Why are computer battery back-ups so unreliable?

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: mooseracing
I think it's been overstated but if you want it to last spend the money, everyone hates to do it yet everyone will complain if it isn't up to our standards. There's a reason we have a 3000VA Rackmount battery for our servers. There's also a reason we have a big Liebert that powers multiple important rooms, has multiple hot swap batteries, qualified electrician has to start it up for warranty purposes, cost over 30k.

I've haven't seen a single desktopp brand I like including APC, Ultra, Tripplite.

it is somewhat important to be balanced .. you 3000Va would be overkill for my little PC .. if the HD melts, i won't lose anything

my "compromise" APC is good enough for me; short of lightening striking the UPS, what could go wrong for me?

seriously .. why would i EVER need a $30,000 as back up for a $1000 pc?
- i'd just buy another one .. or two or three .. one for each component with a "back-up" UPS backing the UPS up
people who need to produce a pure sine wave usually have reason to do so .. not any home user .. a bank, yes!

it makes no sense for ANY home user - unless you are Bill Gates and you take your work home

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: apoppin

seriously .. why would i EVER need a $30,000 as back up for a $1000 pc?

I hope you were being sarcastic.....I was referring to spending the cash to protect your hardware. Youw ant quality you have to pay for it. These POS APC's and any other brand thats a hundred bucks, don't expect a whole lot out of it. Get into some enterprise grade and you won't have to worry as much.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: mooseracing

Originally posted by: apoppin

seriously .. why would i EVER need a $30,000 as back up for a $1000 pc?

I hope you were being sarcastic.....I was referring to spending the cash to protect your hardware. Youw ant quality you have to pay for it. These POS APC's and any other brand thats a hundred bucks, don't expect a whole lot out of it. Get into some enterprise grade and you won't have to worry as much.

[/quote]

No, educate me

i really do not compute

tell me what is wrong with my - what *i* think is bang-for-buck for a high-power, non critical system that is backed up anyway - UPS >>
>> this One:

http://www.apc.com/resource/in...ku=BT1500BP&tab=models


the ONLY thing i see that is not "perfect" is this:

Waveform Type: Stepped approximation to a sinewave

it is not "perfect"
- how badly "stepped" can it be for a home PC?
[ooh, accidental poetry

]

Please show me something else for even close to twice $120 shipped, that will provide my Highly O/C'd e4300 and HD2900 Crossfire a safer or more perfect experience - i need at least 700w/1300va to feel really safe.

can you find one for even 4 times more expensive?
i looked. FORGET me spending $500 for a frickin' UPS .. it is simply not worth it to me pERI0D - i can toss my MB and the rest of my HW into the garbage for the slight chance MY current UPS will fail me; hasn't happened once in 20 years! i can afford "once" .. letsee that would be over $2000 of pro UPSes in that same time - unneeded.

You remind me of an audiophile tweak that would diss my Mark Levinson Modified Citation Tube Preamp because it was not the 'very latest' and there would be a 'hint of fuzziness' at 12hz
- wells my stacked DQ10s didn't even go down to 12hz .. so i want more than a nitpick

show me practical advantages to getting something better than what i have currently for a UPS - for PC "insurance"

Practical - you can use Highly Technical jargon and i am sure i will understand. Right now i do not "get it".
No, not at all

 

[NeoPTLD]

Originally posted by: spikespiegal
Can somebody explain to me why computer UPSs (battery back-ups) are so absurdly unreliable? Here in Michigan the 12volt 'Walmart Special' battery in my car can tolerate several years of extreme temperature changes, several jump starts due to leaving my lights on in the parking lot, and cranking a car engine starter several times a day.

The failure threshold is much lower on a car battery. If a new battery can provide 20 consecutive engine starts w/o charging, but 3 years later, it can only do 8 consecutive starts. For the intended purpose, this is not a problem at all. When a computer UPS that provided 6 minutes new can only provide 2 1/2 minutes of runtime, the performance is probably considered no longer acceptable.

You're only using a very small percentage of available capacity to start the car, so even if the capacity is halved, if it can provide enough current it doesn't affect its intended use. Leaving the lights on in the parking lot is certainly bad for it since you're deep discharging it, which a car battery is not meant to do.

However, the typical desktop computer UPS I've been deploying the past several years (all brands) seems to last an average of less than two years sitting in a cozy office and rarely being tripped more than a couple times over it's lifetime.

