Why AIG got billions and GM got nothing...

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: misle
According to my grandfather, who retired from GM, his pension is (and possibly all GM pensions are) insured by AIG. So if GM goes out, AIG may be stuck paying lots of GM pensions.

I don't know about the AIG connection, but if GM goes under the pensions become an albatross around the neck of the PBGC. The fund is projected to be 12 to 14 Billion underfunded for calendar year 2008. AIG may be handling the investment of those monies, but I can't imagine them assuming any obligation related to their disbursement.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW DID rejected the proposal bailout, right? So how can you insist that it has nothing to do with UAW?

no, the UAW refused to take MORE paycuts... actually i believe the dumbass southern republicans wanted the UAW to take more paycuts, and sooner... the UAW has ALREADY taken SIGNIFICANT reductions in pay... their agreements this year were unbelievable to many people..

the southern repubs want the UAW gone, so that more people will send them money so they can build more plants down south, kill the north for the south is what is going on.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.

If you'd watched the news today, you'd now how that all really shook down. In a nutshell it became apparent to certain members of Congress that there is in fact parity in wages. In fact Toyota in the US pays their people more than the domestics do.

 

[Xellos2099]

Hmm, exactly how much paycut are we talking about here? According to http://washingtonindependent.c...ans-oppose-the-bailout, it seems like nonunion worker get pay around 20-26 while union workers got pay 28. If all the senate wanted is to have union worker got pay around as the nonunion, the pay difference is not all that great unless the union worker got pay way more than 28 per hour after consideration for future benefit.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Hmm, exactly how much paycut are we talking about here? According to http://washingtonindependent.c...ans-oppose-the-bailout, it seems like nonunion worker get pay around 20-26 while union workers got pay 28. If all the senate wanted is to have union worker got pay around as the nonunion, the pay difference is not all that great unless the union worker got pay way more than 28 per hour after consideration for future benefit.

dont forget differences in cost of living in northern states vs southern states.

 

[Xellos2099]

I won't believe the news all that much if I am you. After all, most news network support democrat, democrat support Union and buy vote with OPM (Other People's Money). I mean, Obama want to made union vote an open ballot a law instead of close ballot that we have now.

 

[MikeMike]

ah, the funny thing is im a republican.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.

Everyone should work for $1 a year at the Big-3.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.

Everyone should work for $1 a year at the Big-3.

Just think of the benefits to the nation if everyone worked for that wage for a year. Be a trend setter and lead by example!

 

[Xellos2099]

The world doesn't need more union. No...The world is much better off without union as the union's ideology nowadays are no longer the the union that was when the railroad ans steel workers found it. Back then it was found to combat the employers who doesn't provide safe work environment and pay slave wages. Nowadays all the union want is more influence and more money. The worst union are the one found in public sector.

For example, CTA, Chicago Transit Association, use cut throat tactic to get more money from the state government and even more fare increase while the price of the gas has drop almost 50% from its peak price. CTA's union dictate many rules that are quite unreasonable. For one, CTA are not allowed to hire part time drivers to protect the"interest" of the full time workers. It would be an excellent cost cutting method but union won't allow it.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
I won't believe the news all that much if I am you. After all, most news network support democrat, democrat support Union and buy vote with OPM (Other People's Money). I mean, Obama want to made union vote an open ballot a law instead of close ballot that we have now.

Don't believe what you read here either. It's rumored that Democrats lurk about here too.

 

[Xellos2099]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.

Everyone should work for $1 a year at the Big-3.

Just think of the benefits to the nation if everyone worked for that wage for a year. Be a trend setter and lead by example!

I am not saying they should get pay 1 dollar a hour, but if the CEO are willing to take serious paycut, why couldn't the union worker do the same?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.

Everyone should work for $1 a year at the Big-3.

Just think of the benefits to the nation if everyone worked for that wage for a year. Be a trend setter and lead by example!

I will be working for $0 after Feb. 09 (leaving job voluntarily). What about you?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.

Everyone should work for $1 a year at the Big-3.

Just think of the benefits to the nation if everyone worked for that wage for a year. Be a trend setter and lead by example!

I am not saying they should get pay 1 dollar a hour, but if the CEO are willing to take serious paycut, why couldn't the union worker do the same?

Change begins at the top.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Here's what I posted in another thread but since it is relevant to the topic I am posting it here too

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Here some more info on the GOP strategy from TPM

What Happened

A quick update from a knowledgeable source who works in that big building with the dome ...

