Who was more barbaric in World War II?

[dave_the_nerd]

That is my understanding as well, they pretty much followed whatever agreements there were in place regarding POW'S with the exception of slavs and Russians.

The russians hadn't signed onto the Geneva Convention. Neither had Japan. Rules for POW treatment were at that time only applied to cosignatories. (Although IIRC the US more or less followed the Geneva rules with Japanese POWs. Not always perfectly, but certainly moreso than Germany did with Russians. The less said about how the US treated japanese-american citizens, however... ugh.)

Then the Russian POWs went home and were thrown into gulags on suspicion of Nazi sympathies.

The Aristocrats!

 

[lord_emperor]

They weren't chosen specifically because they were military targets, it was merely a criteria so that if the bomb didn't stop the war through sheer shock and awe, at the very least they would have done something good industrial wise.

They were done to showcase the bomb and its effect on civilians. The two cities had never been the target of any actual bombing raid and were "virgin" targets to get a before and after picture of the effect of a single bomb on a "pristine" city. It was quite definitely chosen because of its untouched civilian population.

Of course, WW2 was during an era where mass killing civilians wasn't an issue for any side during wartime. Russia, Germany, Japan may have committed atrocities against their own during the war, but everyone massacred civilians on the enemy side.

Exactly.

I have watched several WWII documentaries where historians and pilots alike remark on the incredible care with which American bombers would target Germany, they would avoid carpet bombing and target only industrial buildings. One bombardier boasted he could land a bomb in a water bucket.

For Japan on the other hand, fire-bombings and flatten two cities with nukes.

 

[uhohs]

Exactly.

I have watched several WWII documentaries where historians and pilots alike remark on the incredible care with which American bombers would target Germany, they would avoid carpet bombing and target only industrial buildings. One bombardier boasted he could land a bomb in a water bucket.

For Japan on the other hand, fire-bombings and flatten two cities with nukes.

Dresden?

also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#US_bombing_in_Europe

In reality, the day bombing was "precision bombing" only in the sense that most bombs fell somewhere near a specific designated target such as a railway yard. Conventionally, the air forces designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision targets fell within this target area.[146] In the fall of 1944, only seven percent of all bombs dropped by the Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000 feet of their aim point.

For the sake of improving the US air-force Fire bombing capabilities a mock-up German Village was built up and repeatedly burned down. It contained full scale replicas of German residential homes. Fire bombing attacks proved quite successful, in a single 1943 attack on Hamburg roughly 50,000 civilians were killed and practically the entire city destroyed.

 

[ShawnD1]

Japan DID bomb America due to American economic aggression.

America did not like one bit that Japan attacked Manchuria and imposed economic sanctions that included metal and oil, two key components of doing anything.

It always amazes me how retarded some countries can be.
Country A attacks some country.
Everybody puts boycotts Country A.
Country A is totally shocked that this would happen.

The same thing happened to Germany. When WW2 started, trade was slowed/stopped. USA and USSR were important players in winning the war, but a total lack of supplies was just as crippling. When trying to invade Russia, the Germans would have entire battalions of tanks sittings there, not moving. They had no fuel. Then they get to Russia and they don't have proper winter oil, so their shit doesn't even work in winter. How did they fuck that up so bad?

From what I read the German army was pretty professional. They treated Allied POWs well other than Russians.

Slavs were sub-human creatures just like blacks and jews, so they were treated as such. The more familiar looking Brits and French were treated more like humans.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

It always amazes me how retarded some countries can be.
Country A attacks some country.
Everybody puts boycotts Country A.
Country A is totally shocked that this would happen.

The same thing happened to Germany. When WW2 started, trade was slowed/stopped. USA and USSR were important players in winning the war, but a total lack of supplies was just as crippling. When trying to invade Russia, the Germans would have entire battalions of tanks sittings there, not moving. They had no fuel. Then they get to Russia and they don't have proper winter oil, so their shit doesn't even work in winter. How did they fuck that up so bad?


Slavs were sub-human creatures just like blacks and jews, so they were treated as such. The more familiar looking Brits and French were treated more like humans.

Even at war, economies are intertwined. Countries hope that other countries won't cut off economic aid under the hope that the threat of war with those unrelated nations would keep oil flowing. Anyway, economic sanctions tend to be "less" stuff in order to restrict the spread of the conflict. Taking away "most" of it just tends to piss people off and makes them desperate.

