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Who's watching over who's watching over you?

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Former NSA analyst, Russell Tice, is blowing more than whistles. He's blowing the cover off of the Bushwhackos' illegal surveillance of American citizens' personal communictions, and it's worse than anything that has previously come to light.

There are two parts to this story. Start with Brian Ross' report on ABC, following. Then, watch Keith Olbemann's interview with Mr. Tice for further disclosures of the depth to which our thankfully EX Traitor In Chief and his gang of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals sank in perverting the rights once guaranteed to every American citizen by our once great, once honored Constitution.

NSA Whistleblower Alleges Illegal Spying
Former Employee Admits to Being a Source for The New York Times

By BRIAN ROSS


Jan. 10, 2006

Russell Tice, a longtime insider at the National Security Agency, is now a whistleblower the agency would like to keep quiet.

For 20 years, Tice worked in the shadows as he helped the United States spy on other people's conversations around the world.

"I specialized in what's called special access programs," Tice said of his job. "We called them 'black world' programs and operations."

But now, Tice tells ABC News that some of those secret "black world" operations run by the NSA were operated in ways that he believes violated the law. He is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department and the NSA in the post-9/11 efforts to go after terrorists.

"The mentality was we need to get these guys, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get them," he said.

Tracking Calls

Tice says the technology exists to track and sort through every domestic and international phone call as they are switched through centers, such as one in New York, and to search for key words or phrases that a terrorist might use.

"If you picked the word 'jihad' out of a conversation," Tice said, "the technology exists that you focus in on that conversation, and you pull it out of the system for processing."

According to Tice, intelligence analysts use the information to develop graphs that resemble spiderwebs linking one suspect's phone number to hundreds or even thousands more.

Tice Admits Being a Source for The New York Times

President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants.

But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

"That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.

The same day The New York Times broke the story of the NSA eavesdropping without warrants, Tice surfaced as a whistleblower in the agency. He told ABC News that he was a source for the Times' reporters. But Tice maintains that his conscience is clear.

"As far as I'm concerned, as long as I don't say anything that's classified, I'm not worried," he said. "We need to clean up the intelligence community. We've had abuses, and they need to be addressed."

The NSA revoked Tice's security clearance in May of last year based on what it called psychological concerns and later dismissed him. Tice calls that bunk and says that's the way the NSA deals with troublemakers and whistleblowers. Today the NSA said it had "no information to provide."

ABC News' Vic Walter and Avni Patel contributed to this report.

This is exactly why I wrote Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?. Believe me, I wish I hadn't been so right. I wish they hadn't been so wrong. I don't care if you don't like my singing, playing or writing. Your petty insults don't mean shit until you can deal with the fact that your EX-Traitor In Chief and his gang of miscreants really committed these crimes all of us. 🙁

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And who's watching over who's watching over you?
Tell me who's telling who's telling you what to do what to do?
 
But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

He states the worst case potential. He does not state that it was used.
 
This man is a traitor going public with NSA secrets. If you want to end it, do it closed door, there is dirty laundry the world does not need to see. But to compromise the ability of the NSA to monitor communications outside of the USA because you had a moral awakening is inexcusable.

Glad to see he grows a pair after Bush leaves.
 
Ha. I must have been under surveillance because I would freak my friends out by saying all sorts of keywords over cellphone.
 
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

He states the worst case potential. He does not state that it was used.

See Olbermann's interview for more... MUCH more. :shocked:

That was on, today. I think Tice is returning to the show for more, tomorrow.
 
Looks like a lot of smoke and no fire. "Could." "More than likely." Meh. Sounds like he's making wild guesses instead of bringing anything concrete to the table. But he'll likely get his 15 minutes of fame and adoration from the usual unhinged suspects as if this is some sort of 'WOW!' revelation.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
This man is a traitor going public with NSA secrets. If you want to end it, do it closed door, there is dirty laundry the world does not need to see. But to compromise the ability of the NSA to monitor communications outside of the USA because you had a moral awakening is inexcusable.

