Why are a lot of skilled trades still apprenticeships?

[SunnyD]

I'm curious - why are skilled trades still taught as apprenticeships? I'd of thought in this day and age someone or some college would have picked up on trade professions and started offering some stupid degree/certification program on it.

What gives?

Curious note: The only reason I ask is that my idiot upstairs neighbor started sort of working as an apprentice locksmith. It got me thinking - how do people prove they're actually good at a trade profession in this modern world without the diploma or certificate to back it up?

 

[Colt45]

It wouldn't be a 'trade' if you got a degree, would it?

 

[BigJ]

Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

Please tell me how you plan to simulate working on residential and commercial buildings and all the fuckups you'd find in them.

As for licensing, generally the students would have to work 40 hours a week for 4 years under a Master Tradesman to get their Journeyman's License.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

err, not quite the same. There is a lot more variables in trades than in physics or chemistry experiments.

 

[herm0016]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

negitive. "simulating" real life is never a good substitute for real life. every job is different, every job requires little tips and tricks. even engineering is like this.

 

[Leros]

The system works. Why screw with it?

Colleges would end up teaching a bunch of extra crap due to requirements. Plumbers don't need to know English and Government, just plumbing.

 

[Vette73]

They do have degrees. I know some Comm. Colleges have degrees for plumbing, electirical, welding, Auto body, etc...

The CC in my old town even had a guarentee that if you hired someoen with a degree in a trade feild and they could not do their job they would re-train them for free.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

Please tell me how you plan to simulate working on residential and commercial buildings and all the fuckups you'd find in them.

As for licensing, generally the students would have to work 40 hours a week for 4 years under a Master Tradesman to get their Journeyman's License.

the same way they simulate stuff for other programs?

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: herm0016

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

negitive. "simulating" real life is never a good substitute for real life. every job is different, every job requires little tips and tricks. even engineering is like this.

suppose you go to college and get a degree in accounting. Would a firm hire you and plop you down and say "ok, get to accounting now" or would they show you that they use SAP or an AS/400 interface or access or excel or whatever and how they use it first?

EVERY job has specifics that cannot be addressed in school, but you get the basics done in school and then someone at the actual job trains you or the company sends you to specialized training for the specifics.

If I got a degree in residential plumbing, and in our "labs" we took out and installed toilets, tank water heaters, and kitchen sinks with sprayers, but I get hired on for a company where they take out and install bidets, tankless water heaters, and kitchen sinks with garbage disposals, wouldn't you think i'd get some speicfic training from the company before they threw me out in the field?

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: Leros
The system works. Why screw with it?

Colleges would end up teaching a bunch of extra crap due to requirements. Plumbers don't need to know English and Government, just plumbing.

neither do engineers or programmers or physical therapists or...

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
suppose you go to college and get a degree in accounting. Would a firm hire you and plop you down and say "ok, get to accounting now" or would they show you that they use SAP or an AS/400 interface or access or excel or whatever and how they use it first?

EVERY job has specifics that cannot be addressed in school, but you get the basics done in school and then someone at the actual job trains you or the company sends you to specialized training for the specifics.

If I got a degree in residential plumbing, and in our "labs" we took out and installed toilets, tank water heaters, and kitchen sinks with sprayers, but I get hired on for a company where they take out and install bidets, tankless water heaters, and kitchen sinks with garbage disposals, wouldn't you think i'd get some speicfic training from the company before they threw me out in the field?

Then what the hell is the point of you getting a degree in the first place? You could've already had experience with the stuff you didn't cover in your degree program if you worked an apprenticeship.

Essentially, for schools to have a degree program in the trades, they would have to become their own contracting operations.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: herm0016

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

negitive. "simulating" real life is never a good substitute for real life. every job is different, every job requires little tips and tricks. even engineering is like this.

suppose you go to college and get a degree in accounting. Would a firm hire you and plop you down and say "ok, get to accounting now" or would they show you that they use SAP or an AS/400 interface or access or excel or whatever and how they use it first?

EVERY job has specifics that cannot be addressed in school, but you get the basics done in school and then someone at the actual job trains you or the company sends you to specialized training for the specifics.

If I got a degree in residential plumbing, and in our "labs" we took out and installed toilets, tank water heaters, and kitchen sinks with sprayers, but I get hired on for a company where they take out and install bidets, tankless water heaters, and kitchen sinks with garbage disposals, wouldn't you think i'd get some speicfic training from the company before they threw me out in the field?

It would take a day to learn how to install a toilet, and another day for each of those other things you mentioned.

You would be in school for a week.

Yes, you can apply that knowledge to every job. No, it doesn't make you an expert at installing those items.

 

[KlokWyze]

Apprenticeships seem far more effective in teaching skills & getting you the right business contacts then college.

I think that the "normal trades" haven't been made into a full time class room curriculum yet is due to a bunch of factors like, unions, they are "blue-collar" (a good # of the heads doing it couldn't afford college in the 1st place), etc.

 

[Gibson486]

So...are you saying that we should impliment a "How to install a toliet" class for one semester? Plumbing and Electrician work is purely hands on. Aside from knowing the dangers and a few key principals (sp?), college is not really useful for them.

