Who is the #2 hitter in the MLB?

[eber]

Originally posted by: cmdavid
its pujols.. i think that pujols is a better hitter than bonds...

I agree...Pujols is the more complete hitter able to hit to all fields with power.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: faenix
The result is in. RabidMongoose > SP33Demon.

But we knew that anyway.

It's weird seeing SP33Demon hating anything else but the Yankees.

Ahh change. It's wonderful 🙂

I think he might hate Bonds more than he hates the Yankees...

 

[kalster]

but the real question is who is the 2nd best hitter who is not on drugs 😉

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
You're only looking at batting average..not to mention that these are incredibly small sample sizes per team...so little that they are essentially meaningless.

Barry Bonds has a 1.000+ OPS against every team except a few this season...Boston, Chicago Cubs (where he has a .900+ OPS against), Tampa Bay, and St. Louis.

You haven't really shown anything.

Ummm.... I've shown that a over a third of his AB's came against sht teams where he batted ridiculously high in BA dept. I've also shown that almost a third of his total AB's against teams with good starting pitching he has struggled against in the BA dept. Ignore OPS for a second here (obviously his OPS is inflated b/c of the bullsht intentional walks) and let's just say: theoretically speaking, that IF the good teams and the bad teams actually pitched to Bonds, Bonds would struggle alot more against the good pitching teams. Maybe I'm just crazy, but a third of his AB's against good/bad teams are hardly a small sample size (they comprise 68% of his total AB's) for his "legendary" and "record breaking" season. :roll:

Ignore OPS? Why only look at AVG? No thanks. I prefer to look at a larger picture than a smaller one.

Yes, teams give Barry Bonds a lot of intentional walks. Do you know why? Maybe it's because he kills them when they actually pitch to him. Can't blame them when the guy has one of the highest single season SLG of all time at .832. If you pitch to him then he is likely going to hurt you. He has already shown it.

Again, Barry Bonds has a 1.000+ OPS against almost every single team. He has a very high SLG against almost all of these teams as well. The reason why he gets so many intentional walks is because he is such a great hitter.

BTW, I like how you have LA listed as a 'sht team' with their #3 overall ranked pitching staff. :roll:

I also like how you are wrong with those intentional walk numbers. :roll: Yes, I am going to check anything that you list.

Your statement that Bonds would struggle more against good teams than poor teams is most likely applicable to every single player. Congrats on stating the obvious. :roll:

Actually, my intentional walk numbers are right, please list which were wrong. Look on mlb.com under Bonds' splits.

Yes, LA is a "sht team" when it comes to pitching. I would hardly list Hideo Nomo with a 7.77 ERA, Jeff Weaver, or Lima who are having good years as great. The only person who is halfway decent is Perez, and maybe Penny if he ever gets to start a game in Dodger blue and can stay healthy for a nanosecond of a season.

It's funny how explaining things to you is sometimes like talking to a preschooler. Again, you have to take away the OPS numbers because they are artificially inflated by intentional walks. IF teams with good pitching actually weren't scared and pitched to him, they would probably be highly successful because Bonds pads most of his stats against sht teams. My facts prove this, that even when Bonds had to hit against them, he had lower than normal batting averages. I don't give a sht about SLG%, we're only talking about how many times Bonds makes an out vs not making an out (i.e. Batting average for the slow). Hence, teams with good pitching should not intentionally walk Bonds yet they still do b/c they are illogically scared of him. It's absolutely a pvssy way out to intentionally walk Bonds if you have good pitching. The bottom line is that MVP players should hit good pitching teams well, for example, look at Manny Ramirez against Oakland: .308 avg in 26AB's, .320 against Anaheim in 25 AB's. The great pure hitters hit both bad pitching and good pitching, it doesn't matter. With Bonds he is less than spectacular against good pitching, and is barely a career .300 hitter even WITH padded stats like Colorado and Arizona throughout his career. This is why I think Bonds is overrated. Well time for bed.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: faenix
The result is in. RabidMongoose > SP33Demon.

But we knew that anyway.

It's weird seeing SP33Demon hating anything else but the Yankees.

Ahh change. It's wonderful 🙂

I've always hated Bonds, ever since the numerous facts came out about his steroid use during his record breaking HR season. I actually used to like watching him pad his stats against the sht teams, now I think he's a disgrace to the game and if Pete Rose is banned for gambling, then so should Bonds for cheating with THG and Winstrol.

I love seeing good pitching make him look stupid, the best was when Billy Wagner threw a fastball 101 and Bonds thought he could hit it. Somebody forgot to tell him he wasn't facing that fearsome Colorado staff that he normally tees off on...

 

[RabidMongoose]

Actually, my intentional walk numbers are right, please list which were wrong. Look on mlb.com under Bonds' splits.

No they aren't. You have his all walks included. Look up the statistics again. You're saying every walk given to Barry Bonds was an IBB.

