who owns a Honda CBR 600? I'm pretty much set on getting one as a first bike.

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
How is it you have all that experience but don't know how a slipper clutch or steering dampener works?



My qualm is you acting like a slipper clutch and steering damper are 'safety devices' that can aid a new rider... This is like saying traction control on a Lambo makes it safe for a 16 year old to drift through intersections... You're using completely flawed logic.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
What's really funny is that report is probably twice as old as you are. There weren't even bikes really anywhere near as capable as todays bikes when that report was conducted let alone published. I owned a 750cc Honda motorcycle from that era and my 2008 SV650 blows it away in EVERY category.

And, FTR, that website did NONE of the research.

Yup the Hurt report started in 1979...

before I was born!
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
My qualm is you acting like a slipper clutch and steering damper are 'safety devices' that can aid a new rider... This is like saying traction control on a Lambo makes it safe for a 16 year old to drift through intersections... You're using completely flawed logic.

They aren't safety devices, you're right. Well, the steering dampener I think is just as much a safety device as it is performance.

My point about them is that a new rider, especially one that is new to a manual transmission could very likely downshift too far and it WILL help him and possibly save his ass.

A new rider might also freak out if he gets some head shake. Steering dampener could help out big time and save a painful wreck.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
What have you provided other than your own biased opinion?

"The more time goes by, the less things look different. Riders today have the same sort of accidents as riders in the 1970s, except that today they crash much more expensive bikes."

A quote from the professor that actually did the survey.

EDIT: The slipper clutch and the steering dampener on my bike are pretty hard evidence for the safety features my bike has over a 250/500 ninja. Do you need pictures?

They aren't intended to be safety features, they are intended to be performance enhancers, the damper is there because the bike is running a steeper rake and less trail to enhance the handling on a circuit, and this behaviour can be counter productive in the real world (tank slappers). The slipper clutch is intended to allow you to bang down several gears while hard on the brakes without locking the rear, getting that nice sideways drift going that holden is so interested in...

Neither are characteristics or features a noob should be exploring...

Also your statistics only say "larger capacity bikes", and doesn't state what a larger capacity is... I would not consider 600cc to be a larger capacity bike nowadays... (I would think that to be >1000cc).
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
Explain to me how a new rider is safer on a bike that he's more likely to crash?

BTW-Most countries in Europe won't let new riders ride a bike bigger than 250cc in displacement. They have a graduated licensing system there that takes riders up in levels over the course of a few years before they can get a bike over 600cc...I wonder why that is?

Yeah, I know about the graduated licensing, but it's still a more relevent statistic than the ones you have been making up in your head.

It's not that a new rider will be more likely to crash on a specific bike. A new rider will be more likely to crash because they are a new rider.

Yet supersports are still crashed more often than cruisers (which don't have any of the devices you are talking about).

Where did that statistic come from? Hell, even your extremely vague and not biased at all motorcycleCRUISER.com (cough cough) lumps it into crashed & stolen. Not crashed.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
Explain to me how a new rider is safer on a bike that he's more likely to crash?

BTW-Most countries in Europe won't let new riders ride a bike bigger than 250cc in displacement. They have a graduated licensing system there that takes riders up in levels over the course of a few years before they can get a bike over 600cc...I wonder why that is?

The UK limit you to 125cc until you get your licence, then limit you to a 33 BHP bike for 2 years.
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
The slipper clutch is intended to allow you to bang down several gears while hard on the brakes without locking the rear, getting that nice sideways drift going that holden is so interested in...


So the slipper is designed to make a bike drift... That I didn't know. Any short drifts I have seen usually end up in a high side once they get traction back.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
So the slipper is designed to make a bike drift... That I didn't know. Any short drifts I have seen usually end up in a high side once they get traction back.

*facepalm*
I didn't say they were designed to make a bike drift.

Look up backing it in...

Rossi
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
A new rider might also freak out if he gets some head shake. Steering dampener could help out big time and save a painful wreck.

You know what also prevents head shake? Not having the bike's steering geometry set up for twitchy, track-biased steering response.

The steering damper (a "steering dampener" would do what, make the triple tree slightly moist?) is used to counteract the inherent stability problems that occur when I bike's fork geometry is so heavily biased towards track use that it is likely to become a liability in street use. The only reason steering dampers are used today is because of very aggressive fork geometry on supersports; this induces inherent instability, which is fantastic for making quick direction changes, but also causes the bike to be more squirrely over road imperfections (grates, grooves, etc) and makes proper control more difficult.

