Why are 4:3 monitors disappearing?

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Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
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The answer is manufacturing cost.
LCD panels are made in a similar fashion to silicon processors. You have a substrate which you cut into functional units. ALso, panels these days are all what used to be called active tft. Basically, the silicon needed for pixel switching is deposited on the back of the panel. As a result, you run into the same problems with yield as Intel or TSMC.

That being said, widescreen offers great benefits to manufacturers.
The immediate benefit is lowered production cost. Since panels are produced on a single substrate which is then cut, widescreen format fits more panels. Similar to processors, this lowers the cost per final product because of yield. It's a lot harder to produce a large, single, functional panel than three out of four smaller panels on the same substrate. Simple geometry.
Second, marketing had a field day during the transition. Same or bigger numbers emblazoned on products cheaper to produce. Consumers don't care to sit there and count pixels. They just look for bigger (or smaller, if it's a stat like delay) numbers. You have to sit both screens side by side for the average consumer to comprehend the difference in viewable area and even then they tend to look at the sticker price instead.
Third, the long term effects of manufacturers moving to widescreen meant that equipment also moved to widescreen. From each generation to the next, the cost of equipment rose significantly, reducing the number of companies that make them through simple cost of overhead. Eventually, the few companies left took to working together to develop the next generation. These same companies often preferred to produce widescreen because of the higher yields and the ability to produce the same panels for both computer and television. As each generation came and went, companies stopped developing equipment for non-widescreen formats. Subsequently, cost migrated pretty much the rest of the industry to produce widescreen.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,866
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A niche application doesn't answer the question. Use your brain for something other than defensiveness.

My dad just got a netbook. It is, of course, widescreen. The windows taskbar and app menu bar take up a good 1/3rd of his vertical real estate.

Having two documents open side by side is definitely NOT a niche application open a poll if you disagree. I remember the first time I used the "snap to half" function in windows 7. Fell in love with the OS.

And to your fathers netbook problem. How would decreasing the horizontal viewing area magically increase vertical area? As far as I know V != H.
 

Qbah

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2005
3,754
10
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@Qbah
Yes, but unfortunately it doesn't happen like that when you compare the same size monitors, for example a 19" square vs a 19" wide.

So when you are buying a monitor, say a 17" or 19", and you see two units, one 4:3 and the other 16:9/10, then the other one will be "taller" and will display more lines if it matters to you.

The difference is when you buy a 19/20" 4:3, you won't be comparing it to a 19/20" 16:10 as the latter is a lot cheaper and has a lower resolution. You will compare it to a 24" 16:10 monitor, as it's in the same price range and offers the same height. We could compare a GeForce 9800 to a Radeon 9800, both have "9800" in the name. But it doesn't make sense. Same for the monitors - a 20" 4:3 isn't priced the same as a 20" WS and they don't offer comparable resolutions. So there's no point. A valid comparison is vs a 24" as it's within the same price range imo

And in this scenario - the 24" wins. It offers everything the 20" does and then some.

Btw I loved my PVA Fujitsu-Siemens P19-2. It's still going strong at my parent's house and has an absolutely gorgeous picture quality. But the moment I went widescreen it was obvious for me this is the way to go. It feels very weird using it when I visit them. However when I first used a widescreen, it immediately felt natural.

I went from a 1280x1024 to a 1680x1050 monitor at first, so pretty much the same height resolution (now I have a 1920x1200 TN one). The PVA->TN downgrade was very obvious to me, but the "ease on eyes" and general ergonomics of use put it waaaaay past the worse angles and color. I would never go back to a 4:3 screen even if it meant sticking with TN.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
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The difference is when you buy a 19/20" 4:3, you won't be comparing it to a 19/20" 16:10 as the latter is a lot cheaper and has a lower resolution. You will compare it to a 24" 16:10 monitor, as it's in the same price range and offers the same height.
I had no idea they were in the same price range, that makes sense if so. The only square ones I've last seen that were that big were CRT, never saw LCDs like them, so it was actually cheaper than the wide LCDs or same price.

I went from a 1280x1024 to a 1680x1050 monitor at first, so pretty much the same height resolution
Also my plan, to keep the same height.

. The PVA->TN downgrade was very obvious to me, but the "ease on eyes" and general ergonomics of use put it waaaaay past the worse angles and color
1680 PVA to 1920 TN? And even so, you liked the 1920 TN better due to real estate? I could understand that, actually. I'm guessing both of us aren't graphic designers anyway. They're pretty much, to my knowledge, the major composition of people who would never use TN for their trade.
 