Yes, LA is a "sht team" when it comes to pitching. I would hardly list Hideo Nomo with a 7.77 ERA, Jeff Weaver, or Lima who are having good years as great. The only person who is halfway decent is Perez, and maybe Penny if he ever gets to start a game in Dodger blue and can stay healthy for a nanosecond of a season.

Yes, LA is such a 'sht team' when they have the third best ERA in the entire game. :roll:

It's funny how explaining things to you is sometimes like talking to a preschooler. Again, you have to take away the OPS numbers because they are artificially inflated by intentional walks

Good idea...punish him for being such a fantastic hitter that he is given a good number of intentional walks!

I get it now...people give an IBB to horrible players!

IF teams with good pitching actually weren't scared and pitched to him, they would probably be highly successful because Bonds pads most of his stats against sht teams.

Yeah, that's why Bonds has great numbers against almost every single team. Why pitch to him when he's most likely going to destroy the ball?

I don't give a sht about SLG%, we're only talking about how many times Bonds makes an out vs not making an out (i.e. Batting average for the slow).

What a great argument you hav here! You don't care about almost half of what a batter does...fantastic!

Batting average is NOT how many times someone makes an out vs. not making an out...that's more accurately described in OBP.

If we're talking about how many times Bonds makes an out vs not making an out, then this conversation is over. Bonds has a .385+ OBP against every single team except one. I guess it pays to have a fantastic batting eye and become so great that you are feared by every team.

Hence, teams with good pitching should not intentionally walk Bonds yet they still do b/c they are illogically scared of him. It's absolutely a pvssy way out to intentionally walk Bonds if you have good pitching.

He already destroys good pitching. Look at his SLG versus these good pitching teams:

Atlanta: .889
NY: 1.067
LA: 1.207
Houston: 1.000

Not many people would want to pitch to that. Of course you want to penalize someone for being so great that teams have learned not to pitch to him.

The bottom line is that MVP players should hit good pitching teams well, for example, look at Manny Ramirez against Oakland: .308 avg in 26AB's, .320 against Anaheim in 25 AB's. The great pure hitters hit both bad pitching and good pitching, it doesn't matter.

Bonds hits both as well. You don't get those SLG numbers and put up one of the best seasons of all time without putting up great numbers all around.

Too bad Manny hasn't won an MVP yet..hopefully he can at least finish as the runner up for once...Bonds has only won six so far... 😉 Not that really means much to me.

With Bonds he is less than spectacular against good pitching, and is barely a career .300 hitter even WITH padded stats like Colorado and Arizona throughout his career. This is why I think Bonds is overrated. Well time for bed.

Yeah, I'm sure Arizona and Colorado padded Bonds' statistics and nobody else's...not to mention the FACT that Bonds has played in hitter's parks as his home parks for almost his entire career!

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Actually, my intentional walk numbers are right, please list which were wrong. Look on mlb.com under Bonds' splits.

No they aren't. You have his all walks included. Look up the statistics again. You're saying every walk given to Barry Bonds was an IBB.

Yes, LA is a "sht team" when it comes to pitching. I would hardly list Hideo Nomo with a 7.77 ERA, Jeff Weaver, or Lima who are having good years as great. The only person who is halfway decent is Perez, and maybe Penny if he ever gets to start a game in Dodger blue and can stay healthy for a nanosecond of a season.

Yes, LA is such a 'sht team' when they have the third best ERA in the entire game. :roll:

It's funny how explaining things to you is sometimes like talking to a preschooler. Again, you have to take away the OPS numbers because they are artificially inflated by intentional walks

Good idea...punish him for being such a fantastic hitter that he is given a good number of intentional walks!

I get it now...people give an IBB to horrible players!

IF teams with good pitching actually weren't scared and pitched to him, they would probably be highly successful because Bonds pads most of his stats against sht teams.

Yeah, that's why Bonds has great numbers against almost every single team. Why pitch to him when he's most likely going to destroy the ball?

I don't give a sht about SLG%, we're only talking about how many times Bonds makes an out vs not making an out (i.e. Batting average for the slow).

What a great argument you hav here! You don't care about almost half of what a batter does...fantastic!

Batting average is NOT how many times someone makes an out vs. not making an out...that's more accurately described in OBP.

If we're talking about how many times Bonds makes an out vs not making an out, then this conversation is over. Bonds has a .385+ OBP against every single team except one. I guess it pays to have a fantastic batting eye and become so great that you are feared by every team.

Hence, teams with good pitching should not intentionally walk Bonds yet they still do b/c they are illogically scared of him. It's absolutely a pvssy way out to intentionally walk Bonds if you have good pitching.

He already destroys good pitching. Look at his SLG versus these good pitching teams:

Atlanta: .889
NY: 1.067
LA: 1.207
Houston: 1.000

Not many people would want to pitch to that. Of course you want to penalize someone for being so great that teams have learned not to pitch to him.

The bottom line is that MVP players should hit good pitching teams well, for example, look at Manny Ramirez against Oakland: .308 avg in 26AB's, .320 against Anaheim in 25 AB's. The great pure hitters hit both bad pitching and good pitching, it doesn't matter.

