Part of the problem lies in the fact that our society has moved to helping ensure a student's feeling are more important that what he or she has learned. Can't fail little Johnny if it's going to stunt his emotional growth.
Part of the problem lies in the fact that our society has moved to helping ensure a student's feeling are more important that what he or she has learned. Can't fail little Johnny if it's going to stunt his emotional growth.
Dr. Zaus
Lifer
- Oct 16, 2008
- 11,764
- 347
- 126
Again from freekanomics:
the population pool from which teaching drew used to be women; and the jobs women could take where socially limited, mostly, to teaching and nursing.
That means that all the smart, motivated, women out there were forced to take jobs that paid much less than they were worth simply because they had to go into only one or the other.
Now we have women much more socially accepted at all levels, which allows that very smart very dedicated person who was going to be a teacher and make 40k a year to become a lawyer and make 100k a year.
qualitative assessments of skill and ability that do not hurt or help the teachers or the school;
The whole system should be based on what you need to learn, not how old you are and passing should be based on fulfilling the requirements of learning not a bunch of homework/test.
yes, the MCAT can be gamed just like every other test;
I took the GMAT blind, got a 680 (90th percentile) i spent a little bit studying HOW to take the test and I got a 750(98th percentile); seeing as how it's supposed to be a normal curve the distance between the two is nearly 1 standard deviation!
you are right; the whole system is flawed.. this is just one key example of how filling in scan-trons make no sense when you want to understand someone's level of understanding.
Education has drastically changed since you went to school and I went to school and it's even different now than it was 10 years ago. Shit has changed for the WORST in the USA. Hell look up the changes on education in the UK and the USA due to feminist influences and you'll see just a small thing that has changed things for the worst.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
To Red Dawn,
Yes and no. There have always been problems with our education system. Hell they all have flaws as no system can be perfect. That doesn't mean that the system should not strive to continually improve itself. Part of the flaws with education, and teaching specifically, is that no two teachers and no two students are alike. This means figuring the best way to teach what you can with what you have. And that will always change. It is just recently the education system is getting more and more into the media spotlight because of federal intervention. Part of it is because how we compare to other systems around the world. We aren't that great at teaching our kids and we continually get worse year after year when measured up to some other countries. This is also because the world now is a "smaller" place and we can now compare how well our students do to say kids of Serbia, or Spain, or Nigeria. 20+ years ago, people around here would have been like, "Who gives a fuck how our kids compare to those from Switzerland?" That is never the attitude one must take when trying to teach kids.
As far as the original study, the article was pure "duh" for me. However, it did bring up a really nice memory of a movie I used to watch a long time ago. It was called Stand and Deliver, but it was about a group of high school Latinos in an impoverished area not well known for smart students. Basically a run down school, for run down kids who were basically thugs. One teacher started teaching math there and managed to not only bring a up group of "thugs" up from basic algebra, but taught them all the way to calculus, had them score some of the best scores in the nation at the time, and improved all their lives. Now it was based on a true story and the movie more than obviously embellished a little as well. Mainly because he worked for years with the kids and not everything was done in a single year as the movie portrayed. But the point was clear. A good teacher can do WONDERS with a kid. How much time do parents spend with their kids today versus teachers? Who is a more important influence in their daily lives? Yes good parents also help make good children, but good teachers can as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante
"The key to my success with youngsters is a very simple and time-honored tradition: hard work for teacher and student alike" - Escalante
Yes and no. There have always been problems with our education system. Hell they all have flaws as no system can be perfect. That doesn't mean that the system should not strive to continually improve itself. Part of the flaws with education, and teaching specifically, is that no two teachers and no two students are alike. This means figuring the best way to teach what you can with what you have. And that will always change. It is just recently the education system is getting more and more into the media spotlight because of federal intervention. Part of it is because how we compare to other systems around the world. We aren't that great at teaching our kids and we continually get worse year after year when measured up to some other countries. This is also because the world now is a "smaller" place and we can now compare how well our students do to say kids of Serbia, or Spain, or Nigeria. 20+ years ago, people around here would have been like, "Who gives a fuck how our kids compare to those from Switzerland?" That is never the attitude one must take when trying to teach kids.