Glad to see he grows a pair after Bush leaves.
The public have the right to know what its employees doing behind its back. Behind closed doors has gotten the US into invading Iraq and death to 100 of thousands foreigner and American, and it is also a main contribution to the economic quagmire that the US is in at the moment.
 
So this is what we are going to get for the next 4 years? Obama can fix all of this. Start holding him responsible. And stop quoting your song.. it makes you look silly.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
This is exactly why I wrote Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?. Believe me, I wish I hadn't been so right. I wish they hadn't been so wrong. I don't care if you don't like my singing, playing or writing. Your petty insults don't mean shit until you can deal with the fact that your EX-Traitor In Chief and his gang of miscreants really committed these crimes all of us. 🙁



Not a big fan of the arrangement, but you can sing. Your voice reminds of someone who I can't place atm.. it's like Bob Weir/Steve Winwood and a smidge of Michael Bolton, just kidding 😛
 
Originally posted by: NoShangriLa
Originally posted by: RichardE
This man is a traitor going public with NSA secrets. If you want to end it, do it closed door, there is dirty laundry the world does not need to see. But to compromise the ability of the NSA to monitor communications outside of the USA because you had a moral awakening is inexcusable.

Glad to see he grows a pair after Bush leaves.
The public have the right to know what its employees doing behind its back. Behind closed doors has gotten the US into invading Iraq and death to 100 of thousands foreigner and American, and it is also a main contribution to the economic quagmire that the US is in at the moment.

Why not just print every possible military move made in the papers so the public knows?
What you know the enemy knows, sad how many people forget this, there is a reason for state secrets, it isn't to just dominate the populace but they are needed to protect the populace.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Former NSA analyst, Russell Tice, is blowing more than whistles. He's blowing the cover off of the Bushwhackos' illegal surveillance of American citizens' personal communictions, and it's worse than anything that has previously come to light.

There are two parts to this story. Start with Brian Ross' report on ABC, following. Then, watch Keith Olbemann's interview with Mr. Tice for further disclosures of the depth to which our thankfully EX Traitor In Chief and his gang of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals sank in perverting the rights once guaranteed to every American citizen by our once great, once honored Constitution.

NSA Whistleblower Alleges Illegal Spying
Former Employee Admits to Being a Source for The New York Times

By BRIAN ROSS


Jan. 10, 2006

Russell Tice, a longtime insider at the National Security Agency, is now a whistleblower the agency would like to keep quiet.

For 20 years, Tice worked in the shadows as he helped the United States spy on other people's conversations around the world.

"I specialized in what's called special access programs," Tice said of his job. "We called them 'black world' programs and operations."

But now, Tice tells ABC News that some of those secret "black world" operations run by the NSA were operated in ways that he believes violated the law. He is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department and the NSA in the post-9/11 efforts to go after terrorists.

"The mentality was we need to get these guys, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get them," he said.

Tracking Calls

Tice says the technology exists to track and sort through every domestic and international phone call as they are switched through centers, such as one in New York, and to search for key words or phrases that a terrorist might use.

"If you picked the word 'jihad' out of a conversation," Tice said, "the technology exists that you focus in on that conversation, and you pull it out of the system for processing."

According to Tice, intelligence analysts use the information to develop graphs that resemble spiderwebs linking one suspect's phone number to hundreds or even thousands more.

Tice Admits Being a Source for The New York Times

President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants.

But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

"That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.

The same day The New York Times broke the story of the NSA eavesdropping without warrants, Tice surfaced as a whistleblower in the agency. He told ABC News that he was a source for the Times' reporters. But Tice maintains that his conscience is clear.

"As far as I'm concerned, as long as I don't say anything that's classified, I'm not worried," he said. "We need to clean up the intelligence community. We've had abuses, and they need to be addressed."

The NSA revoked Tice's security clearance in May of last year based on what it called psychological concerns and later dismissed him. Tice calls that bunk and says that's the way the NSA deals with troublemakers and whistleblowers. Today the NSA said it had "no information to provide."

ABC News' Vic Walter and Avni Patel contributed to this report.

