software requirements and thus sometimes different hardware as well. We also have projectors in the ceilings. Thinapp + vmware view + good thin clients was the solution. Our thin clients can do dual to quad monitors at very high resolutions (1920 X 1200). We then push out a single windows image that has essential no software on it. Based on the user that logs in that image uses thinreg or msi pushes to "install" the software you need. When you log out, that vm is destroyed. Your profile is stored on it's own user data layer.
This is a server centric solution. We have also looked at a desktop centric virtualization solution called NxTop where each workstation is a real PC that runs a hypervisor OS. There is then a central server that pushes down a 'vm' image to the workstation for it to run. The downside here was that the workstations need to be fairly robust (2 gigs of ram min, etc). The upside is the workstation can run multiple VM's at the same time and use a keyboard shortcut to switch between them.
We opted for a server centric solution because our long term goal (in the next 3 years) is to require all entering students to have their own devices. VMWare view has clients for osx, linux, windows, iOS, and android so it will allow us to deliver a consistant desktop with all the applications a student needs on almost any device.
If you can't get the to fund something like thinapp, try cameyo. It's free and does a lot of the things thinapp does. Combine that with some nice login scripts and you can store a lot of your applications in a network folder and just place shortcuts to them on the desktop. This will speed up your deploy and refresh times.
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Wyndru
Diamond Member
- Apr 9, 2009
- 7,318
- 4
- 76
If you don't mind me asking, what manufacturer/model thin clients are you using that have this kind of power for $200? This could be great for us if it runs everything smoothly. We need to be able to run the full autodesk 2011 package as well as Adobe CS5 in most of our labs. We have been purchasing Dells for about $500 a piece (including monitor, mouse & keyboard) but recently we have lost state aide and they want to charge us around 900-1100 per.
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