Bonds hits both as well. You don't get those SLG numbers and put up one of the best seasons of all time without putting up great numbers all around.

Too bad Manny hasn't won an MVP yet..hopefully he can at least finish as the runner up for once...Bonds has only won six so far... 😉 Not that really means much to me.

With Bonds he is less than spectacular against good pitching, and is barely a career .300 hitter even WITH padded stats like Colorado and Arizona throughout his career. This is why I think Bonds is overrated. Well time for bed.

Yeah, I'm sure Arizona and Colorado padded Bonds' statistics and nobody else's...not to mention the FACT that Bonds has played in hitter's parks as his home parks for almost his entire career!

I find it unbelievable that you cannot grasp a small concept that when Bonds actually makes contact with ball (i.e. Batting average) and doesn't walk or is intentionally walked, he has been unsuccessful against most good pitching teams this year. I specifically said to exclude OBP/OPS because of the intentional walks. Hence, you don't get it. Your brain is incapable of realizing that when Bonds does swing against good pitching and puts the ball in play (i.e. Batting Average again), he usually hits well under .300 (more like around <.250). I'll explain it again in case you missed it: Bonds does not HIT good pitching teams well. He makes an OUT when he swings the bat almost, on average, 3 out of 4 times. This includes roughly 1/3 of his total AB's from this season against good pitching teams: St.Louis, Boston, Oakland, Florida, San Diego, and Atlanta.

You state:

Atlanta: .889
NY: 1.067
LA: 1.207
Houston: 1.000

It's funny that you state the SLG% against 3 teams you "think" have good pitching, wheee anyone can do that. Let's take Manny for example:

Philly: 1.364
White Sox (hey if you think NY and Houston are good, so is Chitown): 1.040
Texas (aren't they good too? Their record is good like Houston!): .710
SDG (a real pitching team): .727
Anaheim (a real pitching team): .760
Oakland (a real pitching team): .846

See, anyone can take a good hitter and do what you just did. You didn't even include how many AB's those numbers were over, hell he could have only hit against the NYM 5 times how do we know? I gave a relevant % of his AB's against great pitching teams, you could even do that for you little example above. I guess you now see how silly your argument is.

And let's further explore your stats of SLG against those 4 teams: 2 of Bond's 7 hits against Atlanta came in one game against Russ Ortiz and were homeruns, obviously that would pad his SLG% ridiculously (2HR's in 7 AB's). Another 3 of 7 came in losses last week where his team lost both of those games. I even humored you and added Hotlanta to the average above for good pitching teams, he still makes an out every 3/4 AB's, it doesn't matter.

Next, the other teams you listed are not good pitching teams. Listing teams like the New York Mets as a good pitching team is an absolute joke, they've lost what, 10 in a row now (where they gave up 65 runs) and 16 of their last 18 (where they gave up a whopping 112 Runs)?? If they hadn't pitched so well earlier in the season they would be in the bottom 5 statistically. Please spare us the humor. I already explained that LA is a fvcking fluke when it comes to starting pitching, they will come back down to earth just as the Mets did halfway through the season, and they will NOT be in the playoffs, you heard it here first. When you have LIMATIME, Nomo, and Jeff Weaver; that is nothing to brag about, all have been subpar throughout their careers and I will bet you $1000 that they don't finish 3rd in pitching in the NL when the season is over. Houston, there's another good laugh, their team is 8th in the NL in pitching, barely ahead of the Mets! The only thing holding that rotation is a 40 year old named Roger Clemens. In the past 20 games they gone 17-3, but have given up a whopping 109 runs!! Good thing they know how to hit.

Yes, I had mistaken the BB for intentional, but many of Bonds regular "walks" are where the pitcher just pitches around him anyway but not "intentionally". So I still think the total number of walks against the listed teams above are relevant, you would actually have to watch the game to see how many regular BB were actually intentionals (although not officially an intentional). He has accumulated a huge number of his BB against those 4 teams listed above.

Regarding teams like Colorado and AZ, Bonds has alarmingly high padded stats against them vs good teams. So again, the bottom line is that good pitching teams should PITCH to Bonds and not be pvssies about it (i.e. intentional BB, pitching around him and giving him a BB), roughly 3 out 4 times he makes contact it will be an out. The stats prove it. Which is why Bonds is OVERRATED. Good pure hitters like Manny hit all types of pitching well, good and bad, it doesn't matter. How can you not agree with the fact that Bonds is overrated after the stats I posted above?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: cmdavid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: cmdavid

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: cmdavid
pujols is the best hitter...

We heard you the first time and no one but you thinks so.

He is behind Bonds. Go look at the #s.

you can look at the numbers or you can look at their skill by actually watching them play.. nobody can hit the ball in any direction like pujols can.. all around he is the best hitter in the league.. you should just see some of the pitches he'll take and hit out of the park... i'm talking about pitches that are waaay out of the strike zone...
you also have to look at the advantage bonds has in that his strike zone is half the size of pujols... just watch him at the plate.. he'll rarely hit anything out of the park unless its right down the middle, the only pitch they'll call a strike on him...