I don't think it'll be hard to explain why Senate Republicans had the final say: that's what the Constitution and Senate rules require. How else would we have passed anything?

I do think it'll be hard for Senate Republicans to explain themselves.

They were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House. They declined.

They were asked to provide an alternative bill. They refused.

Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut. But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.

Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.

Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.

Also from MSNBC

GOP: 'Action Alert - Auto Bailout'
Countdown has obtained a memo entitled "Action Alert - Auto Bailout," and sent Wednesday at 9:12am, to Senate Republicans. The names of the sender(s) and recipient(s) have been redacted in the copy Countdown obtained. The Los Angeles Times reported that it was circulated among Senate Republicans. The brief memo outlines internal political strategy on the bailout, including the view that defeating the bailout represents a "first shot against organized labor." Senate Republicans blocked passage of the bailout late Thursday night, over its insistence on an immediate union pay cut. See the entire memo after the jump.

From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.

Basically confirms what I have been saying. That the R senators who doomed the loan to the auto co's were about union busting rather than any rational opposition. It was all about ideology and perhaps striking a blow at traditional Democratic supporters.

They would happily let a domestic owned manufacturing base die to gain a few political points.

I hope the American public sees through their games.

 

[BansheeX]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...s-usnews-13819339.html

I hate everything with our government, they bailout the friends, and then basically want to dismantle our entire economy. It doesnt matter if the banks can loan if no one has a job...

Would the entire financial system have collapsed if AIG were allowed to utterly fail, creating dozens of GM's within months?

YES!

And you act like that isn't what needs to happen to become a truly viable economy again. Withdrawal is the solution, the problem was the high that preceded it. You can't shoot yourself up again to solve the problem. All you're doing is trying to delay the inevitable by continuously redistributing wealth from good businesses to shitty ones. GM and anyone like them should file Chapter 11, that would bring the good assets under new management, management chosen by someone risking their own money, not a politician risking someone else's.

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation.

I wish I could get a big 3 CEO compensation package at any wage. Hell, I'd pay a million dollars for one of their compensation packages and still come out ahead.

In 2007, GM's CEO's salary was a paltry $2.2 million. In addition, he got 75,000 restricted stock units valued at $1.68 million and stock options on 500,000 shares. His package totaled over $14 million. Ford's CEO's salary in 2007 was a paltry $2 million. He also got a $4 million bonus and more than $11 million in stock and options.

A $1 wage is meaningless if the rest of the CEO compensation package is in the millions. And that's before you add in the cars, travel, expense accounts, health benefits, etc...

 

[Zebo]

When will these guys understand when a country doesn?t make anything it doesn?t need a financial sector as there is nothing to finance. No new businesses, no factories, no nothing banana republic. 25 or even 100 billion to the automakers will seem cheap should they go under and take all those jobs with them. Estimated at 3 million and directly 1,000,000 former and current UAW employees will hit the governments Pension Insurance Fund instead for ~50K each times a million is 50 billion dollars right there the govt will HAVE to pay out, EVERY YEAR!!! 50 Billion dollars!!! I'd estimate those estimates are low and really about 10 million jobs will be lost nation wide should they go under definitely spiraling into another great depression, oh, and taking the bailed out banking sector with them. Talk about a waste of money.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: BansheeX

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...s-usnews-13819339.html

I hate everything with our government, they bailout the friends, and then basically want to dismantle our entire economy. It doesnt matter if the banks can loan if no one has a job...

Would the entire financial system have collapsed if AIG were allowed to utterly fail, creating dozens of GM's within months?

YES!

And you act like that isn't what needs to happen to become a truly viable economy again. Withdrawal is the solution, the problem was the high that preceded it. You can't shoot yourself up again to solve the problem. All you're doing is trying to delay the inevitable by continuously redistributing wealth from good businesses to shitty ones. GM and anyone like them should file Chapter 11, that would bring the good assets under new management, management chosen by someone risking their own money, not a politician risking someone else's.

And complete withdrawal is very dangerous and can kill the patient, which is why they normally wean the addict off slowly by giving them a derivative of the drug.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Of course it is UAW problem. You don't see company like Toyota, Honda, or Volvo in deep finance trouble like the big 3 domestic car company, which just so happen none of the three company have union workers. While the big 3 have union workers. Do you want to tell me it is just happen by chance that the the auto company that hire union fail while the one who doesn't hire union worker have no problem?