As far as the original study, the article was pure "duh" for me. However, it did bring up a really nice memory of a movie I used to watch a long time ago. It was called Stand and Deliver, but it was about a group of high school Latinos in an impoverished area not well known for smart students. Basically a run down school, for run down kids who were basically thugs. One teacher started teaching math there and managed to not only bring a up group of "thugs" up from basic algebra, but taught them all the way to calculus, had them score some of the best scores in the nation at the time, and improved all their lives. Now it was based on a true story and the movie more than obviously embellished a little as well. Mainly because he worked for years with the kids and not everything was done in a single year as the movie portrayed. But the point was clear. A good teacher can do WONDERS with a kid. How much time do parents spend with their kids today versus teachers? Who is a more important influence in their daily lives? Yes good parents also help make good children, but good teachers can as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante
"The key to my success with youngsters is a very simple and time-honored tradition: hard work for teacher and student alike" - Escalante
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Teacher union is responding with a boycott of the LA times.
http://www.academia.org/teachers-union-media-boycott/
A boycott is much better than looking at the study and making improvements if possible.
http://www.academia.org/teachers-union-media-boycott/
A boycott is much better than looking at the study and making improvements if possible.
rpanic
Golden Member
- Dec 1, 2006
- 1,896
- 7
- 81
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/28/local/la-me-south-gate-teacher-20100928
Teacher committed suicide, no suicide note or anything. Family and union blaming it on LA Times because he had a low score in the report. Of course Union is going to be all over this.
Teacher committed suicide, no suicide note or anything. Family and union blaming it on LA Times because he had a low score in the report. Of course Union is going to be all over this.
Red Dawn, honestly? You've got years on me so you should of seen the changes to the educational system happening right before your eyes. Shit is FUCKED. The educational system of today is very different than the one of 50 years ago, hell even 20 years ago. IMO I would like to see more research into feminism hurting our educational system. In all reality boys and girls should not be in the same classes. Teaching methods used for boys may not be effective towards girls and vice versa.
Not to mention tests don't mean shit anymore. Homework is king. If you do your homework and fail a test, you can pass. if you don't do your homework and ace a test, you will fail.
True. Rewarding effort and intent rather than performance seems to be a hallmark of modern wussification of America. "Oh, your team got beat? Poor baby, don't practice harder or try harder, here ya go, we won't keep score and we'll call everyone a 'winner'"
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
More tough talk from NJ governor, says tenured teachers should lose it if they suck, sounds good to me
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/29/education/29christie.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/29/education/29christie.html
First
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2002
- 10,518
- 271
- 136
Has next to nothing to do with teachers since the worst teachers I ever had never had any significant impact on whether I learned a subject well or not. It came down to independent study, working with other students and parents getting on my ass. It's not a complicated formula and if I had to guess, I bet schools that invest more dollars to improving teacher's social interactions with their students and their families, independent of the actual subject taught, are the most successful institutions. That's a broad statement, but it's not unheard of to conclude that teachers who garner the respect and admiration of their students are going to find that their students focus and learn better compared to socially out-of-touch educators. Being able to socially interact with one another in, say, high school is practically all most high schoolers are preoccupied with on a daily basis. Though I have no hard evidence to back up that particular assertion, it's not a leap of faith to believe it.
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Yeah I don't fucking get it. If you can pass a test without cheating you must obviously have learned the material, the effort involved in getting to the understanding of the material is well immaterial.True. Rewarding effort and intent rather than performance seems to be a hallmark of modern wussification of America. "Oh, your team got beat? Poor baby, don't practice harder or try harder, here ya go, we won't keep score and we'll call everyone a 'winner'"
First I do believe you're right for the most part, but we still need to have students in "check" and not running rampant. Where I live the school district has banned detention. What the fuck? Not to mention No Child Left Behind has done so much fucking damage it's like wtf?
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Need some accountability but in all fairness SAT scores are static nationwide since the 1960's.
With that said private way out perform public in all measures so I'd give vouchers to children to attend what school they want. Today only parents with means have that option and take it, naturally, because they want what's best for their children. Not right IMO to deny poor folk same opportunity. Especially in really crappy schools.
With that said private way out perform public in all measures so I'd give vouchers to children to attend what school they want. Today only parents with means have that option and take it, naturally, because they want what's best for their children. Not right IMO to deny poor folk same opportunity. Especially in really crappy schools.
You know, it's kind of funny. Everyone I have personally known who holds the position that standardized tests (designed by "bureaucrats" no less - actually not) only test your ability to take tests is using this to explain why they did poorly on one or more of them. Example, I knew this guy who couldn't score higher than the second quartile from the bottom on the LSAT after 3 tries and hence could not get into law school. He incessantly whined and moaned about how these tests "only test your ability to take tests" and claimed that he was brilliant but a terrible test taker. Actually, he was one of the biggest idiots I have ever met and had no business pursuing a legal career. He could never have passed law school, which suggests that the test served its purpose quite well. Conversely, the people I know who aced that test are generally quite bright, and bright in ways that make one an effective attorney. I guess the bureaucrats (actually, it's academics not government functionaries who design the tests) got it right that time.
