Who needs a warrant when you've got a hunch?

[Nintendesert]

WASHINGTON (CBSDC/AP) — U.S. border agents should continue to be allowed to search a traveler’s laptop, cellphone or other electronic device and keep copies of any data on them based on no more than a hunch, according to an internal Homeland Security Department study. It contends limiting such searches would prevent the U.S. from detecting child pornographers or terrorists and expose the government to lawsuits.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013...tops-phones-can-be-searched-based-on-hunches/


Sorry to all the defenders of this stuff, I have a reputable link!


This kind of stuff is getting pretty ridiculous, I can only hope we can eventually come together and start focusing on civil liberties again instead of this totalitarian wannabe 1984 State we have going.

It's really not hard to get a warrant in this country, and to think that is still too much for the DHS tells you just how weak these data seizures are.

The 23-page report, obtained by The Associated Press and the American Civil Liberties Union under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act, provides a rare glimpse of the Obama administration’s thinking on the long-standing but controversial practice of border agents and immigration officers searching and in some cases holding for weeks or months the digital devices of anyone trying to enter the U.S.

Good on the ACLU and AP, hopefully they don't get audited and harassed for this stuff now. :\

 

[Fern]

Hmmm. Was about to get 'outraged' but I'm a little ambivalent about this after thinking a moment.

We've always searched people crossing the border into the U.S. All countries do it too. I have no problem with that.

Keeping backups? IDK what should be done. I don't see any way that all that data can be searched at crossing. I don't think we just drop searching data. We can't prohibit people from carrying in laptops etc.

If keeping backups isn't the solution, what is?

Fern

 

[Matt1970]

I think you are pretty much consenting to a search by crossing the border. Same as at an airport when they tell you to go through a metal detector and ask you to take you shoes off. Keeping data from your devices is hardly border control though.

 

[BoberFett]

We must protect children from child pornographers. We will kill every child to do it if we must, but child pornographers must be stopped.

 

[Nintendesert]

Hmmm. Was about to get 'outraged' but I'm a little ambivalent about this after thinking a moment.

We've always searched people crossing the border into the U.S. All countries do it too. I have no problem with that.

Keeping backups? IDK what should be done. I don't see any way that all that data can be searched at crossing. I don't think we just drop searching data. We can't prohibit people from carrying in laptops etc.

If keeping backups isn't the solution, what is?

Fern

I don't think the border is the place to do electronic searches. Border searches are usually quick and thorough but searching through data is neither.

I don't like the idea of the government making copies of people's data, the potential for abuse there is enormous in regards to embarrassing information being released, trade secrets, maybe even putting people at risk when fleeing another country. I question the controls in place to safeguard people's information when information is simply being copied.

I think the worse part of the border search exception is that it's applicable 100 miles into the USA.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/10/aclu-assails-10/

My greater concern is that we're not moving on a path to protect civil liberties but instead going towards more totalitarian methods to try and fight terrorists etc. These little known laws and the overly grey areas of the law in regards to data security and retention in these cases is just ripe for abuse.

If copying data is deemed ok, there really is no technological hurdle in copying EVERYONE's data since no probable cause or reason is required to do so under the law. This to me is very scary as that can also be applied 100 miles into the USA with existing laws.

 

[Fern]

I've traveled abroad a lot. They've always been able to check all your stuff if they felt like it. The difference is that with digital tech you carry so much more.

I've been stopped at borders for hours. I've had every inch of my vehicle searched, my luggage and clothes gone through to make sure nothing was hidden there etc.

I don't think we can let people come and go without searching laptops etc. Heck, the most valuable property is intellectual prop and that is all digital now.

Fern

 

[brycejones]

The company I work for is now basically providing "burner" laptops that are stripped of data for international travel. Protects against losses overseas and also limits any exposure when crossing the boarder. The one issue that I have is that I believe they are also claiming the same right to search within 20-30 miles of the boarder. While I don't think it should extend past the port of entry.

 

[PokerGuy]

Hmmm. Was about to get 'outraged' but I'm a little ambivalent about this after thinking a moment.

We've always searched people crossing the border into the U.S. All countries do it too. I have no problem with that.

Keeping backups? IDK what should be done. I don't see any way that all that data can be searched at crossing. I don't think we just drop searching data. We can't prohibit people from carrying in laptops etc.

If keeping backups isn't the solution, what is?

Fern

Without evidence of a crime, why should data be searched at all? If there is reason to believe there has been a crime committed, then by all means, get a warrant and search away. What logical reason is there to allow searches of electronic data (which is not bound by borders anyway) at a physical border crossing over and above what is otherwise allowed?

For example, if an officer walks up to you and has no reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, why should that officer be able to search all your electronic data? By what logic should it be different for a border agent?

 

[PokerGuy]

The one issue that I have is that I believe they are also claiming the same right to search within 20-30 miles of the boarder. While I don't think it should extend past the port of entry.

I don't see any logic in it existing at the point of entry either. If you want to move data in and out of the country, there are a million ways to do it, you don't have to physically move with anything in your possession. Why should the border agents have more access to searching for data than any other agency?

 

[Thebobo]

Can they read any paper stuff they want to?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Whole Disk Encryption. go fuck yourself FBI/DHS/*insert gov't entity here*

 

[Exterous]

I've traveled abroad a lot. They've always been able to check all your stuff if they felt like it. The difference is that with digital tech you carry so much more.

I've been stopped at borders for hours. I've had every inch of my vehicle searched, my luggage and clothes gone through to make sure nothing was hidden there etc.

I don't think we can let people come and go without searching laptops etc. Heck, the most valuable property is intellectual prop and that is all digital now.

