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Who is targeting our commercial airliners with Lasers and why???

dahunan

dahunan

Lifer
Laser beams flashed in cockpits draw in FBI

The Associated Press

MEDFORD - The FBI, concerned that terrorists could use lasers as weapons, is now investigating why laser beams were directed into the cockpits of seven airplanes - including one landing in Medford - in flights since Christmas.
Laser beams can temporarily blind or disorient pilots and possibly cause a plane to crash.

In addition to the Medford case, the FBI is looking into two incidents in Colorado Springs, Colo., and one each in Cleveland, Washington, Houston and Teterboro, N.J., according to federal and local law enforcement and transportation officials.

SkyWest crew members say they saw two laserlike rays of light in the cockpit of their plane as they attempted to land at the Medford airport Christmas night.

The lights appeared as their United Express plane began its descent about 8:20 p.m. Saturday.

``It's not some kid,'' said Paul Rancatore, a pilot who serves as deputy chairman of the security committee for the Allied Pilots Association. ``It's too organized.''

The SkyWest pilots described the light as a laser that entered the cockpit from the chief officer's window and did not move off the aircraft, said Alison Gemmell, director of marketing and communication for SkyWest Airlines. The pilots reported the event to airport tower personnel, and the FBI was called in as a routine matter of notification, Gemmell said.

SkyWest also has filed its own report, she added.

Several passengers on the flight from San Francisco confirmed they, too, had seen the light through their porthole windows as the plane was about two miles south of the airport's runway, Gemmell said.

http://www.registerguard.com/n...spicouslight.1231.html

http://news.google.com/?hl=en&...aser-planes041231.html
 
I wonder if this is in response to the warning by the FBI? I don't seem to recall anything like this until the warning was given that terrorists might try to bring down or crash planes with lasers. Maybe there is something to the intelligence...maybe it's just a response to the intelligence.
 
I'm surprised nobody has talked about this. I find it creepy that stuff like this is going on. You need sophisticated equipment to follow an airplane at 8k feet high with a laser.
 
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
 
It's like UFOs all over again. If someone wanted to screw with a plane, they'd do it with a shoulder mounted missile, not the ungodly expensive setup required to train a laser on such a target.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
Click to expand...

I am uneducated about this .. but isn't it moving in a straight line and is a giant object?
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: spidey07
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
Click to expand...

I am uneducated about this .. but isn't it moving in a straight line and is a giant object?
Click to expand...

Try holding a laser on a car whindshield when it is moving 100+ mph in a stright line, a half mile or more away. The reports states the beam stayed in the cockpit while they were trying to land. That simply can't be possible by hand, has to be a machine doing it.

I've been to a lot of airshows and even holding the plane steady in the frame with a good monocule or binoculars is difficult, and they are moving very slow (comparitivley, I don't know the landing speed of a jet but I would assume it is 100+)
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: spidey07
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
Click to expand...

I am uneducated about this .. but isn't it moving in a straight line and is a giant object?
Click to expand...
Moving at over 500mph, possibly with changes in vertical positioning too while already being upwards of 6 miles up, all the while needing to compensate for the effects the atmosphere has on scattering the laser. The US gov't has been trying to do this kind of stuff for years with Star Wars and similar systems, it's not nearly as easy as it sounds.
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: spidey07
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
Click to expand...

I am uneducated about this .. but isn't it moving in a straight line and is a giant object?
Click to expand...

Straight line maybe... but giant object? How big do you really think the cockpit windows are? Especially from a mile or two or more away?
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: spidey07
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
Click to expand...

I am uneducated about this .. but isn't it moving in a straight line and is a giant object?
Click to expand...

You might be able to manually keep it on a large target like the plane, but I don't believe you would be able to keep it aimed at the cockpit without an automated tracking system.
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: spidey07
Nobody has really brought this up but.....

You can't just shine a laser at a plane and hit it while its coming in for a landing. There HAS to be some kind of automated tracking system like this. I mean imagine trying to hold a laser on a plane moving 100+ mph.
Click to expand...

I am uneducated about this .. but isn't it moving in a straight line and is a giant object?
Click to expand...

I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it would be to accurately point a laser at a 600+ MPH plane at any kind of elevation. Not to mention, it would be difficult to get the right angle into the cockpit considering from below, you can't even see the windows.
 
landing speed for a 747 looks to be about 160-180 knots (from the all knowing oracle), that's a huge plane so maybe a DC9 or prop plane would be slower.

so even on approach it is still moving 150 mph+ (something like 1.18 knots per MPH)

OH, cruising speed for most jets is 530+ mph up to about 565 mph.

So not to cause a panic, but maybe some folks are testing out tracking systems. Last I heard the some pilots were able to tell authorities the neighboorhood where it came from.

search landing speed <plane model here> to get answers.

http://www.hilmerby.com/dc9/d9_landing.html - still 140+ knots. The plane is still moving pretty dang fast.
 
Guys, I suspect it isn't all that hard. First, the stories I've read all mention the planes were on landing approach. I assume this was true in all cases. This is the only time when the plane's attitude is nose-down, giving a person on the ground (hereinafter referred to as "the idiot") a line of sight to the pilots without being on a mountaintop or in another plane. Second, when the target is a mile or two away, the diameter of the laser beam is likely several feet across. Someone with real knowledge of lasers needs to verify this.

If my assumptions are correct, then all the idiot needs to do is line up with the runway on the opposite side of the approach path. From that angle, the plane is heading directly towards him. Its only relative motion is a slow, steady descent. The speed of light means he doesn't have to lead it. It would be very easy to track by hand.