- wolf
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
What a load of crap.
From my obsevation the biggest change has been the involvement of the students parent(s) or more precisely, the lack there of. I bet if you were to compare schools whose student body has a lot of parental involvement to one that doesn't the former would test out better and have a much lower drop out rate.
What a load of crap.
From my obsevation the biggest change has been the involvement of the students parent(s) or more precisely, the lack there of. I bet if you were to compare schools whose student body has a lot of parental involvement to one that doesn't the former would test out better and have a much lower drop out rate.
The idea is not without merit. Boys and girls are different and develope on slightly different time frames. Girls do better at language at a younger age than boys and boys are still tending to do better at math. Are we better off treating them the same or playing to their strengths and weaknesses.
Just an FYI, this is the first year women will receive more PhDs than men. Men have been falling behind in education for a long time.
What a load of crap.
From my obsevation the biggest change has been the involvement of the students parent(s) or more precisely, the lack there of. I bet if you were to compare schools whose student body has a lot of parental involvement to one that doesn't the former would test out better and have a much lower drop out rate.
Red, Rudder, and Exterous are all right in saying the decline in parental involvement and basic parenting is a huge factor in the decline of the educational system. If the raw materials (the children) being put into the system has declined in quality because Father and Mother are both working and/or are too tired/lazy/guilt-ridden to raise little Johnny and Susy properly anymore, you just can't expect the school system to do as well as it used to. My kids go to a public charter school which requires an application to get in and parental involvement once your child is in, and of course it leads the 'standard' county schools on all academic measures. If you as a parent bother to submit an application to get your child into a charter school, and then agree to perform 10 hours/semester of volunteer work once he/she is in, then you've probably also taken the time to teach little Johnny to sit down, shut up, and pay attention once he's in school. For most parents, school is just free daycare, and that's it, so of course the kids aren't learning much. Heck, at the local school my kids are supposed to attend (except they go to the charter school), there's not even a PTA, because no parent wanted to be bothered. So much for caring about future generations.
What a load of crap.
From my obsevation the biggest change has been the involvement of the students parent(s) or more precisely, the lack there of. I bet if you were to compare schools whose student body has a lot of parental involvement to one that doesn't the former would test out better and have a much lower drop out rate.
Agree 100% on the parental involvement. Parents make all the difference in the world. I don't think the difference in how boys and girls learn is a load of crap though, there is some serious research going on about that right now, because there are clear statistical differences in how well they do based on various approaches.
The problem I see is that tests have a very easy time identifying a moron who does not know a subject. However, they can often fail to identify an intelligent individual who does not know a subject. For example, our high schools in IL had standardized tests, that I passed with amazing scores. When I graduated, I was supposedly at a junior in college level in math, 98th percentile, and according to the test, when I graduated I knew calculus. The truth was, I really didn't. I could do some of it, but beyond the basic derivative, I really did not understand it, and I could not actually do it. However, I am good at taking tests, I knew what the symbols meant, and just enough to make a rough estimate. With a rough estimate, most questions only had two or three answers even close to the ball park. From there I could work backwards to determine which one seemed most reasonable. I think I missed one question in that section.
As an FYI: I am fairly certain my teacher knew I didn't get it, my parents and the teacher had lots of nice long conversations, and talks with me. I barely passed that class, and I think attendance scores pushed me over the edge from failing. It wasn't a bad teacher, I just didn't work hard at it.
Yep people love to blame teachers but look at those scores and follow back to the parents. I bet the good students for the most part will have active parents that even know who their teachers are. The bad ones usually have parents that don;t even knwo their kids names. I remember a parent came in to check their kid out and I asked what class they were in. They had no idea. So I asked what the teachers name is. Again they had no idea. Finally got it and it was someone I knew, an idiot that was held back.
Good teachers can;t force dumb kids to study or make bad parents become active. They can help good students and good parents do even better, but not fix/cure the real problem.
And how do you REALLY rate teachers. What if I get all straight A students and they leave with As. Is that on me the teacher or the students? What if I get all C students and they leave as B students, am I a good teacher or did I dumb the test down?
Good teachers can;t force dumb kids to study or make bad parents become active. They can help good students and good parents do even better, but not fix/cure the real problem.
And how do you REALLY rate teachers. What if I get all straight A students and they leave with As. Is that on me the teacher or the students? What if I get all C students and they leave as B students, am I a good teacher or did I dumb the test down?
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