Manny has just as good, if not better, ability to hit to all fields the way Pujols has. For instance, last night Manny hit an outside fastball opposite field off Barry Zito... when he hit it, no way you would think it's a HR coming off the bat!

Manny has more than twice as many strikeouts as Pujols does in less the number at-bats...

Agreed, Manny does have an unusually high strikeout ratio this year. Historically it has been much lower, probably around the rate of Pujols his year. Personally, I think he is slouching a bit but look at his numbers: he still hits for good avg, and great power. Even in an off year he is still phenomenal. Maybe the fact that Ortiz is hitting so well makes him lose some of his discipline, who knows?

 

[lordtyranus]

Looked up some stats: Bonds against Cardinals is batting .167 in 18AB's, .167 against the Marlins in 12AB's, .111 against Boston in 9AB's, .286 against Oakland in 14AB's, .290 in 31AB against SD, and .389 in 18AB's against Atlanta (3 out of his 7 hits courtesy of Ortiz lobbing meatballs for him lmao). Sorry Barry, but that's just not gonna get the job done come playoff time.

I can't believe someone is challenging Bonds' playoff abilities. Didn't he silence everything there with his ridiculous 2002 world series?

In anycase, heres some more Bonds stats.

Average with RISP: .413 avg, .759 obp
RISP 2 out: .455, .848

Sp33d, here are manny's split stats. vs Baltimore: .256 avg, .347 obp, .302 slg, .649 ops
vs NYY: .281, .300, .649, .949
vs Min: .240, .296, .480, .776

No wonder why they never win the division. Manny pads his stats against the White Sox and the Mariners.

I already explained that LA is a fvcking fluke when it comes to starting pitching, they will come back down to earth just as the Mets did halfway through the season, and they will NOT be in the playoffs, you heard it here first.

If you want to talk about stats, you should use all of them.

The top 3 NL teams in pitching in ERA are the Braves, Cardinals, and Dodgers. Bonds hits .389, .167, and .483 against them. And considering these 3 are pretty much guaranteed NL playoff teams, they are the ones that matter.

 

[Argo]

Gary Sheffield... I'm kidding, but he's still amazing. Once he got knocked down by a pitcher and then hit a monster home run on the next pitch. Another time he was down 0-2 in the bottom of the ninth or eigth inning. He proceeded to foul off something like 10+ pitches, some of them shoulder high and then hit a home run, tying the game. I think if he wasn't hurt this season and if he had a little more protection (i.e. Giambi wasn't hurt and/or Arod was hitting a little better) he'd have a monster season.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Looked up some stats: Bonds against Cardinals is batting .167 in 18AB's, .167 against the Marlins in 12AB's, .111 against Boston in 9AB's, .286 against Oakland in 14AB's, .290 in 31AB against SD, and .389 in 18AB's against Atlanta (3 out of his 7 hits courtesy of Ortiz lobbing meatballs for him lmao). Sorry Barry, but that's just not gonna get the job done come playoff time.

I can't believe someone is challenging Bonds' playoff abilities. Didn't he silence everything there with his ridiculous 2002 world series?

In anycase, heres some more Bonds stats.

Average with RISP: .413 avg, .759 obp
RISP 2 out: .455, .848

Sp33d, here are manny's split stats. vs Baltimore: .256 avg, .347 obp, .302 slg, .649 ops
vs NYY: .281, .300, .649, .949

No wonder why they never win the division. Manny pads his stats against the White Sox.

What does RISP have anything to do with the good pitching teams I mentioned above?? 😕 Wow, historically, he had one good postseason in 20 AB's. You could say the same for Scott Brosious, Tim Salmon, or any WS hero who got hot at the right time. I've proven that in roughly 1/3 of Bond's AB's this year against good/great pitching teams, he has faltered. Against sht teams (some with very thin air and small ballparks), he has thrived. The other 1/3 is against average teams, so the stats are random.

Yes, Manny has been subpar against Baltimore, so what? I could show you that Bonds has hit only .200 against Cincinnatti this year in 15ABs. One team means nothing. What I'm looking for is a statistical trend that says Bonds should be killing the ball against ALL pitching, including great pitching. Look at Manny's numbers against teams such as Anaheim and Oakland (and the stats above against the Yankees aren't bad either, you're going to complain about a 1.598 OPS??!!!?) , he kills the ball. Yes it's great that Bonds kills the ball against shtty teams, but all in all it's the good ones that count. Manny doesn't hit Baltimore well, it's well known that the O's have had Boston's # this year just as Cincy has had Bond's. That is irrelevant when you take the majority of AB's against good/bad pitching and average them.

 

[lordtyranus]

I've proven that in roughly 1/3 of Bond's AB's this year against good/great pitching teams, he has faltered.