The reason that 250s and 500s don't have steering dampers is because they have different, less-aggressive fork geometry that isn't vulnerable to the same drawbacks as the much more aggressive (and much less conducive to stability) fork geometry on supersports. Having a steering damper is an indication that the bike is going to be more twitchy than most and, as a result, is significantly less than optimal for a novice rider attempting to develop his skills.

ZV
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
You can get head shake on a Harley 883.

As for the road imperfections my 600 is not any worse than my 650r was. If it is, it's such a slight difference that it's imperceptible or handles it actually better.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
You can get head shake on a Harley 883.

As for the road imperfections my 600 is not any worse than my 650r was. If it is, it's such a slight difference that it's imperceptible or handles it actually better.

That is because the damper is doing its job.

Take the damper off and try it again...

Actually don't...
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91

The Hurt Report. Good data. Let's look at what you find potentially damning for the "don't start out on a supersport" crowd.

7. The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision.

This is quite true; motorists not seeing motorcycles is the largest single cause of accidents. However, this doesn't say anything at all about what how the sportiness of a motorcycle affects the likelihood of a novice rider error.

Citing this as evidence that supersports are good beginner bikes is a bit like responding to someone who says that it's dangerous to intentionally swim with sharks by saying that more people are killed by lightning. Technically true, but not relevant to whether or not swimming with sharks increases one's danger while swimming.

15. The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph.

It may be simple unfamiliarity with statistics that is making you quote this one. A "median" is not an average; rather the median is the point at which half the data are below and half above. The fact that the median is low while the 1 in 1,000 value is high suggests that the bell curve is highly skewed with a long tail. This means that of those crashes below the median, most are going to be close to the median speed, while those crashes above the median speed are likely to be significantly above the median value.

It would be interesting to find out what the actual arithmetic mean pre-crash speed was as that, together with the median, would provide still more insight on the actual shape of the bell curve. In any case, it is statistically safe to assume that the arithmetic mean is higher than the median.

Even if these values were the mean, they still do not address the actual argument against supersports as beginner bikes. No-one has said that a novice rider will crash at high speeds. Rather, what has been repeatedly said is that supersports are much more sensitive to rider input and are twitchier. Come around a 30 mph corner in second and give it too much and it's easier to low-side a supersport. That crash would be right at the median speed, but it's more likely with a supersport than with a standard.

19. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly over-represented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly under represented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycle riders are significantly over represented in the accident data.

Agreed. However, see my response with the analogy of sharks and lightning. These data don't contradict anything the "don't start on a supersport" crowd has said.

23. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly under represented in the accident data.

Agreed. However, see my response with the analogy of sharks and lightning. These data don't contradict anything the "don't start on a supersport" crowd has said.

30. The large displacement motorcycles are under represented in accidents but they are associated with higher injury severity when involved in accidents.

This requires understanding the timeframe in which the data were gathered.

In the late 1970's, the only manufacturer with bikes that were consistently over 750cc was Harley Davidson. In fact, aside from dedicated racing bikes, Harley hasn't made anything smaller than an 883cc bike since 1953, which was the last year of the 750cc K-model Sportsters. The "superbikes" of the era were 750cc UJMs with just under 70 hp. The "large displacement motorcycles" of the Hurt Report are not high-power sportbikes, but big, slow-revving cruisers with a smattering of 4-cylinder UJMs thrown in.

It's vitally important to understand data in context. When taken in context, none of these data you've cited offer any contradictions to the advice of "don't start out on a supersport" and by attempting to rely on these data to support your position, all you've done is demonstrate that you don't understand the data in the first place.

ZV
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
You can get head shake on a Harley 883.

Unless you've damaged the fork or the head the only way you're going to be getting head shake on an 883 is if you're riding rather ridiculously above the speed limit. The people I've ridden with who have experienced head shake on Sporties have all been riding ton up when it started.

The greater rake and additional trail of cruisers and standards renders them many orders of magnitude less susceptible to head shake than supersports and no amount of attempted diversion on your part will change that fact.

ZV
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,210
6,422
136
Once again, you dance around any hard evidence and instead go with subtle insults and a paragraph that amounts to no real information other than your narrow minded opinion.

