Who/What do YOU blame for this extreme lull for enthusiasts?

Who is to blame for a boring product lineup?

  • ATI/Nvidia

  • Game Developers/Lack of need

  • Economy

  • Improving APUs from Intel/AMD

  • GPU Fabs (TSMC, GF, whoever)

  • Relatively Cheap and long supported Console Platforms

  • What lull?


Results are only viewable after voting.

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
I haven't been excited for a GPU launch since Titan. There hasn't been a good showdown since the 7xxx/6xx launch. The only stickies at the top of the forum have been for a driver launch, and a comparison chart that hasn't been updated.

I know if I backed out of the game a little, others have as well.

Personally I think it is a perfect crapstorm of all of these coming together to ruin a hobby that gave me almost as much entertainment talking about it on forums, reading reviews, and refreshing Newegg on launch night, as it did to use the actual products.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
I think in all honesty it's just that currently there is no need for faster cards and other hardware. Sure someone might argue about 1440p and surround resolutions need faster. You can always just add a second card or 3rd and be done. There is no software driving the consumers toward new hardware. We don't have things like Quake 3 forcing everyone to buy a GeForce 256 card for T&L performance, there is no Crysis making people want that 8800GTX Ultra. I think there needs to be something that drives the industry forward from a software standpoint.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
The 7000 series and 600 series cards are only 1.5 years old, with a refresh on the Geforce. I thought it was normal for a new series to come out ever 2 years, which is about when the next Radeons are planning to be revealed. Just be patient.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
The 7000 series and 600 series cards are only 1.5 years old, with a refresh on the Geforce. I thought it was normal for a new series to come out ever 2 years, which is about when the next Radeons are planning to be revealed. Just be patient.

There were reviews for the 7970 Q4 2011...which means that silicon has been around for quite some time.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,551
136
A small part of the blame is on the foundries. Process shrinks are going to get harder as we hit 20nm and lower.

Part of it is AMD and nVidia probably are moving to a slower release cycle on purpose. The reason is that everything used to be single video card releases. Now, for the very high end, they know those guys will just buy two video cards for top notch performance. Therefore, both AMD and nVidia feel less of a need to put out a brand new architecture every 12 months.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
There were reviews for the 7970 Q4 2011...which means that silicon has been around for quite some time.

There was a paper launch at the very end of 2011, but that is still just over 1.5 years. We still have a few months before we reach the end of the 2 year cycle that is typical of a process. They even are hinting at a refresh soon.

Be happy they don't refresh much quicker. This hobby would get a lot more expensive.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
It has been this way since GPUs were basically invented. Every time we get a new process technology there is a jump in performance. Processes have been targeted to around 2 years for quite a long time and hence new GPUs of worth come out every 2 years. There is normally an intermediate refresh, but I think nowadays there is less pressure to add new features due to the level of standards and sophistication of the hardware going up.

There is no lul , its business as usual.
 
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Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
The 7000 series and 600 series cards are only 1.5 years old, with a refresh on the Geforce. I thought it was normal for a new series to come out ever 2 years, which is about when the next Radeons are planning to be revealed. Just be patient.

Years ago, ATI and Nvidia used an annual Intel tick-tock release schedule. An architecture would be released, 6 months later a refresh would be released, then another 6 months later a new architecture.

There are 2 main reasons for the stagnation. One is no demanding software, the other is the snail's pace that monitor resolutions are increasing. The mainstream resolution used to improve at a steady pace. It has been stuck at 1080p for quite a few years. High end video cards don't break a sweat with everything maxed at that resolution. Even enthusiasts have been slow to adopt resolutions above 1920x1200 due to the dearth of options.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
8800GT/G92 - October, 2007

GTX280/ GT200 - June, 2008
GTX285 Refresh - Summer 2009?

GTX480 - Fermi - March, 2010
580 refresh - November, 2010

GTX680 - Kepler - March, 2012

Titan Desktop - May, 2013


Maybe it just feels longer because some of that stuff was bunched together? Who knows.
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
Just no reason to upgrade much anymore. Most games don't demand much. The most popular games are cheaper games that don't require next gen stuff.
 

wilds

Platinum Member
Oct 26, 2012
2,059
674
136
The Smartphone/Tablet market has been a huge factor. With the vast majority of consumer electronics being moved from the desktop to mobile platforms, the industry is now focusing on a lower powered platform.