Qbah

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2005
3,754
10
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1680 PVA to 1920 TN? And even so, you liked the 1920 TN better due to real estate? I could understand that, actually. I'm guessing both of us aren't graphic designers anyway. They're pretty much, to my knowledge, the major composition of people who would never use TN for their trade.

No, the 22" 1680x1050 was TN already. If I had a 1680x1050 PVA LCD I don't think I would "upgrade" it to a 1920x1200 TN :) There was a promo on the one I'm using now, so I bought it. Also sold the old 22" so all in all I didn't spend that much in the 22" -> 24" shift :)
 

yh125d

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2006
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Very few people prefer 4:3/5:4 to 16:10/16:10. The natural human FoV is rectangular anyway
 

blanketyblank

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2007
1,149
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The difference is when you buy a 19/20" 4:3, you won't be comparing it to a 19/20" 16:10 as the latter is a lot cheaper and has a lower resolution. You will compare it to a 24" 16:10 monitor, as it's in the same price range and offers the same height. We could compare a GeForce 9800 to a Radeon 9800, both have "9800" in the name. But it doesn't make sense. Same for the monitors - a 20" 4:3 isn't priced the same as a 20" WS and they don't offer comparable resolutions. So there's no point. A valid comparison is vs a 24" as it's within the same price range imo

And in this scenario - the 24" wins. It offers everything the 20" does and then some.

Btw I loved my PVA Fujitsu-Siemens P19-2. It's still going strong at my parent's house and has an absolutely gorgeous picture quality. But the moment I went widescreen it was obvious for me this is the way to go. It feels very weird using it when I visit them. However when I first used a widescreen, it immediately felt natural.

I went from a 1280x1024 to a 1680x1050 monitor at first, so pretty much the same height resolution (now I have a 1920x1200 TN one). The PVA->TN downgrade was very obvious to me, but the "ease on eyes" and general ergonomics of use put it waaaaay past the worse angles and color. I would never go back to a 4:3 screen even if it meant sticking with TN.

Price comparisons aren't really fair now since as the topic said 4:3 monitors are dissapearing and we all know short supply means higher prices. Also as you said your monitor before was a PVA panel so it is justifiably more expensive. IPS or VA widescreens are easily 2-3 times more expensive than TN widescreens now excluding SOYO products and other no name brands. Hypothetically if they weren't dissapearing we should be comparing monitors of the same manufacturing cost since that would have accounted for the price assuming similar demand.

Anyways I do agree that widescreen monitors have their uses as they are better for movies and some games. They have been traditionally worse in SD TV, but that is changing quickly. As for text or office productivity I prefer my 1600 x 1200 monitor to 1920 x 1080.
The vertical lines help a lot, and you can easily rotate the screen for an extra 400 more (not really doable on a TN though unless you want horrible discoloration). Unless your desk is lower and your monitor arm is really high you can't physically rotate a widescreen monitor without bumping into the desk. Even my 20" can just barely rotate and it's almost a square. I'll be sad when it finally goes since a replacement will be too expensive to justify.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
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Hmm.. the highest common 4:3 resolution I know is 1600x1200... and it has the same number of lines as a 1920x1200 monitor. The next standard 4:3 is 2048x1536 and if you need that many lines you can get a 30" Dell with 2560x1600. So I don't really see any advantages of a 4:3 screen.

If you really need this aspect, you can run it with "keep aspect ratio" and you will get black bars on the sides. But it's silly... A WS resolution offers more than a 4:3 resolution and not the other way round.

The aspect ratio has nothing to do with the amount of space available on the screen, it is only a way of portraying it. There is a marketing reason to have the aspect ratio be more rectangular than square, and that is that is allows smaller monitors to be advertized at the same size. For example: a 4:3 aspect monitor at 24" would be 276.5 square inches, while a 16:9 aspect monitor at 24" would be 246.6 square inches. This saves the companies 11% of the material it would take to make a 4:3 aspect ratio 24" monitor and they use it as a selling point. (Since the 24" widescreen monitor is smaller than the 24" standard screen monitor.)

You can letter box either monitor, so your point isn't valid about being able to keep an aspect ratio with one and not the other. The only difference would be where you would put the letter boxes.
 

Phil1977

Senior member
Dec 8, 2009
228
0
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Out of curiousity.

What is the largetst 4:3 LCD made?

20" 1600 x 1200 or where there larger models?
 

Qbah

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2005
3,754
10
81
The aspect ratio has nothing to do with the amount of space available on the screen, it is only a way of portraying it. There is a marketing reason to have the aspect ratio be more rectangular than square, and that is that is allows smaller monitors to be advertized at the same size. For example: a 4:3 aspect monitor at 24" would be 276.5 square inches, while a 16:9 aspect monitor at 24" would be 246.6 square inches. This saves the companies 11% of the material it would take to make a 4:3 aspect ratio 24" monitor and they use it as a selling point. (Since the 24" widescreen monitor is smaller than the 24" standard screen monitor.)