Make sense?
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Guys, I suspect it isn't all that hard. First, the stories I've read all mention the planes were on landing approach. I assume this was true in all cases. This is the only time when the plane's attitude is nose-down, giving a person on the ground (hereinafter referred to as "the idiot") a line of sight to the pilots without being on a mountaintop or in another plane. Second, when the target is a mile or two away, the diameter of the laser beam is likely several feet across. Someone with real knowledge of lasers needs to verify this.

If my assumptions are correct, then all the idiot needs to do is line up with the runway on the opposite side of the approach path. From that angle, the plane is heading directly towards him. Its only relative motion is a slow, steady descent. The speed of light means he doesn't have to lead it. It would be very easy to track by hand.

Make sense?
Click to expand...

I guess straight on might not be too difficult. The approach patterns are very regular and you're right about the attitude.

Would need some kind of optics and mechanics to make it work though - not by hand. Like a mount, with a minocule/scope and tight screw drive for two axis.
 
What about intereference and crap? You know, point a laser at the wall and then get some dust up and moving and wa la you see its path~
 
Originally posted by: ViRGE
It's like UFOs all over again. If someone wanted to screw with a plane, they'd do it with a shoulder mounted missile, not the ungodly expensive setup required to train a laser on such a target.
Click to expand...

its much easier to get a 200mW laser (buy one online) or get plans/parts to build a ever stronger laser on your own - however you might have SOME difficulties to purchase a "shoulder guided missile".....or if you were to get one somewhere else to bring it in this country 🙂

I also agree with bowfinger that it might be surprisingly easy to achieve shining a laser in a cockpit.
Whoever lives near a airport can confirm that it probably only depends on the angle....eg. plane coming right towards you in its path....nose down while they approach landing.....relative movement is ZERO for several minutes/miles while the plane is descending.

 
Would need some kind of optics and mechanics to make it work though - not by hand. Like a mount, with a minocule/scope and tight screw drive for two axis.
Click to expand...

imagine standing on a freeway...assuming you have a strong enough laser...it would be no big problem to blind oncoming cars. not even by hand. my $0.2. Same with planes..depends where you are relative to the plane.


 
Originally posted by: flexy
Would need some kind of optics and mechanics to make it work though - not by hand. Like a mount, with a minocule/scope and tight screw drive for two axis.
Click to expand...

imagine standing on a freeway...assuming you have a strong enough laser...it would be no big problem to blind oncoming cars. not even by hand. my $0.2. Same with planes..depends where you are relative to the plane.
Click to expand...

Link

This laser can do 9k feet. But wouldn't it be hard to aim it in a cockpit when the article stated the plane was 8-10k feet high going 300 mph?
 
in the Cleveland case, the suspected area of origination for the laser was Warrensville Heights - which isn't really in the landing path of a plane going to Hopkins airport at all....

what power would the laser have to be to hit a target several miles away?
 
A few comments regarding this...

First and foremost, the FBI is definitely investigating all reports of laserings. It is getting out of hand. If you have a laser pointer (even a dollar store red one!) please do NOT shine it on any craft flying in the sky. It's common sense.

Second, the green lasers of legal power of 5mW are no threat to aircraft. They are bright enough to startle at considerable distance. One must also remember that these inexpensive devices have a divergence in clear air of 1.2 milliradians. So for every meter of beam travel, the beam spreads 1.2 mm. You can do the math to get an idea how large the beam would be at 3kM. The energy density would be no greater than getting a bright flashlight shined in your eyes.

Even though, a bright and unexpected flash of light in a cockpit is not what a pilot should be seeing especially when landing a commercial airliner. This is very irresponsible behaviour and will not be tolerated. Currently, it is a felony to intentionally direct a laser device at a commercial airliner at any time.

Lasers of much greater power are available. I'm sure you have seen the references to the lasershoppe.com site on Slashdot. Unfortunately, the owner of this site has decided to not sell these lasers any more due to the recent flurry of activity in the news and general spread of damaging false statements and misinformation. Too bad we live in a society where law abiding citizens have to pay for the actions of delinquents. The lasers are certified by the FDA and are legal for bona fide uses.

The real concern IMO are the laser pointers that are being cranked to levels approaching 10x the legal limit and sold as pointers. Not only is this illegal, this puts the seller and buyer at risk of facing insurmountable problems in court down the road.

As far as tracking an airliner on approach, whether or not this is possible (or are the reports from the pilots just exaggerated?) or not remains to be determined. The FBI is doing their best to determine this, who is doing it and why all the recent incidents all over the place.

Personally, I believe this is from people that received green laser pointers as gifts this Christmas, and after reading all the (often exaggerated) literature on how far the beams will travel take them outdoors and look at the sky. They see a plane and say "wow, I wonder if I can see the dot on the plane up there!" Well they just don't know better and this is happening without intention of harm. It does not excuse them by any means. The media must stop spreading rumors and using the word terrorist in these incidents. It just pisses me off to no extent. :|

There exists a system on the market that most definitely could disrupt a commercial flight on approach and the FBI is definitely monitoring anyone purchasing such a system. It is known as the ZM-87 laser defense system. It was designed by the Chinese Defense. Its role is to protect ground tank units and has the capability to track an aerial gunner's optics with a low power beam. It will "lock on" and switch to a very high power beam disabling their targeting sensors and damaging the gunner's vision.


Cheers!
 
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I'm surprised nobody has talked about this. I find it creepy that stuff like this is going on. You need sophisticated equipment to follow an airplane at 8k feet high with a laser.
Click to expand...

My web-cam tracks my face as I move about at my desk. It detects motion when I use it as a security camera. How difficult could it be to whip up some similar software to track a plane in the sky?


 
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