Is performance starting to stagnate? I don't think so. Yes, we are seeing Intel slow down, but I think that has to blame with the lack of high performance releases from AMD. Look at the notebook sector for Intel CPU's; they are nearly as powerful as their desktop counterparts.

The GPU side is nearly the same story. This is one of the first generations that NVIDIA numbers their parts as the same as the desktop. The GTX 780M is a fully unlocked GK104; AKA as the GTX 680. Sure, the 7970m/8970m is a 7870 on the desktop side, but the performance that we have placed in small form factors is unheard of.

GPU performance has skyrocketed overall. It is not slowing down and will continue to grow; especially when 4K hits mainstream.
I don't see a stagnation in Silicon Valley; just a focus on overall platform efficiency.

Add an option in the poll: Handheld/Ultraportable computing.
 
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Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
The Smartphone/Tablet market has been a huge factor. With the vast majority of consumer electronics being moved from the desktop to mobile platforms, the industry is now focusing on a lower powered platform.

Is performance starting to stagnate? I don't think so. Yes, we are seeing Intel slow down, but I think that has to blame with the lack of high performance releases from AMD. Look at the notebook sector for Intel CPU's; they are nearly as powerful as their desktop counterparts.

The GPU side is nearly the same story. This is one of the first generations that NVIDIA numbers their parts as the same as the desktop. The GTX 780M is a fully unlocked GK104; AKA as the GTX 680. Sure, the 7970m/8970m is a 7870 on the desktop side, but the performance that we have placed in small form factors is unheard of.

GPU performance has skyrocketed overall. It is not slowing down and will continue to grow; especially when 4K hits mainstream.
I don't see a stagnation in Silicon Valley; just a focus on overall platform efficiency.

Add an option in the poll: Handheld/Ultraportable computing.
Low cost 4k displays can't come soon enough, especially in laptops for god's sake. You'd think that a display like the rMBP Apple is touting should be graced with a pair of 780Ms to drive it. But not even high end venders seem willing to step beyond 1080P. :mad:

Not to mention the sadness that tablets (and even some smartphones) put 95% of notebook displays to shame. What's the deal with that!!!
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
There really isn't much need to update. Games just don't require much more gpu power then they did 2 years ago. My kit is now 2 generations old (i2500K + GTX 570), and I could/would have updated normally, but there's no point as everything I play still runs fine at high settings and high fps. Might as well wait another year.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Titan was exciting?

$1000 GPUs are far away from exciting..

You know what's really exciting? If they gave us that performance at $500 like previous gen top dog. Now instead they are selling mid-range chips for $500 and top chips for $1000.. really exciting.. not.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
I think many of the reasons proposed play a role. To this list I would add the lack of innovation in the world of PC monitors.

The vast majority of gamers run a single 1080p monitor. 1440p/1660p (and very recently, 4k) monitors exist, as does the still-imperfect world of multi-monitor gaming, but these have all remained niche. Why?

I think the answer has to do with the fact that display manufacturers like LG and Samsung have spent so much effort in recent years doing the following:
(a) making bigger and bigger (1080p) HDTVs, and
(b) pouring most of their true innovation talent into making phone and tablet size screens higher res and more affordable

Seriously. 1080p is available on 5-inch phones. 2048x1536 is already available on the 9.7-inch iPad and 1600p is about to hit Samsung's upcoming 10 and 12-inch tablets. We have had huge and impressive innovations to these handheld devices, whereas PC monitors are stuck at the same PPI they've had for years. Result? Little competition to produce higher and higher res PC screens at competitive prices.

IF this weren't the case, one could imagine that (true, 60Hz) 4k monitors would have hit earlier, or that we would have had native 120Hz monitors at 1440p/1600p. And if THIS were the case, current-gen GPUs would be having a much harder time running games at these resolutions, regardless of whether a nex-gen of consoles were just around the corner. This would, in turn, likely have prompted greater competition between AMD and NVIDIA than we've seen in recent years.