Toyota and Honda are both heavily unionized in Japan. IIRC, Toyota has nearly as many union members in Japan as GM has in the US. Volvo is owned by Ford.

Basically, you're an idiot.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Zebo
When will these guys understand when a country doesn?t make anything it doesn?t need a financial sector as there is nothing to finance.

No new businesses, no factories, no nothing banana republic.

25 or even 100 billion to the automakers will seem cheap should they go under and take all those jobs with them.

Estimated at 3 million and directly 1,000,000 former and current UAW employees will hit the governments Pension Insurance Fund instead for ~50K each times a million is 50 billion dollars right there the govt will HAVE to pay out, EVERY YEAR!!! 50 Billion dollars!!!

I'd estimate those estimates are low and really about 10 million jobs will be lost nation wide should they go under definitely spiraling into another great depression, oh, and taking the bailed out banking sector with them.

Someone does read my threads & posts :shocked: :thumbsup:

 

[Zebo]

Oh and y'all taking about chapter 11 are nuts as well since the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp e.g. the government and thus the tax payers will have to pay the pension for ~ 1,000,000 UAW members instead if the bankruptcy judge alleviates Big 3 from their pension overcommitments which of course he will since that's the whole reason for filing ala United Airlines. Instead of costing say 32 billion for one bailout and keeping big 3 feet to fire you're talking about 50 billion every year until these guys start dying off then it will go down. The math does not work but way to stick to free market principle.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Here's what I posted in another thread but since it is relevant to the topic I am posting it here too

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Here some more info on the GOP strategy from TPM

What Happened

A quick update from a knowledgeable source who works in that big building with the dome ...

I don't think it'll be hard to explain why Senate Republicans had the final say: that's what the Constitution and Senate rules require. How else would we have passed anything?

I do think it'll be hard for Senate Republicans to explain themselves.

They were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House. They declined.

They were asked to provide an alternative bill. They refused.

Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut. But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.

Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.

Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.

Also from MSNBC

GOP: 'Action Alert - Auto Bailout'
Countdown has obtained a memo entitled "Action Alert - Auto Bailout," and sent Wednesday at 9:12am, to Senate Republicans. The names of the sender(s) and recipient(s) have been redacted in the copy Countdown obtained. The Los Angeles Times reported that it was circulated among Senate Republicans. The brief memo outlines internal political strategy on the bailout, including the view that defeating the bailout represents a "first shot against organized labor." Senate Republicans blocked passage of the bailout late Thursday night, over its insistence on an immediate union pay cut. See the entire memo after the jump.

From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.

Basically confirms what I have been saying. That the R senators who doomed the loan to the auto co's were about union busting rather than any rational opposition. It was all about ideology and perhaps striking a blow at traditional Democratic supporters.


They would happily let a domestic owned manufacturing base die to gain a few political points.

I hope the American public sees through their games.

QFT.:thumbsup:

This is an enormous opportunity for the Repubs to crush the UAW, and they are not going to let this chance go by without a lot of bloodletting on the Dem's side. I wonder how many UAW members and others who voted republican based on gun rights, abortion etc. and not on how they were going to feed their kids and pay the mortgage are now looking at losing their jobs, their pensions and any hope of a secure subsistence level retirement.

The Repubs are the ones that will be directly responsible for ruining millions of livelihoods in order to crush the unions.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: tweaker2
This is an enormous opportunity for the Repubs to crush the UAW, and they are not going to let this chance go by without a lot of bloodletting on the Dem's side.

I wonder how many UAW members and others who voted republican based on gun rights, abortion etc. and not on how they were going to feed their kids and pay the mortgage are now looking at losing their jobs, their pensions and any hope of a secure subsistence level retirement.

The Repubs are the ones that will be directly responsible for ruining millions of livelihoods in order to crush the unions.

Hey, they knew they were going to lose this general and have done a great job with their 8 year agenda of ruining America so may as well finsish the job right.

 

[Zebo]

The ultimate goal may be to bankrupt govt which isnt a bad plan if you're interested in a dystopia where social class is strictly defined and enforced and social mobility is non-existent. About 1% of Americans, the elite, relish such an event being all powerful, forever, hereditary, and unaccountable. . And what better way to bring it about than spend money so you get most of it (military no bid contracts, banker bailouts) while at the same time strangling social spending for the rabble ultimately bankrupting govt so even federal employee unions are broken.