No, you've just dismissed any team that Bonds hits well against, including Atlanta and Los Angeles. Regardless of what you say ERA does not lie.

The NL has 15 teams. The top 5 teams in NL ERA there are ATL, SL, LA, Chi, and FL. Bonds hits .389, .167, .483, .300, and .167 against them, for an average of .301. The top 5 AL teams (disregarding boston) are OAK, MIN, ANA, TEX, and NYY. Manny hits .308, .240, .320, .355, and .281. Which, incidentally, averages .301. Now here's the kicker: all the NL teams have lower ERAs than the AL teams.

(and the stats above against the Yankees aren't bad either, you're going to complain about a 1.598 OPS??!!!?) ,

The ops is .949, but you ignore ops remember? I'll sure as hell complain about a .300 onbase percentage from your team leader and MVP candidate against your division/playoff rival.

Yes, Manny has been subpar against Baltimore, so what?

The meaning of 1 team is limited, but a division team means a lot more than a nondivision one.

 

[cmdavid]

Originally posted by: eber

Originally posted by: cmdavid
its pujols.. i think that pujols is a better hitter than bonds...

I agree...Pujols is the more complete hitter able to hit to all fields with power.

w00t!! somebody agrees with me...

 

[torpid]

Question, where is everyone finding the stats for a player against particular teams?

I find it hard to pick anyone but pujols and bonds as the top two hitters. I haven't been impressed with Ichiro so far as I've seen. I do have some lingering doubts about pujols in the offseason, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

The top 3 NL teams in pitching in ERA are the Braves, Cardinals, and Dodgers. Bonds hits .389, .167, and .483 against them. And considering these 3 are pretty much guaranteed NL playoff teams, they are the ones that matter.

How could you leave out the Marlins and SD? They have better starting rotations than Atlanta and LA, they just don't hit which is why they may not make the postseason.

Marlins starting rotation:
1)Pavano - 3.09 ERA/1.18 WHIP/5.54 K-9IP, 2)Burnett 3.93/1.20/8.43, Dontrelle 3.97/1.37/6.45, Beckett 4.05/1.24/8.79.

San Diego's:
1)Peavy - 2.33/1.26/8.84, 2)Wells 3.61/1.17/4.01, Lawrence 3.82/1.36/5.35, and Eaton 4.69/1.27/6.71.

Atlanta's:
1)Wright - 3.19/1.32/7.46, 2)Ortiz 3.67/1.46/6.50, Thomson 4.17/1.36/5.83, Hampton 4.70/1.60/4.41

LA:
1)Perez 3.16/1.15/5.77, 2)Weaver 3.72/1.26/6.39, Lima 4.30/1.19/4.86, Ishii 4.59/1.45/4.76

As you can see, SD and FL both have better number #1 pitchers, FL has a better #2 pitcher than both teams (even though Burnett's ERA is slightly higher he kills Weaver and Ortiz in WHIP and K/9), SD a better #2 in Wells (he beats both #2's in ERA and WHIP), and SD and FL's last 2 starters beat LA/Atlanta's in at least 2 of the 3 categories, if not ALL.

Hence, you can easily say that FL/SD have better rotations than Atlanta and LA. You could argue that both LA and Atlanta's starting 3 and 4 SUCK the big one, the bullpens pick up the slack for total ERA. But let's face it, the starters will pitch the majority of the innings against Bonds, not the 'pen (and not taking anything away from SD and FL, both are solid if not great!). Hence why I did NOT include LA in my statistical analysis, and I shouldn't have even included Atlanta in that mix either but I did just for shts and giggles.

So to summarize, your Bonds stats for Atlanta/St.Louis/LA depicts an inaccurate reflection of Bonds vs good pitching. My example of Bonds Cardinals, Marlins, Boston, Oakland, SD and yes even Atlanta (which actually helps your argument) was much more relevant with regards to "good/great pitching". Nice try though.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

I've proven that in roughly 1/3 of Bond's AB's this year against good/great pitching teams, he has faltered.

No, you've just dismissed any team that Bonds hits well against, including Atlanta and Los Angeles. Regardless of what you say ERA does not lie.

The NL has 15 teams. The top 5 teams in NL ERA there are ATL, SL, LA, Chi, and FL. Bonds hits .389, .167, .483, .300, and .167 against them, for an average of .301. The top 5 AL teams (disregarding boston) are OAK, MIN, ANA, TEX, and NYY. Manny hits .308, .240, .320, .355, and .281. Which, incidentally, averages .301. Now here's the kicker: all the NL teams have lower ERAs than the AL teams.

(and the stats above against the Yankees aren't bad either, you're going to complain about a 1.598 OPS??!!!?) ,

The ops is .949, but you ignore ops remember? I'll sure as hell complain about a .300 onbase percentage from your team leader and MVP candidate against your division/playoff rival.

Yes, Manny has been subpar against Baltimore, so what?

The meaning of 1 team is limited, but a division team means a lot more than a nondivision one.

