Who wants to be a banker?? **UPDATED POLL**

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
I think both mike and vic are missing the fact of the weath is simply created from thin air. Given to corporate lending institutions at extremly low intrest (~2% right now) then loaned out to us at a much higher rate. Free money for all those who take part in the transaction. Pretty sweet. Yes I want to be a commercail bank... But not as sweet as the generator of this fiat money.

I understand the concept but to say that the money is created out of thin air is stretchin it a bit. And the only bank that can do this is the Federal Reserve. All other banks are only allowed to lend what they actually have, and it is an extremely competitive business in the US. In the article, the author called them "finance lenders," when in fact they are just your regular bank. In the US, the only entity that is similar to what he calls a bank is the Federal Reserve.

Michael, the anti-Jewish sentiments regarding money lender stem from the history of European money lending. Remember that the only time that Christ ever became so angry as to use physical force was when he whipped the money-changers out of the temple. Until the 1300's, the charging of interest (or usury) was illegal in every Christian European country. The practice changed in Belgium in the 1300's, when the flax trade made certain cities so wealthy, and their business speculations and transactions so large, that a fiat money system became almost necessary. Because the charging of interest was illegal, however, and forbidden to Christians in the Bible, the local governments granted that only Jews were allowed to participate in the new banking system, a practice that did not change for centuries. Just a brief history lesson.

 

[Michael]

It is a mutually agreed upon "fiction". There really is much more to it than that, but even with my training and experience I get lost with the high-level theory of money and money supply.

Money really isn't created for free. If a government just prints and prints and prints it, the value of the currency will crash. If the money supply basically tracks the growth of weath in the nation as a whole, then you can print money (it isn't really free, again, as it has a certain effect on the overall value of the currency already in circulation).

Michael

ps - I know the history of interest and banking and what role the Jewish people had in it. I'm not Jewish, but it is an area of history I'm interested in. I'm just saying that I've never had a conversation with people that hold the irrational beliefs as espoused on the website that was linked without the "vast Zionist conspiracy" theme coming out. They seem to go hand-in-hand for some reason.

Whipping the money changers out of the Temple (I think he overturned the tables of the people selling animals to be sacrificed as well, don't have a bible in my office to check for sure) had to do with the lack of respect for the holiness of the Temple, not the actual activity.

These are the same loonies that argue that collecting income tax is unconstitutional and illegal (even though this line of legal reasoning has failed at the Supreme court level)

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: Michael
Banks lose money and go under all the time. You're ignoring the risk that banks take when they lend money:

1) Inflation may make the money they collect in the future worth less than they assumed

2) Borrowers can default

and many, many more.

Take a look at the financial statements of a typical bank. Microsoft has much higher margins than a bank does.

Banks are limited in their growth by the capital they accrue (ignoring M&A and using their stock).

Items like this are both simple and complex. I'm waiting for the typical anti-Jewish comments to come out from Gigapet. Usually the tin foil beanie brigade start blaming the "dirty Jews" for charging interest once they really get rolling.

Michael

1) If the banks are both issuing currency and loaning it out I am sure they can control precisely the inflation rate.

2) Charging interest for the risk of default is acceptable if the loan is based on actual money backed by something. However they are charging interest on money they create (pull out of thin air)

I have nothing against jews, I do have something against elitist international banking families whose is to enslave all of mankind aside from themselves and there friends.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Maybe you should read a little bit closer........I dont think your fully understanding the point(s) of the story. Try revising your sentence of 505 chickens makes little or no sense.

I feel the need to point out that you are telling a CPA and CFO of a corporation that he doesn't understand the basic principles of money.

I think you deserve and award for the idiocy you have displayed in this thread. Maybe a custom title of forum idiot. I also feel the need to point out that you have a complete and utter lack of understand of economics. I'm willing to bet at this point that you aren't even capable of balacing a checkbook let alone understanding monetary theory or the basis of US banking system.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
I think both mike and vic are missing the fact of the weath is simply created from thin air. Given to corporate lending institutions at extremly low intrest (~2% right now) then loaned out to us at a much higher rate. Free money for all those who take part in the transaction. Pretty sweet. Yes I want to be a commercail bank... But not as sweet as the generator of this fiat money.

