That's ok, neither was the wii. Nintendo doesn't believe programmable shaders being good power efficiency.
Specs sound like it might be on par with the lowest end snapdragon variant though. The demo video shown looks on par with the PowerVR promotional material from the same time period, which is a generation or two behind the current SGX line up. (think MBX)
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There was a major 65nm revision of the chip in 2008 which doubled the clockspeed and doubled the pixel throughput per clock. Who knows what version of the chip Nintendo is using? It could be newer than that, it could be 45nm, clocks could be higher - or the opposite of all of them.
It isn't, because it is fixed-function. But the special particle and shadow effect engines mean that the quality of effects is approaching that - you can see how much they've used them in the Kid Icarus and Metal Gear Solid demos (which are the only games with near-final artwork that were shown off).
And Nintendo gets this in an extremely power efficient chip (200mW), much less than a true 2.0 chip would consume.
From the spec sheets and the best 3DS demos it seems the chip has the power of a Gamecube or PS2 but with more flexibility and ease of programming, meaning most games can look good instead of some.
http://www.dmprof.com/release/leaflet_PICA200_en.pdf
Basic overview of the chip that is rumored to be in it now. Not looking very good by today's standards- by that I mean that it is already eclipsed by higher end phones that are coming out before it. Obviously graphics power isn't everything, but losing out to a phone before you launch isn't a great start IMO.
Basic overview of the chip that is rumored to be in it now. Not looking very good by today's standards- by that I mean that it is already eclipsed by higher end phones that are coming out before it. Obviously graphics power isn't everything, but losing out to a phone before you launch isn't a great start IMO.
akugami
Diamond Member
- Feb 14, 2005
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What? I hope you're just joking. If you're saying that the relative power of the Wii compared vs the competition is a step back when comparing the relative power of the Gamecube vs consoles released during the GC's life cycle then I agree with you.
However your words basically say the Wii is less powerful graphically than the Gamecube. I hope you're not serious and that you just misspoke. Cause while the Wii is not much of an upgrade vs the GC, it is more powerful both in CPU and graphics.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
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I was making a humorous reference to (what I thought was) a well repeated claims that the wii actually has worse graphics than the gamecube. A quick google (to remind myself of the sources) showed a lot of people talking about it, the most concrete thing I got was this:
http://wii.nintendolife.com/news/2009/09/metroid_prime_trilogy_visually_worse_than_original_releases
An update (which I don't think I originally saw) explained that the the wii trilogy compilation was based on the US & Japan gamecube releases. In the gamecube Europe edition they added a bunch of visual effects to the guns, those were never in the US release and as such were not included in the trilogy.
This created a notion that the wii was actually weaker.
Although, I have a nagging feeling that there was more to this entire thing than just that metroid article. I can't wait for the day we all have a harddrive in our brain and I don't have to forget things anymore
crisium
Platinum Member
- Aug 19, 2001
- 2,643
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Just looking at the Kid Icarus trailer leads me to believe that it can produce graphics Dreamcast level (aka inbetween PS1 and PS2). No way PS2, because in the trailer when it shows him fighting on land it is definitely not as impressive as God of War.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-kid-icarus/101486
Of course this is in development work of a new system, so it's probably not the best it can produce.
The tech talk is beyond me, but it cannot compete with the Wii.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-kid-icarus/101486
Of course this is in development work of a new system, so it's probably not the best it can produce.
The tech talk is beyond me, but it cannot compete with the Wii.
akugami
Diamond Member
- Feb 14, 2005
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@taltamir, Sorry there. Never can tell on the internets now who is being serious or sarcastic and who is being a fanboy at times. Too much idiocy has muddied the water so that when someone is truly being sarcastic, it can be hard to tell at times. In this case, I've read so many negative Wii comments it's ridiculous.
While there are always improvements that are possible, I think the PSP came close to the point where any upgrades except one that provides Crysis or Crysis 2 level graphics to be relatively minor updates. There's only so much you can upgrade the graphics on a handheld system before the updates seem minor. If the Nintendo 3DS is as powerful as a PSP then Sony has its work cut out if it wants to beat Nintendo in the handheld niche.