No, I did not dismiss any team that Bonds hit well against, I added Atlanta. I think LA's pitching is a fluke, and I'll say it again. You even quoted me when I said Atlanta:

"Looked up some stats: Bonds against Cardinals is batting .167 in 18AB's, .167 against the Marlins in 12AB's, .111 against Boston in 9AB's, .286 against Oakland in 14AB's, .290 in 31AB against SD, and .389 in 18AB's against Atlanta (3 out of his 7 hits courtesy of Ortiz lobbing meatballs for him lmao). Sorry Barry, but that's just not gonna get the job done come playoff time."

Furthermore, the 3 teams you said: LA, Atlanta, and St.L account for 20.2% of his total AB's, I provided roughly 1/3 which is much more relevant, wouldn't you say?

Your comparison above:

"The top 5 teams in NL ERA there are ATL, SL, LA, Chi, and FL. Bonds hits .389, .167, .483, .300, and .167 against them, for an average of .301. The top 5 AL teams (disregarding boston) are OAK, MIN, ANA, TEX, and NYY. Manny hits .308, .240, .320, .355, and .281. Which, incidentally, averages .301. Now here's the kicker: all the NL teams have lower ERAs than the AL teams."

is highly flawed. Here's why: Team ERA is not an accurate indicator of the quality of pitching Bonds has gone up against. You need to look at other things like K/9 and WHIP, because ERA is highly dependant upon other things like pitching in a hitter's/pitcher's park. Also, the majority of Bond's AB's are going to be against a team's starters, and not their bullpen. A team may have average starting pitching, but the bullpen is so good it makes up for the over Team's ERA (LA is a good example of this, as I proved above). This means that most of Bond's AB's will be against average/lackluster starters like LA's (and Atlanta's) where he can tee off on them. But when you have to face Pavano or Burnett for 7 or 8 innings, and then the closer Mota you aren't going to be as successful, don't you agree?

Also, you say: "Now here's the kicker: all the NL teams have lower ERAs than the AL teams." The DH plays a huge role in runs scored in the AL, as Tony LaRussa stated in an interview on the Jim Rome show last month (he said it should be completely discarded because of its ability to completely change a game).

I wasn't trying to compare Bonds to Manny statistically, I was just showing you that great hitters like Manny hit all types of pitching well, from Seattle to Texas to Chicago to Oakland to Anaheim and even decent against NY. With Bonds this is not so, he bats well under or at .300 against all great pitching teams except Atlanta (whose starters are just average/slightly above average).

 

[ZowieHowie]

The following hitters batted #2 in the order last night 🙂

Angel Berroa
Carlos Guillen
Lew Ford
Darren Newhan
Carlos Beltran
Felipe Lopez
Juan Uribe
Hank Blalock
Eric Chaves
Jose Mecias
Michael Tucker
Royce Clayton
Orlando Hudson
Darrin Erstad
Mark Bellhorn
Mark McLemore
Ray Lankford
Ramon Vazquez
Alex Cintron
Steve Finley
Rocco Baldelli
Alex Rodriguez
Brady Clark
Jack Wilson
David Wright
Luis Castillo

Stay tuned for the #2 hitters in MLB tomorrow 🙂

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid
Question, where is everyone finding the stats for a player against particular teams?

I find it hard to pick anyone but pujols and bonds as the top two hitters. I haven't been impressed with Ichiro so far as I've seen. I do have some lingering doubts about pujols in the offseason, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Torpid, go to www.mlb.com and click on Stats at the top. Type in the last name of the player you want to find in the box on the left, and then click on "Splits". Keep going until the Splits get to the teams... You can also do the same on www.espn.com.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I find it unbelievable that you cannot grasp a small concept that when Bonds actually makes contact with ball (i.e. Batting average) and doesn't walk or is intentionally walked, he has been unsuccessful against most good pitching teams this year.

No, he has been amazingly successful. You want to ignore almost everything that a batter does and only look at batting average. I would find it unbelievable, but having been in previous arguments with you I know that you are not capable of rational thinking.

I specifically said to exclude OBP/OPS because of the intentional walks. Hence, you don't get it.

Good idea. Let's forget about one of the most important things for a batter! How about we also ignore homeruns, doubles, triples, singles, and walks? :roll:

Your brain is incapable of realizing that when Bonds does swing against good pitching and puts the ball in play (i.e. Batting Average again), he usually hits well under .300 (more like around <.250). I'll explain it again in case you missed it: Bonds does not HIT good pitching teams well. He makes an OUT when he swings the bat almost, on average, 3 out of 4 times. This includes roughly 1/3 of his total AB's from this season against good pitching teams: St.Louis, Boston, Oakland, Florida, San Diego, and Atlanta.

And that includes fantastic SLG. Seems pretty good to me. That is about 28% of his total at bats. And what about the good pitching teams that he destroys? It's really sad when you have to pick and choose stats while completely ignoring almost everything that a batter does. Look at these cases. Bonds' SLG against these teams:

San Diego: .710 (OPS: 1.261)
OAK: .714 (OPS: 1.307)
ATL: .889 (OPS: 1.466)

So horrible to have a 1.200+ OPS against these teams with a SLG over .700! What a slacker!