One thing I have found looking for more information on the matter. The IIHS, the same people that more than likely put biased information into your head also want to outlaw Ninja 250s... It was on their list of factory race bikes that should be illegal.

Why is IIHS information biased? How did you come to this conclusion? I'm very curious, those stats are used pretty much universally, and if the data is tainted, then there is no good crash data available.

I completely disagree with just about everything else you've said, and I doubt your basic understanding of how motorcycles work. A steering dampener is not safety equipment, it's used to correct a defect in front end design. A slipper clutch could be loosely considered a safety device, but anyone who depends on it working is going to go down. A damp spot on the road, a small bit of gravel or even a painted line will still allow the rear wheel to skid in a hard downshift. I know because I've done it. In the interest of fairness, I will say that it wasn't on an SS, I was riding a V-twin with an 11.5:1 compression ratio, it will do some very hard down shifting.
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
The Hurt Report. Good data. Let's look at what you find potentially damning for the "don't start out on a supersport" crowd.



This is quite true; motorists not seeing motorcycles is the largest single cause of accidents. However, this doesn't say anything at all about what how the sportiness of a motorcycle affects the likelihood of a novice rider error.

Citing this as evidence that supersports are good beginner bikes is a bit like responding to someone who says that it's dangerous to intentionally swim with sharks by saying that more people are killed by lightning. Technically true, but not relevant to whether or not swimming with sharks increases one's danger while swimming.

All this is meant to show is that you will get hit by another car regardless of what bike you ride.

It may be simple unfamiliarity with statistics that is making you quote this one. A "median" is not an average; rather the median is the point at which half the data are below and half above. The fact that the median is low while the 1 in 1,000 value is high suggests that the bell curve is highly skewed with a long tail. This means that of those crashes below the median, most are going to be close to the median speed, while those crashes above the median speed are likely to be significantly above the median value.

It would be interesting to find out what the actual arithmetic mean pre-crash speed was as that, together with the median, would provide still more insight on the actual shape of the bell curve. In any case, it is statistically safe to assume that the arithmetic mean is higher than the median.

Even if these values were the mean, they still do not address the actual argument against supersports as beginner bikes. No-one has said that a novice rider will crash at high speeds. Rather, what has been repeatedly said is that supersports are much more sensitive to rider input and are twitchier. Come around a 30 mph corner in second and give it too much and it's easier to low-side a supersport. That crash would be right at the median speed, but it's more likely with a supersport than with a standard.

I agree that the math here could do to be looked at more closely. I understand what a median is. I quoted the quotes because I thought they were interesting, not only because I thought they backed up anything that I was arguing.

I really don't think coming around a corner on my 600 is less safe than my 650 non supersport. My 600 has better traction, also has the better suspension. The 650 had more torque at lower RPMs. Unless I'm hitting the corner at more than 8,000 RPMS on my 600, it would be VERY difficult to accidentally give it too much and low side. Power below 8,000 RPM on that bike is far from overwhelming. If I am going at 8,000 RPMs I'm going about 40 MPH in first gear anyway. Coming around a corner in second would be even harder to give it too much.

The 650r, I could actually see someone giving that a little too much in a low speed corner on accident. The 600, you have to be trying to take that corner way faster than you should anyway. I guess you could come around a 30 MPH corner doing 70, and maybe goose it too much. You've got bigger problems than touchy throttle if you are taking curves that fast on public roads though.

Agreed. However, see my response with the analogy of sharks and lightning. These data don't contradict anything the "don't start on a supersport" crowd has said.

Actually it does contradict what the "don't start on a supersport" crowd is saying. It says that age is a significant factor in accidents. The DSOASS crowd is recommending a 250r to anyone regardless of age and implying that the supersport bike alone is a cause of accidents.

Agreed. However, see my response with the analogy of sharks and lightning. These data don't contradict anything the "don't start on a supersport" crowd has said.

It does contradict the DSOASS crowd. Anyone starting out on a bike is more likely to get in a wreck regardless of what bike they are on. People have said that arguing with the DSOASS crowd just to have it dismissed as phooey.

It also contradicts something that I had thought. I didn't really think my dirt bike experience helped me out all that much. Total different style of riding. Apparently it does however.

This requires understanding the timeframe in which the data were gathered.