I understand the concept but to say that the money is created out of thin air is stretchin it a bit. And the only bank that can do this is the Federal Reserve. All other banks are only allowed to lend what they actually have, and it is an extremely competitive business in the US. In the article, the author called them "finance lenders," when in fact they are just your regular bank. In the US, the only entity that is similar to what he calls a bank is the Federal Reserve.

Michael, the anti-Jewish sentiments regarding money lender stem from the history of European money lending. Remember that the only time that Christ ever became so angry as to use physical force was when he whipped the money-changers out of the temple. Until the 1300's, the charging of interest (or usury) was illegal in every Christian European country. The practice changed in Belgium in the 1300's, when the flax trade made certain cities so wealthy, and their business speculations and transactions so large, that a fiat money system became almost necessary. Because the charging of interest was illegal, however, and forbidden to Christians in the Bible, the local governments granted that only Jews were allowed to participate in the new banking system, a practice that did not change for centuries. Just a brief history lesson.

Not true VIC.

There are four basic catagories of Banks and the money flows as follows.

1. Federal Reserve, only one and only one which can print money.

2. Federal Reserve dispositories, which borrow money from #1 at the super low rate (called the Federal funds Market rate) of around 1.15% right now.

3. US Commerical Banks, which borrow money from #2 at something called the discount rate of 2.25% right now.

4. US corporations and regoinal banks, Are able to borrow from #3 at what's called the Prime rate of 4.45% right now.

Now we as consumers can only borrow from the last one at insane rates relative.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Once again how do you create wealth from nothing? I really don't understand how they can just print money, then charge intrest on this instument of no intrinsic value? We agree on it fine, but why?

As in the story, US currency evolved from a trust in the gold reserves. The reliance on gold as the bais for US currency has subsided in past years as the US has become a world power. Think about it like this. The US note is less of a "money out of thin air" and more an investment in the stability of the US economy/government. It has evolved.

 

[gigapet]

ALso break out your freshmen year macroeconomics book and read up about FDIC backed banks. It will tell you that the Fed tells banks what % of money they must keep to what percentage they may lone out. For instance if I deposit 1000 in the bank. The bank may be allowed to loan out 800 of it. But then that person with the 800 hundred can deposit 500 and the bank can loan out 400 of it. now then with simple math that means the bank has loaned out 1200 on an original 1000 deposit. Hence money made from nothing. You are a really bad finance person remind me never to trade with you.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: gigapet
ALso break out your freshmen year macroeconomics book and read up about FDIC backed banks. It will tell you that the Fed tells banks what % of money they must keep to what percentage they may lone out. For instance if I deposit 1000 in the bank. The bank may be allowed to loan out 800 of it. But then that person with the 800 hundred can deposit 500 and the bank can loan out 400 of it. now then with simple math that means the bank has loaned out 1200 on an original 1000 deposit. Hence money made from nothing. You are a really bad finance person remind me never to trade with you.

Boy I wish I could do your math! By simply making deposits and withdrawls I can grow the amount of money I have exponentially! Will you invent a perpetual motion machine for your next trick? Or is that being hidden by the vast international money conspiracy?

 

[Michael]

Not the CFO, VP, Corporate Controller. CFO is my next job.

Who just happened to spend all night Thursday with investment bankers and lawyers doing the offering circular and indenture document for this:

A small loan

But that's ok, it is the internet, everyone is an expert.

Michael

ps - one of my main areas of middle ages history research was/is the Knights Templar who were bankers ....

 

[rahvin]

Michael,

You are close enough to a CFO for me, take a pay raise and change your title.

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Once again how do you create wealth from nothing? I really don't understand how they can just print money, then charge intrest on this instument of no intrinsic value? We agree on it fine, but why?

As in the story, US currency evolved from a trust in the gold reserves. The reliance on gold as the bais for US currency has subsided in past years as the US has become a world power. Think about it like this. The US note is less of a "money out of thin air" and more an investment in the stability of the US economy/government. It has evolved.