As for the Russian thing, Germany was relying on the ability to capture and control key strategic oil reserves in Russia to fuel their war machine. From what I remember, they failed to capture the key reserve that could have fueled the entire front and that was huge in the inability to field effective armor.

 

[NeoV]

do we have an estimate on how many people were killed by Japan's 'experiments' and such compared to how many people died in the Nazi camps?

 

[ichy]

That is my understanding as well, they pretty much followed whatever agreements there were in place regarding POW'S with the exception of slavs and Russians.

There were some massacres of Allied POWs on the Western Front but I believe those were mostly carried out by the Waffen SS and not the Wehrmacht.

 

[ichy]

One bombardier boasted he could land a bomb in a water bucket.

Unfortunately he was full of shit. WW2 technology simply didn't allow that kind of precision. You're also completely ignoring the RAF's firebombing raids.

 

[ShawnD1]

do we have an estimate on how many people were killed by Japan's 'experiments' and such compared to how many people died in the Nazi camps?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ww2_deaths
China
7,000,000
to 16,000,000

Keep in mind they invaded a lot more than just China.

(from same link as above)

Japanese war crimes
Included with total war dead are victims of Japanese war crimes

R. J. Rummel estimates the civilian victims at 5,424,000. Detailed by country: China 3,695,000; Indochina 457,000; Korea 378,000; Indonesia 375,000; Malaya-Singapore 283,000; Philippines 119,000, Burma 60,000 and Pacific Islands 57,000. Rummel estimates POW deaths in Japanese custody at 539,000 Detailed by country: China 400,000; French Indochina 30,000; Philippines 27,300; Netherlands 25,000; France 14,000; UK 13,000; UK-Colonies 11,000; US 10,700; Australia 8,000.[8][56]

Werner Gruhl estimates the civilian victims at 20,365,000. Detailed by country: China 12,392,000; Indochina 1,500,000; Korea 500,000; Dutch East Indies 3,000,000; Malaya and Singapore 100,000; Philippines 500,000; Burma 170,000; Forced laborers in Southeast Asia 70,000, 30,000 interned non-Asian civilians; Timor 60,000; Thailand and Pacific Islands 60,000.[57] Gruhl estimates POW deaths in Japanese captivity at 331,584. Detailed by country: China 270,000; Netherlands 8,500; U.K. 12,433; Canada 273; Philippines 20,000; Australia 7,412; New Zealand 31; and the United States 12,935[57]

The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that “the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese[58]

I bolded that one because it's the only one that agrees with the number of civilians killed in China from the table at the top.

 

[uhohs]

Unfortunately he was full of shit. WW2 technology simply didn't allow that kind of precision. You're also completely ignoring the RAF's firebombing raids.

yep, before computers and guided smart bombs, all bombing was basically a form of carpet bombing, just of different magnitude/size/intensity.

 

[Mxylplyx]

The regular German army was quite civilized as far as the rules of warfare go. The SS and their wholesale, systematic slaughter of Jews was quite a different story, and easily rivals what the Japanese did. We are probably more conditioned to think that the Japanese are more savage due to stereotype and prejudice, but Nazi concentration camps easily rivals the sick shit the Japs did, particularly since the German atrocities were a carefully managed affair, whereas I believe the Japanese atrocities were more of an unorganized rape and pillage while the higher ups simply looked the other way.

To illustrate, I think a German SS officer would raise objection to catching one of his subordinates raping a Jewish prisoner, more out of a unit discipline concern rather than a moral objection. A Japanese superior would likely cheer his subordinate on, or throw him out so he could go first. Attempting to decipher which one is more savage is like splitting hairs.

 

[ichy]

Mxylplyx: I would be wary of characterizing the Wehrmacht as a bunch of honorable professional soldiers. They weren't like the SS but they do not deserve to be romanticized or have their record whitewashed either.

 

[ichy]

yep, before computers and guided smart bombs, all bombing was basically a form of carpet bombing, just of different magnitude/size/intensity.

Part of the reason that American bombing raids killed more Japanese civilians than German ones was that Japanese buildings had far more paper and wood in them. It's much easier to create a firestorm there than it is in an old German city. US bombing against Japan also started off trying to hit targets in daylight but B-29s flew too high up to achieve anything, that's why they switched to nighttime firebombing.