You can letter box either monitor, so your point isn't valid about being able to keep an aspect ratio with one and not the other. The only difference would be where you would put the letter boxes.

This is elementary mathematics and I know that very well. However, that was not the point I was making. A 20" 4:3 has 1200 pixels of height and can accommodate a fixed number or lines using font A. A 24" 16:10 monitor has also 1200 pixes of height and can accommodate the same number of lines using the same font. Now, the next higher 4:3 standard resolution is the 2048x1536 one - should you need that many lines, you can get a 2560x1600 widescreen LCD and have roughly the same number of lines. And the only difference between those scenarios is that the widescreen monitors offer you more horizontal space, while offering the same vertical pixel height. So you get at least as many lines (which is what people care about it seems) but are given more space on the sides, pixel-wise. For the ultimate reading experience, you might take a 2560x1600 monitor and tilt it 90 degrees - bam, 1600 pixels wide and 2560 pixels high. The physical size is similar, but it's the pixels that count imo. And this is what I was talking about.

The price, true, widescreen monitors are more common and people buy them. Why? Obviously millions around the globe weren't tricked into buying them - those monitors offer a better experience imo Not to mention this is the trend in entertainment :)
 

shangshang

Senior member
May 17, 2008
830
0
0
4:3 ratio screens are going the way of the CRT screens which had gone the way of the Dodo birds.

There are still those who claim to be hardcore gamers and lamenting the loss of the virtues of a CRT, but there is nothing they can do about it except to accept reality.
 

fuzzymath10

Senior member
Feb 17, 2010
520
2
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My main concern is resolution. In 2003 15.4" 16:10 laptop monitors were coming out and you could get 1920x1200 (I settled for 1680x1050). Now it is unlikely that most people are going to get a monitor with more than 1080 vertical pixels since 1920x1080 looks to be the practical maximum, and many have 1366x768. 16:10 was about perfect, and now it is generally available only in higher end displays.
 

Phil1977

Senior member
Dec 8, 2009
228
0
0
16" notebooks tend to have Full HD options.

15" notebooks usually only give you 1600 x 900 max.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
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That's basically what I'm saying. Although I think your how many screens can be cut from a piece of glass is bit simplified. Sure you can cut less screens if you use larger screen size, but you can also price them higher. 25" monitor costs more than 22" even if they have the same resolution. It also doesn't account for defect rate which is reflected in the DPI. That is the higher the DPI the greater the chance of defects.

Most people have been satisfied with the DPI in 20" LCDs with 1600 x 1200. Companies can get essentially the same DPI with a larger 22" screen and sell it more easily and usually at a higher cost. Since the DPI is the same and the panel is only marginally larger the company has essentially the same manufacturing cost. Historically however they have been making 1680 x 1050 panels which have a lower DPI and thus a lower manufacturing cost which makes the proposition even better.
Unfortunately few consumers care about DPI and are getting larger and larger monitors with worse and worse DPI. Otherwise we'd be seeing more widescreen panels with a DPI like my old though still great SGI 1600sw with 1600x1024 pixels within a 17.3" screen.

yup
cept for the last bit. prices are being driven way way down. it wasn't long ago that lcds were very expensive, now a 24" is under 200 bucks. soon size will be adequate for most usages and then the dpi will begin to improve. its simply about price, many many low end laptops these days still use horrible 1440x900 type screens, so even there at super low price points something has to give, but the nicer are always an option.
 

blanketyblank

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2007
1,149
0
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yup
cept for the last bit. prices are being driven way way down. it wasn't long ago that lcds were very expensive, now a 24" is under 200 bucks. soon size will be adequate for most usages and then the dpi will begin to improve. its simply about price, many many low end laptops these days still use horrible 1440x900 type screens, so even there at super low price points something has to give, but the nicer are always an option.

True prices are getting better, but a 24" a few years ago was usually a much nicer PVA screen at resolutions of 1920x1200. Now a sub $200 24" is likely 1920 x 1080 in a TN screen. I disagree that DPI will improve any time soon since the next big thing seems to be frequency since it's a nice easy number to throw onto these things 120Hz, 240Hz, etc... plus they can now combine that with "3d".
 

Phil1977

Senior member
Dec 8, 2009
228
0
0
Agree with you on Hz and 3D...

Full HD will be "it" for the next few years. I don't seen any higher resolutions for the mainstram market.

120Hz and higher is something manufacturers can use to sell new LCDs.

But the real change will be back light. LED backlight will be featured in most new models this year.