We were never given a choice on whether or not we wanted to surrender the reliance on gold as the basis for money. And if money is an investment inthe stability of this countries economy then goddamn it I want out cuz it is this current system which is making the economy unstable and more and more householdes overcome with debt.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Not true VIC.

There are four basic catagories of Banks and the money flows as follows.

1. Federal Reserve, only one and only one which can print money.

2. Federal Reserve dispositories, which borrow money from #1 at the super low rate (called the Federal funds Market rate) of around 1.15% right now.

3. US Commerical Banks, which borrow money from #2 at something called the discount rate of 2.25% right now.

4. US corporations and regoinal banks, Are able to borrow from #3 at what's called the Prime rate of 4.45% right now.

Now we as consumers can only borrow from the last one at insane rates relative.

I was speaking in reference to this "article," where the only place where money could be "created out of thin air" was at your #1 there, the Federal Reserve. The rest borrow money from the Fed and then pass it along.
The Fed Funds rate is currently at 1.25%, the Prime is at 4.25%. Not all money lent is based off those rates, however. For example, FNMA/FHLMC mortgages are not.

 

[Michael]

We were given the choice. In two ways:

1) We didn't elect anyone who changed it back

2) the world accepted the change and didn't crash the value of our currency

BTW - didn't I just post in this thread that gold only has a basic value based on supply and demand and that any other value is just as "fictional" as paper money? I can buy a coffee at Starbucks a lot easier with a five dollar bill than a gold bar, so maybe the $5 bill is worth more.

More and more households are having debt problems because the power of derivitives and distribution has made debt much more "democratic" and available. Credit Cards being the prime example.

Mortgage debt is probably "good" debt. Credit Card debt that came from a night on the town that you're paying for months later is a poor decision. The decisions have been pushed down low enough that people with no clue are making really dumb choices. However, do you think they'll accept you taking the right to make the choice away from them?

Michael

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Once again how do you create wealth from nothing? I really don't understand how they can just print money, then charge intrest on this instument of no intrinsic value? We agree on it fine, but why?

As in the story, US currency evolved from a trust in the gold reserves. The reliance on gold as the bais for US currency has subsided in past years as the US has become a world power. Think about it like this. The US note is less of a "money out of thin air" and more an investment in the stability of the US economy/government. It has evolved.

We were never given a choice on whether or not we wanted to surrender the reliance on gold as the basis for money. And if money is an investment inthe stability of this countries economy then goddamn it I want out cuz it is this current system which is making the economy unstable and more and more householdes overcome with debt.

You cant blame system for people having debt. Do you think debt did not exist before the banking system was created?

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: Michael
Not the CFO, VP, Corporate Controller. CFO is my next job.

Who just happened to spend all night Thursday with investment bankers and lawyers doing the offering circular and indenture document for this:

A small loan

But that's ok, it is the internet, everyone is an expert.

Michael

ps - one of my main areas of middle ages history research was/is the Knights Templar who were bankers ....

"Those few who can understand the system (check book money and credit) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on it favors, that there will be little opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear it burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests ": Rothschilds Bros.


I place you into the frist category regarding this quote, you understand the system and are compelled by its profits. You work for them congradulations more power to you.

Well regardless of your position it is obvious your on the inside so of course it all good to you. And your study of the the knights templar and banking in the middle ages should make it crystal clear that fiat banking has been one of the biggest scams going since written history.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Once again how do you create wealth from nothing? I really don't understand how they can just print money, then charge intrest on this instument of no intrinsic value? We agree on it fine, but why?

As in the story, US currency evolved from a trust in the gold reserves. The reliance on gold as the bais for US currency has subsided in past years as the US has become a world power. Think about it like this. The US note is less of a "money out of thin air" and more an investment in the stability of the US economy/government. It has evolved.

We were never given a choice on whether or not we wanted to surrender the reliance on gold as the basis for money. And if money is an investment inthe stability of this countries economy then goddamn it I want out cuz it is this current system which is making the economy unstable and more and more householdes overcome with debt.

I must say that is an interesting theory. The loss of the gold standard forced people to live beyond their means by taking out loans they could not afford to buy thinks like $30000 cars and $300k homes.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Michael
Not the CFO, VP, Corporate Controller. CFO is my next job.