UPS batteries are float charged, maintained around 13.8v 24/7/365. Batteries that are only charged after use or periodically are charged on "cyclical basis" such as a car battery or golf cart battery. Letting a lead acid battery sit around discharged is bad, but continuously keeping it under charge also shortens life compared to cyclical use. If your UPS was configured to charge up and only top off monthly or after battery power was used, it will last longer, but you'll get less runtime.

Hot off the charger, the battery retains a "surface charge" which will dissipate in a few hours. This is why you often leave the lights on for 5 minutes or so before testing a car battery. On a computer UPS, this surface charge means a extra runtime on batter and when it's on float charge, you reap the benefit of it whenever you switch over to battery power, but if its only setup to charge after use/monthly the runtime won't be as long.

I've heard several explanations for this ranging from the poor floor life of gell type batteries to cheap chinese voltage regulation and recharge circuits. Other than paying for 'server farm' class UPSs that weigh (and cost) a ton I'm really looking for an alternative solution that works better and can be trusted for 3-4 years. Any way to incorporate a conventional 12volt car battery into this type of circuit and get more reliability?

The prices you pay for sealed cells are higher cost and lower durability in exchange for having batteries that won't leak acid and can be shipped as non hazardous material. Do you rather have batteries that will spill acid if the UPS is turned on its side?

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: apoppin

tell me what is wrong with my - what *i* think is bang-for-buck for a high-power, non critical system that is backed up anyway - UPS >>

I'm not trying to tell you want is wrong with what you think about your own personal purchases. I am just stating don't expect a whole lot for 100 bucks like the OP is talking about. You could spend a grand and have something that lasts alot longer but who really wants to spend that. Nearly everyone in America including me is about getting things cheap. But I don't complain when my wrench from Autozone snaps or rounds a bolt, I took that chance when I bought it.

The only "practical" advantage to a higher dollar one is the battery as it slowly dies year by year you will still have enough charge left to keep going depending on how long that is. If I was that worried about uptime screw spending the money on a UPS, I can waste it on a tranfer generator.

 

[KIAman]

To the OP.

Because a car battery is ugly, stinky and potentially dangerous in an enclosed room.

A UPC is pretty, has flashing lights and safe in an enclosed room.

This reminds me of the time my father was going on a rant on how new things break down so much. He swears he had an old microwave that lasted 18 years while the new all plastic, pretty design barely made its 3rd year. His tube tv was going on it's 25th year while the flashy new plasma gave a final salute at year 4.

 

[RideFree]

Gotta go with KIAman on this.

Supply side economics. Build it cheaper and they will open their wallets.

 

[lurk3r]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: spikespiegal
No offense to everyone, but besides the reply from Modelworks there was nothing helpful here.

Rant = on

If I ask a theoretical physics question about quantum entanglement in this forum I get somebody with a graduate degree answering for me. If I ask an applied engineering question with some form of practical application I have to sort through answers that sound like a 5th grade science glass.

(Listening to the steady exodus of engineering jobs away from the U.S., and no longer wondering why)

Just like it's no surprise that the quality of responses in HT has gone down with the recent influx of knuckle draggers like yourself. If you want a thorough answer, ask a question that would elicit such an answer. I answered your question very succinctly and correctly in the very first response in this thread. If you wanted a more in-depth answer, you should have asked a more in-depth question.

Exactly!!

I love how people have no idea what the question they are asking is, and attack people who answer.

From personal experience, I bought the cheapo APC from Costco about 7 years ago, it was around $89 iirc. It has been flawless thru many power interruptions, surges that took out banks of lights in my house, and even kept my gaming addiction stated during the 3 day power outage a couple years back, I charged it up using the inverter on the battery I use to jump the gf's car, and charged that with my car on short drives while the nation had no power for 3 days.

My new place has much more stable power, but I have moved my computer with power on a couple times this year, APC is still working flawlessly. I did not bother installing the software, and only use the powered plugs for the DSL modem, router, computer and main monitor. If you hare having problems with reliability there is likely something wrong.

 

[BladeVenom]

I have 3 APC units. All are 5 years old or older. I've only had to replace one battery. Seems good to me.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

They arent unreliable really, I have an OLD APC backups 350 that I've had for nearly 6 years and it still runs great. The last power outage if gave me about 10 minutes of runtime which is more than I need.