When 4k gaming monitors become more affordable, all this may well change. But I do mean significantly more affordable. Many gamers seem to have gotten used to spending only USD100-350 for a gaming monitor, even if they're happy to spend USD350-700 on GPUs to drive that monitor...

Note: This post is not intended to make a water-tight argument. One cannot know what 'would have happened' if something else (i.e., innovations in hand-held screens) hadn't happened. One can only muse about such questions.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
8800GTX - November 2006

GTX280 - June, 2008

GTX480 - Fermi - March, 2010

GTX680 - Kepler - March, 2012

Next gen ~ March 2014

Fixed. 8800GT (G92) is not a new generation. That's a mid-range refresh of 8800GTS 640MB SKU which came out along 8800GTX. As has been mentioned by others, new NV generations come out roughly every 2 years. Everything we are seeing is the usual course of business (other than NV launching mid-range Kepler first, following up with flagship 1 year later). On the architecture side, NV is moving along no differently than before. We shouldn't expect any major NV GPU on 20nm until March 2014 at the earliest.

We should expect slight delays though as moving down to lower nodes is becoming harder and more expensive. I think GPU landscape will be a lot more exciting once 20nm GPUs arrive and we have next gen console ports being developed on the PC from the ground-up. Based on developer feedback for next gen console title development, most developers are starting to make games on a high-end PC first and then scale them down to PS4/XB1. This is not at all how PS360 games were developed. Hopefully this means the PC gaming platform won't be as held back as before during PS360 gen.

I think because GTX780/GK110 came out about 1 year after GTX680, it doesn't seem as impressive. Yet, if we compare GTX580 vs. 780, the performance increase is 80%, or nearly 100% from GTX480. That's the most impressive increase in performance from 1 node to another NV has produced since they moved from 7800GTX to 8800GTX. The performance increase from 8800GTX to 280/285 or from 280/285 to 480/580 was nowhere near 80-100%. But because NV executed so spectacularly with Kepler this generation we ended up with a situation where AMD is far behind in performance and NV waited 1 full year to launch GTX780. Although I don't foresee the same 80-100% increase in performance from Kepler single-GPU flagship to Maxwell single-GPU flagship though, as games like Witcher 3 come out, we'll have a lot more reason to upgrade from HD7970/GTX680 level of GPUs.

Low cost 4k displays can't come soon enough, especially in laptops for god's sake.

What? The last thing laptops need right now are 4K displays. If you have 20/20 vision and you take a 15.6 inch laptop and you are working under normal conditions (not sitting 10 cms away from from the screen), you cannot notice the pixels with a resolution of 1080P. Go ahead and try it. The downside to 4K displays on laptops are skyrocketing prices and need of a GPU many times more powerful to drive graphics on such a screen. What we need for laptops are 24 hour battery life and use of more exotic lightweight materials like magnesium, carbon fiber, etc. I would buy a 1080P 15.6 inch laptop with 3.5 weight with 24 hour battery and 0.5" thickness over a 4K laptop that's 0.8" thick and only has 8 hour of battery life any day.

On the desktop, 4K is also questionable. Heck, you can put 8K on a desktop screen but the problem is LCD/LED technology itself has inferior image quality. If you compare image quality of say a plasma to LCD/LED, plasma destroys it in almost all relevant metrics from response time, black levels, viewing angles, accuracy of colours. The reason the industry wants to push 4K is because it's very easy to market a spec/number to the average person. How about they focus on producing an actual next generation display technology that supersedes Plasma/LED and make it affordable?

Additionally, you can significantly improve graphics in games without moving beyond 1080P. Current physics effects, level of textures and shaders is still very primitive. Characters models are still very low polygon count relatively speaking. The last thing we want right now is to waste GPU resources on a trivial move from 1080P/1600P to 4K when that GPU horsepower is FAR better used on more sophisticated character models, global illumination/lighting/physics/particle and other shader effects, etc. The number of NPCs/objects on screen can also increase. If you look at a game like the Division, despite running at 1080P, it looks very good. We need next generation PC game engines before 4K. Throwing 4K rez at primitive level of graphics is like throwing lipstick on a pig.