This is exactly why I wrote Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?. Believe me, I wish I hadn't been so right. I wish they hadn't been so wrong. I don't care if you don't like my singing, playing or writing. Your petty insults don't mean shit until you can deal with the fact that your EX-Traitor In Chief and his gang of miscreants really committed these crimes all of us. 🙁

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And who's watching over who's watching over you?
Tell me who's telling who's telling you what to do what to do?
What do you think the motive was for committing the alleged crimes?
 
Predictably, the GWB defenders come out to poo poo the now undeniable facts that show GWB&co were illegally abusing their powers. I suspect their denial will not be able to keep pace with all the new disclosures that will later come out and we learn more about those abuses. These are just the first trickles in what I expect to become a flood. The real question is will people involved be criminally prosecuted at some later date? And then it may become hard to logically justify prosecuting the low level people who carried out the orders without going up the food chain and getting the key people in GWB&co who gave the orders.

And its also hard to understand how GWB&co could spend so much time and effort on surveillance and then be totally blind to the rip offs of Madoff and being blind about the impending financial meltdown.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Predictably, the GWB defenders come out to poo poo the now undeniable facts that show GWB&co were illegally abusing their powers. I suspect their denial will not be able to keep pace with all the new disclosures that will later come out and we learn more about those abuses. These are just the first trickles in what I expect to become a flood. The real question is will people involved be criminally prosecuted at some later date? And then it may become hard to logically justify prosecuting the low level people who carried out the orders without going up the food chain and getting the key people in GWB&co who gave the orders.

And its also hard to understand how GWB&co could spend so much time and effort on surveillance and then be totally blind to the rip offs of Madoff and being blind about the impending financial meltdown.

Maybe because they weren't listening to the phone calls of average citizens like everyone claims? Obviously you have more interest in demonizing Bush than actually having Obama fix things.
 
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Harvey
Former NSA analyst, Russell Tice, is blowing more than whistles. He's blowing the cover off of the Bushwhackos' illegal surveillance of American citizens' personal communictions, and it's worse than anything that has previously come to light.

There are two parts to this story. Start with Brian Ross' report on ABC, following. Then, watch Keith Olbemann's interview with Mr. Tice for further disclosures of the depth to which our thankfully EX Traitor In Chief and his gang of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals sank in perverting the rights once guaranteed to every American citizen by our once great, once honored Constitution.

NSA Whistleblower Alleges Illegal Spying
Former Employee Admits to Being a Source for The New York Times

By BRIAN ROSS


Jan. 10, 2006

Russell Tice, a longtime insider at the National Security Agency, is now a whistleblower the agency would like to keep quiet.

For 20 years, Tice worked in the shadows as he helped the United States spy on other people's conversations around the world.

"I specialized in what's called special access programs," Tice said of his job. "We called them 'black world' programs and operations."

But now, Tice tells ABC News that some of those secret "black world" operations run by the NSA were operated in ways that he believes violated the law. He is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department and the NSA in the post-9/11 efforts to go after terrorists.

"The mentality was we need to get these guys, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get them," he said.

Tracking Calls

Tice says the technology exists to track and sort through every domestic and international phone call as they are switched through centers, such as one in New York, and to search for key words or phrases that a terrorist might use.

"If you picked the word 'jihad' out of a conversation," Tice said, "the technology exists that you focus in on that conversation, and you pull it out of the system for processing."

According to Tice, intelligence analysts use the information to develop graphs that resemble spiderwebs linking one suspect's phone number to hundreds or even thousands more.

Tice Admits Being a Source for The New York Times

President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants.

But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

"That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.

The same day The New York Times broke the story of the NSA eavesdropping without warrants, Tice surfaced as a whistleblower in the agency. He told ABC News that he was a source for the Times' reporters. But Tice maintains that his conscience is clear.

"As far as I'm concerned, as long as I don't say anything that's classified, I'm not worried," he said. "We need to clean up the intelligence community. We've had abuses, and they need to be addressed."

The NSA revoked Tice's security clearance in May of last year based on what it called psychological concerns and later dismissed him. Tice calls that bunk and says that's the way the NSA deals with troublemakers and whistleblowers. Today the NSA said it had "no information to provide."