Who just happened to spend all night Thursday with investment bankers and lawyers doing the offering circular and indenture document for this:

A small loan

But that's ok, it is the internet, everyone is an expert.

Michael

ps - one of my main areas of middle ages history research was/is the Knights Templar who were bankers ....

"Those few who can understand the system (check book money and credit) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on it favors, that there will be little opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear it burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests ": Rothschilds Bros.


I place you into the frist category regarding this quote, you understand the system and are compelled by its profits. You work for them congradulations more power to you.

Well regardless of your position it is obvious your on the inside so of course it all good to you. And your study of the the knights templar and banking in the middle ages should make it crystal clear that fiat banking has been one of the biggest scams going since written history.

So when are you going to end the rant and propose a replacement for banks?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Michael
Not the CFO, VP, Corporate Controller. CFO is my next job.

Who just happened to spend all night Thursday with investment bankers and lawyers doing the offering circular and indenture document for this:

A small loan

But that's ok, it is the internet, everyone is an expert.

Michael

ps - one of my main areas of middle ages history research was/is the Knights Templar who were bankers ....

omg YOU gonna be rich the CFO there makes 640K + whatever. I knew I should have gone MBA instead of sciences.

 

[gigapet]

You cant blame system for people having debt. Do you think debt did not exist before the banking system was created?[/quote]


yeah I still owe you two pigs for that cow you gave me.

Give me another reason why debt is increasing so rapidly?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: gigapet
You cant blame system for people having debt. Do you think debt did not exist before the banking system was created?

yeah I still owe you two pigs for that cow you gave me.

Give me another reason why debt is increasing so rapidly?[/quote]

Is it increasing rapidly? Please provide some numbers.

 

[gigapet]

So when are you going to end the rant and propose a replacement for banks?

I already did.......I said banks arent the problem. Banks being allowed to issue money they dont have and charge interest on it is the problem. THe US government reliance on the privatized banks to Issue currency and then put the interest fees from the created fiat money, on the backs of the people in the form of increasing taxes is the problem.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: gigapet

So when are you going to end the rant and propose a replacement for banks?

I already did.......I said banks arent the problem. Banks being allowed to issue money they dont have and charge interest on it is the problem. THe US government reliance on the privatized banks to Issue currency and then put the interest fees from the created fiat money, on the backs of the people in the form of increasing taxes is the problem.

Ok, So if banks dont charge interest, how do they make money?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Michael
More and more households are having debt problems because the power of derivitives and distribution has made debt much more "democratic" and available. Credit Cards being the prime example.

Mortgage debt is probably "good" debt. Credit Card debt that came from a night on the town that you're paying for months later is a poor decision. The decisions have been pushed down low enough that people with no clue are making really dumb choices. However, do you think they'll accept you taking the right to make the choice away from them?

Michael

Exactly. One of my big worries is that eventually someone will push through Congress (under the guise of "predatory lending," I am sure

) the idea that there should only be ONE rate for consumers. *shudders*

Given the credit line, most people I met are just about downright stupid when it comes to borrowing. Doing mortgage refinancing, a favorite is to see a person who is literally buried in high-rate revolving credit card debt (by which I mean more than half their yearly income, which I see daily), but is terrified to refinance because he's worried about paying a "high" rate (when mortgage rates are at all-time lows) or tax-deductible fees. If their stupidity wasn't so sad, it'd be laughable. My favorite is when they tell me that they're gonna pay off their credit card debt "in a couple of years." The overall mismanagement, stupidity, and denial.... sigh... the worst are the ones who think they're smart.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: charrison
Ok, So if banks dont charge interest, how do they make money?

They're supposed to operate as a public service, didn't you know?

Of course, gigapet still expects to be paid for whatever it is that he does for a living.

 

[gigapet]

not sure how accurate these numbers are cuz the are just statistics but here are two sources

http://www.abiworld.org/legis/testimony/97apr11.html

http://money.guardian.co.uk/smartspendingforchristmas/story/0,11127,859554,00.html