 

[nanette1985]

A better question is, why do you have to get a college degree to do things? My own degrees are in music and computer science. The music degree was just a way for the college to make a bunch of money while I spent my time learning music by hanging out with the profs and with other musicians, and playing in the local bar to make enough to cover my tuition. The only thing the degree is worth is if I wanted to teach music in a college . . . I had a good time, but college wasn't necessary.

I got the MS in CS when I was programming, my work only hired people with CS degrees but I got the job because I was working on a project that they bought. I thought the classes were interesting but it was my programming experience that enabled me to do the job, and the time spent getting the degree would have been better spent getting more programming experience.

I'm not discussing sociology with my plumber - I want him to know how to fix my toilet.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

Please tell me how you plan to simulate working on residential and commercial buildings and all the fuckups you'd find in them.

As for licensing, generally the students would have to work 40 hours a week for 4 years under a Master Tradesman to get their Journeyman's License.

the same way they simulate stuff for other programs?

Do you know how EE's get trained in that stuff? They don't. They closest thing they do is use power simulation programs to display would what happen if you change loads and paths. That stuff is useless to an electrician.

This is what an electrician does day to day:

I need to insert wire A to wire B....
It needs to be put in this conduit....
It needs to be weather tight....
Ooops...the engineering firm contridicted themselves....time for a change order.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

Please tell me how you plan to simulate working on residential and commercial buildings and all the fuckups you'd find in them.

As for licensing, generally the students would have to work 40 hours a week for 4 years under a Master Tradesman to get their Journeyman's License.

the same way they simulate stuff for other programs?

Poorly? What do you actually use on the job, maybe 15% of what you learn in college?

 

[magicrat03]

You do not have to train under a Master to become a Journeyman. Most people are taught by Journeymen not Masters. As an apprentice you do about 600 hours of schooling over your 4 year apprenticeship. Vocational school or community college is usually where you go for that. While doing 4 years/8000 hours of on the job training. Usually the degree/certificate will put you miles ahead of others you start with. But you still do the 8000 hours, but if you already have the class you do not have to retake it.

'Book learning' helps, but for things like trouble shooting, stuff made before your grandparents where born, etc etc you need on the job training. Some places might take a degree for somethings but they usually want degree and work experience. With the degree getting you out of some of the experience required. But some places require a degree(usually 2yr is fine) and experience.

 

[T9D]

...

 

[Jeff7]

I'D HAVE THOUGHT!!!!!!

 

[bignateyk]

Because you don't learn much in college. I learned more in the first two months on the job than I learned in 4 years of college (And that was graduating with a 3.8 GPA in EE). Not to mention that in just about every other job you work as part of a team, and your responsibilities increase as you learn more, so essentially you are an apprentice when you first start. Trade positions don't usually work in teams. You don't see a team of plumbers come to your house. Therefore they need to know a lot more about their discipline that comes with years of experience.

 

[Descartes]

As others have said, it's about experience. No amount of reading, controlled projects to mimic the realities of a real project, internships, etc. can substitute the experience you get from actually doing the work.

Personally, I feel that IT should follow the same journeyman->master path. The industry outputs such horribly non-productive people into the market that it often takes years just for them to forget what they thought they knew and face the realities. All it would take is shadowing a competent IT person for a year or two to get a solid working foundation.

The reason this model wouldn't work for physics, most engineering disciplines, legal, etc. is that there is such a large body of knowledge one first has to acquire. As a result, the actual practice has a lot more deterministic qualities to it than do trades that interact with the business, consumers, etc. In other words, they are more known quantities; the basic laws of physics aren't going to change from one day to the next, but this is precisely what happens for most tradesmen. The skill comes from adapting to the changes, and understanding that laws are more like principles, and even those bend.

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: BigJ
Three points I'll state real quickly:

1. Licensing and its various levels
2. Unions
3. Hands-on experience trumps all, which you don't get from a textbook.

1 and 3 can be done in a college or university setting, just like there are chemistry and physics labs and 100, 200, 300, etc. level courses.

Please tell me how you plan to simulate working on residential and commercial buildings and all the fuckups you'd find in them.

As for licensing, generally the students would have to work 40 hours a week for 4 years under a Master Tradesman to get their Journeyman's License.

the same way they simulate stuff for other programs?

Do you know how EE's get trained in that stuff? They don't. They closest thing they do is use power simulation programs to display would what happen if you change loads and paths. That stuff is useless to an electrician.

This is what an electrician does day to day:

I need to insert wire A to wire B....
It needs to be put in this conduit....
It needs to be weather tight....
Ooops...the engineering firm contridicted themselves....time for a change order.

thing is, you need to know why that red wire is red. as well as how to start a motor with wire logic. that is learned in college before you actually do it. i work for an elec contractor as an industrial programmer, my motor controls knowledge came from drafting for 4 years, as well as hands on as an apprentice. i applied that to programming knowledge i got from my college career. together they gave me the knowledge to do my job without going to the classes that the electricians we hire have to go through. and generally the apprentices dont have any schooling beyond the electrical courses, i think a college degree for being a journeyman electrician would be a waste of a lot of their time and money.

also, EEs arent going to be going out and wiring up a RTU cabinet, or laying conduit in a job site.