When 4k gaming monitors become more affordable, all this may well change.

Is performance starting to stagnate? I don't think so.

I still think people are downplaying the increases we've had with GPUs this generation. This is likely because prices have increased overall which has overshadowed the impressive gains NV and AMD produced on 28nm. Strictly from a performance point of view, this has been one very impressive generation despite what people keep repeating for the last 1.5 years that they are disappointed.

Some newer games show this:

Arma 3 GTX780 is 76% faster than GTX580. HD7970GE is 85% faster than HD6970!
a3%201920%20vh.jpg


Castlevania GTX780 is 112% faster than GTX580. HD7970GE is 70% faster than HD6970
clos%202560.jpg


Dark. GTX780 is 77% faster than GTX580. HD7970GE is 73% faster than HD6970.
d%202560.jpg


Crysis 3:LI. Titan (780 not in the chart) is 89% faster than GTX580. HD7970GE is 68% faster than HD6970.
crysis3%201920.jpg


I know if I backed out of the game a little, others have as well.

Anecdotal evidence is not representative of the market as a whole.

"The effect that key titles have on hardware sales is phenomenal. Enthusiast PC Gamers embrace content creation and modding, so when titles like Bohemia Interactive's ARMA 3 are in the pipeline, we start to see anticipatory hardware sales. In fact, we are estimating over $800 million of PC builds influenced primarily by this title. A major component of this situation is that many games are placing increasing demands on the CPU. The result is that swapping out the graphics add-in board is not enough this time around and gamers are building (and ordering) overclocked PC's from the ground up." ~ Source

PC Gaming Hardware market is expect to grow, not decline. Gamers are expected to spend more than ever on premium GPUs:

"Jon Peddie, President of JPR said, "Not only is gaming becoming an even more important purchasing influence of PC sales due to the offloading of more basic functionality to smart devices, but we are forecasting growth in the most expensive discrete graphics products."

64b.jpg


Also, let's look at what level of performance we can have in GPUs now. GTX580 cost $499. You can now get that level of performance for $170 in HD7870. GTX760 delivers 95% of the performance of GTX670 for just $250. GPU landscape is not slowing down at all. Prices are dropping and performance is increasing. The problem is a gap between $350 price level of HD7970 1Ghz cards and $650 GTX780. There is no card in between realistically worth buying which shows an imbalance in the marketplace. To move up from HD7970 level of performance you now have to spend almost double. Perhaps because of this some enthusiasts are very unhappy about the current state of things. We are already seeing price movements as 7990 can be had for $670-700. The GPU landscape is far more exciting than the joke Intel gave us with Haswell on the desktop.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Titan was exciting?

$1000 GPUs are far away from exciting..

You know what's really exciting? If they gave us that performance at $500 like previous gen top dog. Now instead they are selling mid-range chips for $500 and top chips for $1000.. really exciting.. not.

Show me the guarantee that we are supposed to get Titan level GPUs for $500. There isn't such a thing. GPUs are priced according to performance and the performance of the 680 at the time of release compared to what was out at the time was fair for the price.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
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Show me the guarantee that we are supposed to get Titan level GPUs for $500. There isn't such a thing. GPUs are priced according to performance and the performance of the 680 at the time of release compared to what was out at the time was fair for the price.

Look through previous generation of GPUs, top dogs are usually around the $500 mark, +/- some. NOT $1000.

These top GPUs were also massive dies.

GK110 is a massive die like its predecessor, except now its priced at $1000. There's nothing special about it besides the ridiculous mark up.
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,604
15
81
Consoles probably, no games really need high end graphics unless you run >1080p or >1 screen.

Ive been sat on a 5850 since 1/1/2010 :$ Only now am i even considering upgrading, probably wait for the next gen though.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Look through previous generation of GPUs, top dogs are usually around the $500 mark, +/- some. NOT $1000.

These top GPUs were also massive dies.

GK110 is a massive die like its predecessor, except now its priced at $1000. There's nothing special about it besides the ridiculous mark up.

I ask you to show me the guarantee and you can't. These are priced according to supply, demand, and performance. That's it.