 

[Anarchist420]

I think the Allied war crimes were far worse than those committed by the Axis powers at least if you include what Churchill did before and after WWII. Hitler was terrible but Stalin, Churchill, and Truman/FDR were far worse. I'm not saying I wish the Axis powers had won, because it wouldn't have really made any overall difference.

To answer the OP's specific question... I don't really know. I've generally believed that the party that tries to stop an intervention is generally the worse one than the conquerer. That's somehow wound up being the U.S. starting with the Spanish American War. The U.S. should've stayed the fuck out of both Wilsonian wars and a lot fewer people would've been murdered.

 

[Linflas]

I think the Allied war crimes were far worse than those committed by the Axis powers at least if you include what Churchill did before and after WWII. Hitler was terrible but Stalin, Churchill, and Truman/FDR were far worse. I'm not saying I wish the Axis powers had won, because it wouldn't have really made any overall difference.

To answer the OP's specific question... I don't really know. I've generally believed that the party that tries to stop an intervention is generally the worse one than the conquerer. That's somehow wound up being the U.S. starting with the Spanish American War. The U.S. should've stayed the fuck out of both Wilsonian wars and a lot fewer people would've been murdered.

Just curious, exactly what did the Allies do that was in any way comparable to things like the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, or the systematic genocide of over 6 million people? And your assertion that there is no difference between fascist dictatorships and democratic republics is just laughable.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Mxylplyx: I would be wary of characterizing the Wehrmacht as a bunch of honorable professional soldiers. They weren't like the SS but they do not deserve to be romanticized or have their record whitewashed either.

No armies of that period really deserve to be romanticized. Atrocities were just the order of the day during that time. My wife's grandfather fought in the Pacific, and he tells me stories of Japanese prisoners being thrown out the door of transport planes in flight just for the fun of it. Hard to really judge them when they were indoctrinated with the belief that the Japanese were less than human. I'm not going to claim that the regular German army was just as professional as ours, but I would place them well above the Japanese or Russian regular army. I'd rather be in a German POW camp over a Japanese or Russian one. I doubt many would argue with that.

 

[Analog]

 

[ichy]

I'm not going to claim that the regular German army was just as professional as ours, but I would place them well above the Japanese or Russian regular army. I'd rather be in a German POW camp over a Japanese or Russian one. I doubt many would argue with that.

I absolutely agree about that part. The Allies were much better about how they treated enemy civilians though than the German army.

 

[Gibsons]

Unfortunately he was full of shit. WW2 technology simply didn't allow that kind of precision. You're also completely ignoring the RAF's firebombing raids.

Yeah, he was completely wrong but he probably believed it. There was a pretty strong belief throughout the usaac that their bombing was pretty precise.

 

[IAteYourMother]

No, I mean the careful record keeping of the Nazis as they went about their day to day tasks.

CBS News - Revisiting The Horrors Of The Holocaust

Right, so what does that have to do with the post that you replied to?

 

[Baked]

Everybody who were involved in WWII.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I absolutely agree about that part. The Allies were much better about how they treated enemy civilians though than the German army.

Depends. Russia was part of the allies, they didn't treat their POWS all too well.

America did some pretty bad things in occupied Japan, and launched a pretty thorough censorship campaign.

 

[lord_emperor]

Dresden?

also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#US_bombing_in_Europe

"The raids, codenamed Operation Gomorrah by the RAF, killed about 40,000 civilians; the precise number is not known. About 1 million civilians were evacuated in the aftermath of the raids."

My post was about the comparative bombing philosophies employed by the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_bombing#Second_World_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#US_bombing_in_Europe

Success aside, it seems like the USAF tried to utilize precision bombing in Europe and it was the official policy. Comparatively Japanese cities were firebombed and nuked.

 

[uhohs]

"The raids, codenamed Operation Gomorrah by the RAF, killed about 40,000 civilians; the precise number is not known. About 1 million civilians were evacuated in the aftermath of the raids."

My post was about the comparative bombing philosophies employed by the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_bombing#Second_World_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#US_bombing_in_Europe

Success aside, it seems like the USAF tried to utilize precision bombing in Europe and it was the official policy. Comparatively Japanese cities were firebombed and nuked.

The quotes I posted were from the section US bombing in Europe and the United States participated in the firebombing of Dresden and other European cities.

 

[CanOWorms]

The Germans have been a lot more honest about owning up to their dirty history.

Perhaps in regards to WW2, but they traditionally have denied much of their other dirty history. For example, Germans tend to be very evasive on the Herero genocide.