ABC News' Vic Walter and Avni Patel contributed to this report.

This is exactly why I wrote Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?. Believe me, I wish I hadn't been so right. I wish they hadn't been so wrong. I don't care if you don't like my singing, playing or writing. Your petty insults don't mean shit until you can deal with the fact that your EX-Traitor In Chief and his gang of miscreants really committed these crimes all of us. 🙁

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And who's watching over who's watching over you?
Tell me who's telling who's telling you what to do what to do?
What do you think the motive was for committing the alleged crimes?
And, what do you think the motive was for being a "source" ?
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: NoShangriLa
Originally posted by: RichardE
This man is a traitor going public with NSA secrets. If you want to end it, do it closed door, there is dirty laundry the world does not need to see. But to compromise the ability of the NSA to monitor communications outside of the USA because you had a moral awakening is inexcusable.

Glad to see he grows a pair after Bush leaves.
The public have the right to know what its employees doing behind its back. Behind closed doors has gotten the US into invading Iraq and death to 100 of thousands foreigner and American, and it is also a main contribution to the economic quagmire that the US is in at the moment.

Why not just print every possible military move made in the papers so the public knows?
What you know the enemy knows, sad how many people forget this, there is a reason for state secrets, it isn't to just dominate the populace but they are needed to protect the populace.

You are such an irrational person. Revealing criminality by the government = revealing every legitimate secret the government has. That doesn't even deserve "straw man".

The people who expose wrongdoing are heroes, and we need them in this day and age where the power and technology structure creates great risk for violating rights.

It's somewhat analgous to another American hero, Daniel Ellsberg and his co-leaker.

As for your comment about when he blew the whistle not being until Bush left office:

The same day The New York Times broke the story of the NSA eavesdropping without warrants, Tice surfaced as a whistleblower in the agency. He told ABC News that he was a source for the Times' reporters.

Why don't you grow a pair and stand up for our civil rights instead of being a coward trading liberties for alleged security and deserving neither (a la Ben Franklin)?
 
Originally posted by: Ozoned
What do you think the motive was for committing the alleged crimes?

Obtaining information about possible attacks, and exercising their ideology of the 'unitary presidency'. That doesn't change the fact that it's criminal any more than police officers who go around doing illegal break-ins or planting evidence on suspected crimnals would not be criminal. If your position is based on it being someone else's rights violated and not yours, you're both foolish and immoral. 'Why do you hate the rule of law?'
 
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
So this is what we are going to get for the next 4 years? Obama can fix all of this. Start holding him responsible. And stop quoting your song.. it makes you look silly.
I asked Harvey in another thread what he was going to do when the democrat president & congress don't try Bush & Co for their "crimes" (and hence become complicit in them). He of course ignored the question 🙂

 
This all fits perfectly with what we already know about the warrantless wiretapping/spying on Americans by the NSA. They effectively filter through all data and voice traffic that goes in or out of the country, sifting for keywords and monitoring flagged individuals. It's why they couldn't go through the FISA court for any of this, because they'd effectively need millions of warrants simultaneously and countless new warrants would be needed on the fly as new targets placed overseas calls.
 
Tice's claims, under the current law and the August 2008 FISC ruling, represent activities that are explicitly legal.

The FISA Amendments Act of 2008, passed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, allows for foreign intelligence collection on non-US Persons without a warrant, no matter where the collection occurs. The longstanding Smith v. Maryland, 442 US 735 (1979), allows for the collection and examination of communications metadata, i.e., "to" and "from" information, without a warrant. The FISC ruling explicitly finds legal such collection under the now-sunset Protect America Act and, thus, the current FISA Amendments Act of 2008.

In order to determine which traffic content may be collected for foreign intelligence purposes, the traffic metadata must be examined. Even when a target in question is a specific non-US Person of foreign intelligence interest, traffic metadata must first be examined in order to target that person! Because examining traffic metadata was found explicitly legal and Constitutional three decades ago by the United States Supreme Court, doing so in order to target legitimate foreign intelligence collection is allowable under the law.