To put it another way, Nintendo kicked Sony's rear with a vastly underperforming handheld console. If Sony wants to try again, it needs something better than the PSP or PSP Go. And I'm not just talking CPU or GPU power. It needs to one up the gameplay experience of the PSP vs Gameboy.
While there are always improvements that are possible, I think the PSP came close to the point where any upgrades except one that provides Crysis or Crysis 2 level graphics to be relatively minor updates. There's only so much you can upgrade the graphics on a handheld system before the updates seem minor. If the Nintendo 3DS is as powerful as a PSP then Sony has its work cut out if it wants to beat Nintendo in the handheld niche.
To put it another way, Nintendo kicked Sony's rear with a vastly underperforming handheld console. If Sony wants to try again, it needs something better than the PSP or PSP Go. And I'm not just talking CPU or GPU power. It needs to one up the gameplay experience of the PSP vs Gameboy.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
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sure it is, I'd like to be able to play for more the 3 hours before having to plug the damn thing in to recharge
The low end hardware is pretty normal of a nintendo handheld.
GBA and DS were both way weaker than phones/pdas of the time. The 3DS just looks bad because it's worse than MOST smart phones in a big way, but since there's yet to be a compelling game platform on a phone (come on PSPhone....), I think it'll be alright.
GBA and DS were both way weaker than phones/pdas of the time. The 3DS just looks bad because it's worse than MOST smart phones in a big way, but since there's yet to be a compelling game platform on a phone (come on PSPhone....), I think it'll be alright.
The DS hit almost exactly the same time as the Razr..... Not saying the DS was a beast by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly stomped the N91 which wasn't even released until the year after the DS(and it was leagues beyond the Razr which was the dominant phone for quite some time after its release). This is where I see a potential issue, Nintendo is releasing a dedicated gaming device for ~$200 that is inferior to multi function devices costing end users the same at launch- and it is supposed to survive ~5-6 years? In the DS's lifetime we went from the Razr to the Evo4G(or Dell Streak, perhaps even Moto's new Tegra/2GHZ phone by the time it launches)- at some point the level of disparity in technology becomes a factor. Obviously at launch it is in a much stronger position then the current DS is, but hanging in for 5-6 years? May be a bit tougher for them.
With current batteries this setup should last significantly more then a full day gaming. I'm thinking current DS levels of battery life is the goal, and for that it seems they are way inside their power envelope unless the display takes significantly more power then a traditional comparable display(which is certainly a possibility and would explain a lot) or they want to make the system incredibly cheap using extremely low end batteries to save a couple of bucks(along with seriously outdated chips).
Nintendo's games will certainly help save them, but as Fox brought up, the possibility of a PSPhone could bury the DS(not saying that it will happen, but it seems like Nin knows the possibility of phones pushing into their market as they have stated that Apple is a bigger concern then Sony).
And....? The DS is likely still more powerful than many dumb phones. The DS was outperformed on its release by a variety of PDAs, and a handful of smart phones. The DS has an Arm 9 at 67Mhz, and some weak graphics hardware. Around the same time, you have the Axim X50V with a 600+Mhz Xscale processor (with WMMX) and MBX Lite, and a ton more memory.
And if you restrict it to the just emerging smart phone market, smart phones of the time still had ARM9s in the 200-300Mhz range, more ram, and limited OpenGL capabilities, and could probably outperform the DS with just software rendering.
Now, smartphones were expensive, but you could probably find PDAs for the cost of the DS that were more powerful than it at launch.
In the DS's lifetime, we went from Axim X50V (624Mhz w/ WMMX ARM9 + mbx lite, virtually dreamcast level hardware) to...whatever phone you wanna compare, it's what, roughly Gamecube or Wii level? And now the 3DS is probably going to be roughly hardware equivalent to the Axim X50V which was available 6 years ago?
BTW, smartphones require expensive plans, most people considering the plan upgrade + smartphone purchase probably aren't even looking at the 3ds.
IMO, all it would take for nintendo's market to disappear is google designing an Android for games platform, a standardized set of buttons/controls that can be added onto a phone (either a phone sold as a gaming platform, or an add on that connects to the docking port), it would allow for real games to be played on a phone.
The ideal design in my mind would be a slider phone, like those with keyboards, but instead pops out a dpad/thumbstick nub and some buttons.