You state:

Atlanta: .889
NY: 1.067
LA: 1.207
Houston: 1.000

It's funny that you state the SLG% against 3 teams you "think" have good pitching, wheee anyone can do that. Let's take Manny for example:

Philly: 1.364
White Sox (hey if you think NY and Houston are good, so is Chitown): 1.040
Texas (aren't they good too? Their record is good like Houston!): .710
SDG (a real pitching team): .727
Anaheim (a real pitching team): .760
Oakland (a real pitching team): .846

Those are teams that are in the top half or near it of their league. Nice that you showed that Manny Ramirez can't hit as well against good pitching teams like Bonds can. Anywyas, like lordtyranus stated you can be selected for Manny Ramirez as well. But of course you can't see that as you are a fanatical Red Sox fan.

See, anyone can take a good hitter and do what you just did. You didn't even include how many AB's those numbers were over, hell he could have only hit against the NYM 5 times how do we know? I gave a relevant % of his AB's against great pitching teams, you could even do that for you little example above. I guess you now see how silly your argument is.

Just like you can do the same to your argument with almost any hitter? Hilarious! My argument was almost the same as your one, but now you're saying mine is ridiculous. Nice!

And let's further explore your stats of SLG against those 4 teams: 2 of Bond's 7 hits against Atlanta came in one game against Russ Ortiz and were homeruns, obviously that would pad his SLG% ridiculously (2HR's in 7 AB's). Another 3 of 7 came in losses last week where his team lost both of those games. I even humored you and added Hotlanta to the average above for good pitching teams, he still makes an out every 3/4 AB's, it doesn't matter.

Now you want to excuse his homeruns! Hey I have an idea...how about we just forget everything that Bonds did! OMG! He batted .000 with a .000 OBP and a .000 SLG when you forget everything!

Next, the other teams you listed are not good pitching teams. Listing teams like the New York Mets as a good pitching team is an absolute joke, they've lost what, 10 in a row now (where they gave up 65 runs) and 16 of their last 18 (where they gave up a whopping 112 Runs)?? If they hadn't pitched so well earlier in the season they would be in the bottom 5 statistically. Please spare us the humor.

Good idea! We should look at pitching ranks when Bonds faced them! I'm pretty sure that NYM would have fared so much better. Thanks for the help!

I already explained that LA is a fvcking fluke when it comes to starting pitching, they will come back down to earth just as the Mets did halfway through the season, and they will NOT be in the playoffs, you heard it here first. When you have LIMATIME, Nomo, and Jeff Weaver; that is nothing to brag about, all have been subpar throughout their careers and I will bet you $1000 that they don't finish 3rd in pitching in the NL when the season is over.

Yeah, LA always has such a horrible pitching staff. They're always a fluke. That's why they've always been in the top 5 in ERA recently. It's your opinion that they're a fluke. I like how you are trying to eliminate whoel statistics for your cause.

Yes, I had mistaken the BB for intentional, but many of Bonds regular "walks" are where the pitcher just pitches around him anyway but not "intentionally". So I still think the total number of walks against the listed teams above are relevant, you would actually have to watch the game to see how many regular BB were actually intentionals (although not officially an intentional). He has accumulated a huge number of his BB against those 4 teams listed above.

Good idea! Let's eliminate all of his BB now! Can we also eliminate his homeruns, singles, doubles, triples?

Regarding teams like Colorado and AZ, Bonds has alarmingly high padded stats against them vs good teams. So again, the bottom line is that good pitching teams should PITCH to Bonds and not be pvssies about it (i.e. intentional BB, pitching around him and giving him a BB), roughly 3 out 4 times he makes contact it will be an out. The stats prove it. Which is why Bonds is OVERRATED. Good pure hitters like Manny hit all types of pitching well, good and bad, it doesn't matter. How can you not agree with the fact that Bonds is overrated after the stats I posted above?

The stats prove that Barry Bonds destroys them when they pitch to him. He puts up alarmingly high stats while playing in a very tough pitcher's park as his home park (not to mention that LA is a pitcher' spark, too).

Good hitters like Bonds will be remembered as one of the best hitters of all time. Hitters like Manny can only dream to be anything like Bonds.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

I've proven that in roughly 1/3 of Bond's AB's this year against good/great pitching teams, he has faltered.

No, you've just dismissed any team that Bonds hits well against, including Atlanta and Los Angeles. Regardless of what you say ERA does not lie.

The NL has 15 teams. The top 5 teams in NL ERA there are ATL, SL, LA, Chi, and FL. Bonds hits .389, .167, .483, .300, and .167 against them, for an average of .301. The top 5 AL teams (disregarding boston) are OAK, MIN, ANA, TEX, and NYY. Manny hits .308, .240, .320, .355, and .281. Which, incidentally, averages .301. Now here's the kicker: all the NL teams have lower ERAs than the AL teams.