In the late 1970's, the only manufacturer with bikes that were consistently over 750cc was Harley Davidson. In fact, aside from dedicated racing bikes, Harley hasn't made anything smaller than an 883cc bike since 1953, which was the last year of the 750cc K-model Sportsters. The "superbikes" of the era were 750cc UJMs with just under 70 hp. The "large displacement motorcycles" of the Hurt Report are not high-power sportbikes, but big, slow-revving cruisers with a smattering of 4-cylinder UJMs thrown in.

It's vitally important to understand data in context. When taken in context, none of these data you've cited offer any contradictions to the advice of "don't start out on a supersport" and by attempting to rely on these data to support your position, all you've done is demonstrate that you don't understand the data in the first place.

ZV

Timeframe isn't 2000-2010. /shrug It's the closest the US has to viable statistics on the matter. Also, the professor in charge seems to think that it's still viable.

I tried to find the best information available on the subject that wasn't the normal forum speculation filled with people getting butt hurt because someone dares point out the flaws in their arguments.

The only other credible information that I could find available was the MAIDS. It doesn't fit the US all that well though due to differences in laws. One thing that it did have that I thought was interesting was that the most accidents seem to come from modified scooters... I'm not saying that is anything to tell on the mountain, I just think it shows even more that it's the person, not the bike.

It's nice that you actually had some substance to your post though and didn't just come off with insults because you don't have a leg to stand on like some others.

Even if those statistics aren't the best, they are better than the imaginary ones spewed out by the DSOASS crowd.
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
Why is IIHS information biased? How did you come to this conclusion? I'm very curious, those stats are used pretty much universally, and if the data is tainted, then there is no good crash data available.

I completely disagree with just about everything else you've said, and I doubt your basic understanding of how motorcycles work. A steering dampener is not safety equipment, it's used to correct a defect in front end design. A slipper clutch could be loosely considered a safety device, but anyone who depends on it working is going to go down. A damp spot on the road, a small bit of gravel or even a painted line will still allow the rear wheel to skid in a hard downshift. I know because I've done it. In the interest of fairness, I will say that it wasn't on an SS, I was riding a V-twin with an 11.5:1 compression ratio, it will do some very hard down shifting.

The IIHS didn't collect data to get a result, they fashioned their study to get the result they wanted. The ninja 250r is/was on their list of factory race bikes that need to be outlawed. That should tell you something. If you actually look into their motorcycle study you'd be hard pressed not to come to the same conclusion.

It's not a defect in front end design that makes a need for a damper. The bikes are designed to handle better around the corners. Bikes with a design like most supersports are more prone to headshake, but any bike can experience it and a damper will help.

Slipper clutch will help help if a new rider accidentally downshifts too far. Why it was designed is moot.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,574
972
126
I quoted the quotes because I thought they were interesting, not only because I thought they backed up anything that I was arguing.

They don't.

I really don't think coming around a corner on my 600 is less safe than my 650 non supersport. My 600 has better traction, also has the better suspension. The 650 had more torque at lower RPMs. Unless I'm hitting the corner at more than 8,000 RPMS on my 600, it would be VERY difficult to accidentally give it too much and low side. Power below 8,000 RPM on that bike is far from overwhelming. If I am going at 8,000 RPMs I'm going about 40 MPH in first gear anyway. Coming around a corner in second would be even harder to give it too much.

Of course it isn't...nobody here is arguing that it is. Just that it is less forgiving to rider inputs than a bike that is not a supersport. Better suspension is subjective. Entry level bikes have soft suspension that is not optimal to track days but it is perfectly adequate for street riding and inexperienced riders to learn on...and it is very forgiving.

Actually it does contradict what the "don't start on a supersport" crowd is saying. It says that age is a significant factor in accidents. The DSOASS crowd is recommending a 250r to anyone regardless of age and implying that the supersport bike alone is a cause of accidents.

Age really has nothing to do with experience when it comes to riding. There is NO substitute for experience and you can't get experience when you're dead. Fact is, supersports tend to appeal to younger riders and younger riders generally have less experience. Again, you're putting the guys with the least experience on the bikes that really demand the most. I guess if you live in a flat area with mostly straight roads then a supersport is just another point and shoot drag bike and the only curves you have to worry about are the entrances to your local Starbucks parking lot or the side road to your parent's house but around here we have hills and twisty mountain roads and canyons which is no place for a n00b on a supersport.

I'm curious, where do you live?
 