OK, please list off these smartphones that had power levels remotely comparable to the DS for gaming. I would love to hear about them. I was in the market during that timeframe, "smartphones" of that era were shockingly poor- poor enough that they weren't close to being viable replacements for a PDA, let alone what is now considered a smartphone. Actually, I guess a better question would be how many smartphones available during that timeframe go beyond what we now consider dumb phones?
You are comparing the PDA market to the gaming market? I can't see the relation at all, can you explain it?
If $15 is what someone considers expensive, perhaps they should be looking at things other then $200 hand held gaming devices.
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-pho...phone+Services
PSPGo+Android+Cell modem- I can't imagine the thought hasn't occured to Sony.
ViRGE
Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
- Oct 9, 1999
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Ultimately this was inevitable. The Apple/HTC/Motos of the world are content to throw in powerful hardware for the eye-candy factor even if it quickly depletes batteries. Nintendo has a very different strategy that almost seems to be highly focused on a single activity (people on long trips), but then it's a Japanese company who found a lot of success giving the country's subway riders something to do. In any case it's a strategy that has paid off well for other markets even if battery life isn't as critical. This does mean that they have to go head-to-head with companies that pick features over battery life, but the last time someone seriously went at Nintendo with that strategy (Sony's PSP) Nintendo still handily won. The outcome of this kind of competition can change at any time though.
If anything, the wildcard is 3D. A stereoscopic screen requires double the rendering - there's a big eye-candy tradeoff there to have the 3D screen. If the 3D screen isn't a big hit with customers, people are going to treat the device as a 2D device and in effect are using an already slow GPU at half power. And while the PICA200 doesn't appear to be designed around 3D, I'm sure Nintendo picked it for a high fillrate and triangle throughput. If they didn't need that kind of throughput, they could have picked another chip that trades those attributes for more traditional eye-candy, such as OpenGL ES 2.0 pixel shaders.
Come on Ben, do you really want to have this argument again? At this point you seem to be the only person that can't agree that the smartphone/PDA/gaming markets overlap. (Hint: They all play suitably complex games)
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Please explain how a PDA overlaps with the DS market in terms of sales. Lumping smartphones in with PDAs is a logical fallacy to put it mildly. I'll put it another way if it helps you- noone has gone looking to buy themselves a PDA and bought a DS instead. Noone has gone looking for a DS and bought a PDA instead. It does not happen. There is potential for someone looking for a hand held gaming device to go with a smartphone, there is potential for a handheld gamer to pick up a high power MP3 player instead, there is no overlap with PDAs as consumer electronics devices. If we want to discuss the software market, that is a different thread entirely and I can see why some people would want to lump the million dollar PDA gaming market in with the multi billion dollar handheld gaming market. It is under 8 soccer league versus the World Cup in terms of popularity.
Saying that they are comparable because they both play 'suitably complex' games is akin to saying that people may decide to go with Flash over a Nintendo DS; or saying that someone shopping for a camera is going to buy a phone instead; or perhaps someone is going to cross shop a Toyora Tundra with a Mac truck. The stance that a gaming device and a PDA are ever going to be cross shopped is equally absurd. All of those devices share some functionality, doesn't mean people are going to cross shop them.
Surely the 3D takes up a lot of the processing power so even if it is a powerful as a Wii it won't look as good as a Wii game, in a 2D picture anyway.
TheMeanestGuest
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- Jan 24, 2009
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Good games that people actually want to play are a million times more important than hardware. Since we're talking about Nintendo, I don't think there is much threat from anyone anytime soon eclipsing them in the handheld market.
I agree with you in no uncertain way in terms of a dedicated gaming device. As a portable entertainment device, it isn't quite that simple though. Nintendo is facing increased pressure in terms of its market presence from the smartphones/high end mp3 players and with them adding gaming functionality it becomes a bit more complicated for them to retain dominance in that market segment. Don't get me wrong, I don't see Sony or any of the smartphone companies being able to compete with Nintendo as a gaming device, but as a portable entertainment option they have a far greater challenge now then they have ever had in the past.
tweakboy
Diamond Member
Sylvanas
Diamond Member
- Jan 20, 2004
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