The major issues for foreign SIGINT were twofold:

- A lot of traffic is now digital versus analog, and cannot be targeted by aiming a directional antenna at a particular geographic locale. It is now traveling largely via things like fiber optic cables, intermixed with all manner of other communications. In order to target the collection, it is no longer a case of sitting on a Navy vessel offshore from some area of interest between individuals talking on two-way radios; it's finding that traffic in a sea of global digital communications.

- Foreign communications of non-US Persons physically outside of the US was increasingly traveling through the US. Previously fair game for foreign intelligence collection throughout the history of such collection in the United States, it suddenly became off-limits without a warrant because it was incidentally routed through locations in the United States. Foreign intelligence collection on non-US Persons outside of the US does not require a warrant, and fundamentally still shouldn't simply because their traffic happens to enter the US.

This was a case of changing technology necessitating an update to a law. A supermajority of both houses of Congress agreed.

Unfortunately, this discussion is so mired in politics, personal grinding of axes, confusion about early NSA programs (like the so-called Terrorist Surveillance Program, or TSP, which was not renewed after January 2007), and isolated examples of legitimate abuse or misconduct, that not many seem interested in having any real discussion about how foreign intelligence can be reasonably conducted in the digital age. Instead it is a sea of frantic arm-waving and breathless blogging about how the Constitution is being shredded, when the mechanisms of law and judicial oversight have explicitly established the activities as legal.

Ironically, Tice's interview is spot-on. He says, "What was done was sort of an ability to look at the metadata ... and ferret that information to determine what communications would ultimately be collected," and adds, "we looked at organizations, just supposedly so that we would not target them."

"Supposedly?"

That's the whole point. So here's an example of someone explaining more or less what is happening, namely, that traffic metadata is examined to determine whether or not it constitutes a foreign intelligence target, and that measures were undertaken to not intercept the content of communications of entities which are not legitimate targets, even before the legal situation was clarified. None of the news coverage or associated debate seems able to make the connection that this activity is exactly what is described is explicitly legal under:

- The temporary Protect America Act of 2007, which was in force from August 5, 2007 to February 17, 2008,
- The FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which became Public Law 110-261 on July 10, 2008, and is in force at present,
- The FISC ruling

The cornerstone of the current law and the FISC decision is the protection of the privacy and rights of United States persons. The current law is even more stringent with respect to US Persons than previous law: an individualized warrant from FISC is required to target a US Person anywhere on the globe; before, US Persons did not enjoy the same explicit protections under the law outside of the US.

What monitors this? The same oversight and processes that we trust, by proxy, to monitor the activities of the Intelligence Community. Namely,

- The intelligence oversight committees of both houses of Congress
- Legal counsel for all Intelligence Community components
- The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
- The Department of Justice
- The Executive Branch

In fact, FISA Modernization is listed as the number one major milestone of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence under the tenure of Mike McConnell.

In sum:

1. A warrant is not required to collect intelligence when the target is not a US Person, regardless of where the collection occurs, including within the US.

2. A warrant is always required to collect intelligence when the target is a US Person, whether inside or outside of the US (more strict than previous law).

3. This requires determining which traffic content can be lawfully collected without a warrant, sometimes with the assistance of telecom operators in the US. In order to determine which traffic can be lawfully collected without a warrant, basic information about the traffic, such as its source and destination, must also be examined. Such examination of traffic ? a "pen register" ? also does not require a warrant.

The job of our foreign intelligence services is to collect information on the activities and plans of US adversaries. This activity has never required a warrant, because non-US Persons outside of the US are not protected by the Constitution of the United States.

The path traffic takes shouldn't prevent us from doing this job.

I wonder if anyone in the media is interested in having this discussion, or if it's all going to be accusations from whistleblowers, with no consideration of the associated challenges for foreign SIGINT in a digital world?

I also wonder what it's called when you "blow the whistle" on legal activity...?
 
Funny how nobody seemed to care when Bush was in power. Did he muzzle these people? Do we think this will change with Obama. Power usually given to government doesn't seem to be given back. Atleast not covertly.

 
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