Last edited:

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,210
6,422
136
The IIHS didn't collect data to get a result, they fashioned their study to get the result they wanted. The ninja 250r is/was on their list of factory race bikes that need to be outlawed. That should tell you something. If you actually look into their motorcycle study you'd be hard pressed not to come to the same conclusion.

It's not a defect in front end design that makes a need for a damper. The bikes are designed to handle better around the corners. Bikes with a design like most supersports are more prone to headshake, but any bike can experience it and a damper will help.

Slipper clutch will help help if a new rider accidentally downshifts too far. Why it was designed is moot.

I'm going to go ahead and say that a bike that is prone to head shake has a design flaw. It could well be an acceptable trade off on a race bike, on a street bike it's damn poor design. A car with high speed wobbles would be recalled and corrected, the criteria for a bike should be even more stringent.

For the record, a damper is the little door in a chimney that keeps air out when you're not having a fire, a dampener is a device that slows or softens mechanical movement.
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
They don't.



Of course it isn't...nobody here is arguing that it is. Just that it is less forgiving to rider inputs than a bike that is not a supersport. Better suspension is subjective. Entry level bikes have soft suspension that is not optimal to track days but it is perfectly adequate for street riding and inexperienced riders to learn on...and it is very forgiving.



Age really has nothing to do with experience when it comes to riding. There is NO substitute for experience and you can't get experience when you're dead. Fact is, supersports tend to appeal to younger riders and younger riders generally have less experience. Again, you're putting the guys with the least experience on the bikes that really demand the most. I guess if you live in a flat area with mostly straight roads then a supersport is just another point and shoot drag bike and the only curves you have to worry about are the entrances to your local Starbucks parking lot or the side road to your parent's house but around here we have hills and twisty mountain roads and canyons which is no place for a n00b on a supersport.

I'm curious, where do you live?

I live in western colorado. In a little town on the 70 called Parachute. You'd be hard pressed to find a place in the US with more twisties than what I have access too.

A "entry" level bike is less forgiving to SOME rider inputs. The mistake of thinking ALL rider inputs is classic if you don't ride a supersport. If I had only read the forums here, I would think the same way. Fortunately I had the opportunity to be riding an "entry" level bike one day, and my supersport the next. Same roads, same me. Only difference is the bike so I had a decent comparison.

Age is the one thing that you really can't argue. I didn't come upon a single source that didn't site age as being a major factor.

You've said it yourself how much faster you take the corners than the "n00bs" on supersports. If they wreck on the curves it's going to be more than likely they are wrecking trying to keep up with someone like you and driving faster than they normally would.

For some reason when most "n00b" riders enter a corner there is a strange red light shining from the rear of their bike, followed by severe speed loss...

I've only got 6,000 ish miles of streetbike experience. Haven't wrecked once. The only close calls have been other drivers not seeing me.

Maybe it's my age, maybe the dirtbike experience or maybe luck. It can be done though and motorcycles are not one size fits all. Blindly recommending low end bikes to everyone is going to end up costing people money and enjoyment they could be getting.

If you or anyone else was really that concerned about safety, you wouldn't ride a bike. Look at some of the statistics car vs bike. They dwarf even the made up statistics about supersports.

Take the MSF.
Wear your gear.
Ride responsibly.
Watch out for other drivers.

If someone follows those easy steps, I think they are going to be OK, regardless the bike they are on.
 

madeuce

Member
Jul 22, 2010
194
0
0
For the record, a damper is the little door in a chimney that keeps air out when you're not having a fire, a dampener is a device that slows or softens mechanical movement.

You got to wrestle big Z for that one. I had a stove growing up that had a damper. I was spelling it wrong before too. Ohlins website spells it "damper"
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
For the record, a damper is the little door in a chimney that keeps air out when you're not having a fire

That's one definition, yes.

a dampener is a device that slows or softens mechanical movement.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/damper

Definition of DAMPER

1: a dulling or deadening influence <put a damper on the celebration>

2: a device that damps: as

a : a valve or plate (as in the flue of a furnace) for regulating the draft
b : a small felted block to stop the vibration of a piano string
c chiefly British : shock absorber
;)

Every parts store calls them "dampers". Honda calls them "dampers". &#214;hlins calls them "dampers". If you google "steering dampener", it returns no results and asks if you meant to search for "steering damper".

"Dampener" is a colloquial mispronunciation, like saying "tahr" instead of "tire".

ZV