Yeah, but but he wants to ignore ATL, LA, and Chicago. :roll:

He also wants to cancel out all of Bonds' singles, doubles, triples, homeruns, and walks.

 

[torpid]

OK, so now we are down to cheek size. In the cheek size department, barry bonds beats everyone, especially Ichiro. Thank god mcgwire retired, though, otherwise barry would be embarrassed by his puny cheeks compared to mark.

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

The top 3 NL teams in pitching in ERA are the Braves, Cardinals, and Dodgers. Bonds hits .389, .167, and .483 against them. And considering these 3 are pretty much guaranteed NL playoff teams, they are the ones that matter.

How could you leave out the Marlins and SD? They have better starting rotations than Atlanta and LA, they just don't hit which is why they may not make the postseason.

Marlins starting rotation:
1)Pavano - 3.09 ERA/1.18 WHIP/5.54 K-9IP, 2)Burnett 3.93/1.20/8.43, Dontrelle 3.97/1.37/6.45, Beckett 4.05/1.24/8.79.

San Diego's:
1)Peavy - 2.33/1.26/8.84, 2)Wells 3.61/1.17/4.01, Lawrence 3.82/1.36/5.35, and Eaton 4.69/1.27/6.71.

Atlanta's:
1)Wright - 3.19/1.32/7.46, 2)Ortiz 3.67/1.46/6.50, Thomson 4.17/1.36/5.83, Hampton 4.70/1.60/4.41

LA:
1)Perez 3.16/1.15/5.77, 2)Weaver 3.72/1.26/6.39, Lima 4.30/1.19/4.86, Ishii 4.59/1.45/4.76

As you can see, SD and FL both have better number #1 pitchers, FL has a better #2 pitcher than both teams (even though Burnett's ERA is slightly higher he kills Weaver and Ortiz in WHIP and K/9), SD a better #2 in Wells (he beats both #2's in ERA and WHIP), and SD and FL's last 2 starters beat LA/Atlanta's in at least 2 of the 3 categories, if not ALL.

Hence, you can easily say that FL/SD have better rotations than Atlanta and LA. You could argue that both LA and Atlanta's starting 3 and 4 SUCK the big one, the bullpens pick up the slack for total ERA. But let's face it, the starters will pitch the majority of the innings against Bonds, not the 'pen (and not taking anything away from SD and FL, both are solid if not great!). Hence why I did NOT include LA in my statistical analysis, and I shouldn't have even included Atlanta in that mix either but I did just for shts and giggles.

So to summarize, your Bonds stats for Atlanta/St.Louis/LA depicts an inaccurate reflection of Bonds vs good pitching. My example of Bonds Cardinals, Marlins, Boston, Oakland, SD and yes even Atlanta (which actually helps your argument) was much more relevant with regards to "good/great pitching". Nice try though.

wtf are you talking about? Rotations don't mean everything, and if a rotation is poor, the bullpen steps in more often.

You do realize that "good pitching" includes non starters as well, right? Like Eric Gagne?

Also, the majority of Bond's AB's are going to be against a team's starters, and not their bullpen

And the ERA is weighted based on the number of innings pitched, moron.

This means that most of Bond's AB's will be against average/lackluster starters like LA's (and Atlanta's) where he can tee off on them.

Like I said before, if they are lackluster, they are releived.

You need to look at other things like K/9 and WHIP, because ERA is highly dependant upon other things like pitching in a hitter's/pitcher's park

San Franscisco is a pitchers park.

Furthermore, the 3 teams you said: LA, Atlanta, and St.L account for 20.2% of his total AB's, I provided roughly 1/3 which is much more relevant, wouldn't you say?

If you are talking about playoff performance, the 3 teams you play in the playoffs are most relevant, wouldn't you say?

What's even funnier is that Bonds has 12 atbats total against Florida, and 16 walks. Oh wait, you know better than MLB managers do.


Edit: More statistics

Against San Diego's SP, Bonds is hitting .333 with 11 walks.
Against Florida's SP, Bonds is hitting .375 with 2 walks.

The very premise of your "good pitching can get Bonds out 3/4 times" only applies to 4 teams in the major leagues, and 1 of them is Cincinatti. And he slugs .500 or better against 2 of them.

 

[classy]

Bonds=1
Manny Ramirez=2
Pujols=3

 

[LongAce]

I'd rather have Pujols over Bonds and Manny any day. They're all good players but Bonds not an everyday player and Manny's not as good in terms of overall power, average, runs but RBI's are equal.

 

[stickybytes]

Pujoils has only been in the league for 4 years. It is amazing how quickly he is already mentioned in a lot of conversations that he is one of the game's best hitters. In his first season in the majors, he hit 37 home runs. I think he is better than alfonso soriano offensively by leaps and bounds. Funny thing is that albert almost got no attention last season, even though he was tearing up the base paths much like he is this year. He even had trouble making the all-star game last year.