Fern

How long did they keep items you brought with you that violated no laws? Would you be upset if they kept all your luggage for 11 days for no reason? A cursory or even detailed 3 hour check is one thing - detaining non-prohibited items for days is another, let alone keeping a copy

Edit: From another thread:

I'm generally against the govt being able to seize any property (except contraband that must be destroyed).

Seizing without Due Process is an outrage.

Fern

Unless its at the boarder?

 

[Fern]

Without evidence of a crime, why should data be searched at all?

A country has the right to secure it's borders.

Have you every tried to import/export products etc? They have every right to go through all your stuff. Every right. Every country does it.

This is not about the 4th amendment etc. Searching persons and their property passing a border is constitutional and has been since before the Constitution.

Simply put securing border and controlling what crosses =/= search as in criminal investigation. They are two separate things.

If there is reason to believe there has been a crime committed, then by all means, get a warrant and search away. What logical reason is there to allow searches of electronic data (which is not bound by borders anyway) at a physical border crossing over and above what is otherwise allowed?

For example, if an officer walks up to you and has no reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, why should that officer be able to search all your electronic data? By what logic should it be different for a border agent?

I've already mention how the the criminal investigation 'perspective' is not entirely relevant.

When you cross the border in a semi truck they have every right to, and often do, completely search it to make there is no contraband or items forbidden to be brought in (fruit and veg).

Likewise with digital info, whether it be kiddie porn or bomb making instructions etc.

Fern

 

[Fern]

I don't see any logic in it existing at the point of entry either. If you want to move data in and out of the country, there are a million ways to do it, you don't have to physically move with anything in your possession. Why should the border agents have more access to searching for data than any other agency?

LOL, unless I'm paranoid or misunderstanding what I've been reading seems like any number of govt agencies now have access to everything sent over the internet (or even looked at).

I'm no internet tech but given that the govt seems to be able to check through everything that passes through the internet I've wondered if bringing in plans for bomb or chemical weapons etc intended for a terrorist attack wouldn't be better passed along by bringing in a laptop or removable drive etc.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Can they read any paper stuff they want to?

Yep.

Fern

 

[Fern]

How long did they keep items you brought with you that violated no laws? Would you be upset if they kept all your luggage for 11 days for no reason? A cursory or even detailed 3 hour check is one thing - detaining non-prohibited items for days is another, let alone keeping a copy

How is border patrol supposed to thoroughly search through such (potentially) large databases? ( That's what I've been talking about. See my post #2 at the top of the thread.)

Anyway, to answer your question most of my international travel was done before PCs and the internet got big and, even afterwards, I've never traveled with a laptop etc.

There is no reason to keep luggage for 11 days, it can searched in much less time than that.

Edit: From another thread:

Originally Posted by Fern View Post
I'm generally against the govt being able to seize any property (except contraband that must be destroyed).

Seizing without Due Process is an outrage.

Unless its at the boarder?

They're not seizing anything. They're just taking a copy so they can search while you go on your way.

While I have a problem with it, I don't know of a better solution.

Fern

 

[momeNt]

Boogey men, the ultimate policy tool.

 

[Kadarin]

Those child pornographers are everywhere... It's a good thing someone is thinking of the children, even at the expense of everything that once made this country great.

 

[bshole]

Searching persons and their property passing a border is constitutional and has been since before the Constitution.

Now that is just silly.

 

[nehalem256]

Yep.

Fern

Can they make photocopies of the papers for backup?

 

[Fern]

Now that is just silly.

Why?

A country has the right to control its borders and what passes through them. If it didn't there wouldn't be such things tariffs or visa permits required for non-citizens to enter.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Can they make photocopies of the papers for backup?

In my experience they just examined them.

I sat locked in a cell for a few hours while they did it.

IDK, but my guess is that if you tried to pass thru with thousands of pages that looked suspicious you'd be hanging out in detention until they were satisfied.

Fern

 

[bshole]

Fern,

Searching persons and their property passing a border is constitutional and has been since before the Constitution.

How can something be constitutional before there is a constitution? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[PokerGuy]

A country has the right to secure it's borders.

Have you every tried to import/export products etc? They have every right to go through all your stuff. Every right. Every country does it.

This is not about the 4th amendment etc. Searching persons and their property passing a border is constitutional and has been since before the Constitution.

Simply put securing border and controlling what crosses =/= search as in criminal investigation. They are two separate things.

I agree with that assessment as it relates to physical items, but as it relates to data, that doesn't make sense. There is no "securing the border" aspect to checking the data because the data knows no borders anyway, it can enter/exit anywhere at any time. If I'm 'smuggling' some piece of data, I don't need to physically take it across the border, I can store it anywhere and access it from anywhere. Physical tangible items are another story. It looks to me like it's just an open door for border control agents to go on a fishing expedition when they feel like it, with no justification needed.

Further, when someone searches me when going across the border, it's a search of what you have. If someone takes your data and goes through it, it's a potential search of a lot of aspects of your life that have nothing to do with borders nor safety, but yet they'll make a copy and keep your information in perpetuity with no recourse for you.

I'm about as "law enforcement oriented" as they come, but I don't see a logical justification for the rules in place.

 

[Exterous]

How is border patrol supposed to thoroughly search through such (potentially) large databases? ( That's what I've been talking about. See my post #2 at the top of the thread.)

A side note - I wonder how this copying works with copyright and IP laws. Seems like there would be a huge conflict of interest there. Clearly this would need to be decided by a court but I would go under the opinion that if they can't investigate it at the time of the search they have no recourse to keep the data.

There is no reason to keep luggage for 11 days, it can searched in much less time than that.

They're not seizing anything. They're just taking a copy so they can search while you go on your way.

From the article:

student Pascal Abidor, whose laptop was detained for 11 days along the Canadian border,

How long do they get to keep the laptop so they can search it even though they have no warrant or legal case against the person in question?