Who exactly are the Palestinians???

[swayinOtis]

<< Czar, since you believe that violence is not the answer, I have a proposition for you.

I will fly to Iceland at my expense and meet up with. At that point I will repeatedly kick you in the nuts until you fall down, then take your wallet. OK with you? >>



You can then go to the lovely Blue Lagoon.

 

[swayinOtis]

my thread has been turned into a flamewar, much like the conflict we're talking about.

anyway, thanks for all the help. my head is still spinning trying to make sense of it all, but at least i know more now than i did yesterday.

did i read correctly that the arabs attacked israel right after the british left, and that is why palestine is not recognized as a country. why would palestine be denied statehood if the arabs attacked? how does one go about becoming a recognized country? wasn't the point of the mandate to make two separate countries?

it's funny that the west bank is in EASTERN Israel. I guess it's west of Jordan. hmmm.

 

[ThePresence]

<<

<< I didn't know that Israel was part of the US. >>



its the other way around, the US is a part of Israel, remember. :Q

see ? >>



Well man, I was right. This is why i called u an anti semite. For linking sites like the one u just did.

 

[ThePresence]

<< it's funny that the west bank is in EASTERN Israel. I guess it's west of Jordan. hmmm. >>



It's the west bank of the Jordan river.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< Did you read the thread and the reason why I was fed up with the Isreaelis? that was because they were stopping medical people getting to the injured, then they started to shoot at them and kill them, ask any doctor in the world what they feel about the subject. >>


Well Czar since I've never seen you post that you were fed up with the palestinians I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you missed this incident Link for Czar.

 

[StormRider]

Czar, this doesn't say anything about how Palestine originated! All it says is that people have lived in that land for a long time. It's like someone writing about the history of the US and describing how ancient people (Indians) inhabited the land thousands of years ago -- but the US has only existed for a little over 200 years.

From what I understand, Palestine, Jordan, and Israel are all entities that have only existed recently. I always wonder why didn't the Palestinians just consider Jordan as their homeland when that land was partitioned into Jordan and Israel.




<<
<< History of Palestine

Palestine is one of the most ancient homelands of humankind. There is evidence that Palestine was inhabited almost two hundred thousand years ago.

With the beginning of the Middle Stone Age (Mesolithic period) circa 12,000 BC, humans in Palestine began to raise animals, to farm and produce handcrafts. For example, the skull of a dog, a picture of a bull carved into a bone and a sculpted piece of human skull, all dating back to that period, were found in the caves of Carmel.

Around 7000 BC, Jericho became the first place in Palestine where humans built dwellings for themselves and they also built a ten-meter high wall surround the city. Thus Jericho is considered to be the oldest continuously inhabited city on earth. Farming and animal breeding began there and stability characterized the area for more than a thousand years before they Mesopotamia-Somer (Iraq). The craft of pottery began in Jericho around 5000 BC, spreading from there to the rest of Palestine and Syria.

In several Palestinian cities, numerous artifacts from the Metallic Stone Age (c.4000 BC) were found, including in the city of Megiddo, where the oldest types of decorated pottery were discovered. In Beisan, excavations in 1921 and 1922 at ?Tel Al-Hesn? led to the discovery of an accumulated series of ruins of ancient cities, mounting to 18 layers, with the lower layers dating back to 4000 BC and the upper layers to the Middle Ages.

Around 5000 BC, the first wave of Semitic migrations began and by the end of the fourth millennium BC and the beginning of the third millennium, the Semites had left the desert towards Iraq. The Akkadians settled in the south and the Assyrians in the north. The Semites are one of the three lineages of which the white race in today?s world is traced back to, and the Arabian Peninsula is considered the original homeland of the Semitic race.

While already inhabited by people before recorded history, Palestine was subjected to a large influx of Semites from the Arabian Peninsula in the beginning of the 3rd millennium. This was known as the ?Amorite Canaanite?, which increased around 2500 BC when the Amorites migrated to Greater Syria, to its southeastern parts (Transjordan), and the Canaanites to the coast, southwestern parts (Palestine). As such, the country was named after them ? the land of Canaan ? which is the oldest name given to our country, Palestine. The Canaanites ruled for nearly 1500 years. >>
>>

 

[Valhalla1]

oh please, u think I dont like jews because I linked a humorous photo which is cropped so its taken out of context, from a site full of wacko (but fun to read) conspriacy theories? that is weak...

me, I like conspiracies and crazy theories about things that happened... sure they can be rediculous and no where near the truth, but they are fun to read about and they open the mind to outlandish possiblities that you would have never considered. and this prepares you for times when fact is truly stranger than fiction. that doesnt make me an anti-jew neo-nazi KKK'er

ps- check out http://www.flight93crash.com to read about how Flight 93 was shot down over penn. on 9/11.

 

[etech]

Valhalla1

That is one sick site that you linked to.

I remember seeing the orginal picture that they one you posted to was cropped from. President Bush is saluting the American flag. The Israeli flag is just on the same stage. It takes a sick mind to post that picture and try to present it as something it is not.

 

[Riprorin]

<< From what I understand, Palestine, Jordan, and Israel are all entities that have only existed recently. I always wonder why didn't the Palestinians just consider Jordan as their homeland when that land was partitioned into Jordan and Israel. >>



Repost

Arabs claim that Palestinians had lived in Palestine from time immemorial. Why then the curious clause in the 1948 United Nations resolution pertaining to the
definition of a Palestinian refugee? The definition had as a Palestinian refugee any one who had lived in Palestine for a minimum of two years prior
to departing the country.

According to a book by Joan Peters, the idea of "from time immemorial" did not surface in Arab propaganda against Israel until fairly recent times and was given special focus only after the Six Day War when the Arab
worls was dispirited by its loss to Israel.

Arab propagandists felt that the only way to maintain the hatred of the Palestinian refugees against Israel was to invent for them a pedigree tied to the land. That hatred was useful from the Arabs' long range goal of eliminating from their midst an anomaly with which they could not live - a Jewish state.

Why the Arabs cannot tolerate the idea of a Jewish political entity in their geographical sphere is another question answered by Peters who presents a clear survey of the Muslim presumption to dominion over
other groups.


Additionally

Peters discovered that the vast majority of Palestinians who left Palestine during or before the War of Independence, immigrated to Palestine or were themselves the children of immigrants. Between 1917 and 1948 hundreds of thousands of Egyptians, Syrians and other Arab-speaking people entered Palestine. They had two reasons: to profit from the dynamic economy spurred by the Zionist enterprise and, to assert against the Jewish population of the country an Arab presence. Joan Peters claims that the British deliberately obfuscated the question of the Arab influx into Palestine out of a desire to repudiate the promises made to the Jewish people under the terms of the Balfour Declaration. The more Arabs there were in Palestine, the harder it would be for the Jews to invoke their claim

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<< Czar, this doesn't say anything about how Palestine originated! All it says is that people have lived in that land for a long time. It's like someone writing about the history of the US and describing how ancient people (Indians) inhabited the land thousands of years ago -- but the US has only existed for a little over 200 years.

From what I understand, Palestine, Jordan, and Israel are all entities that have only existed recently. I always wonder why didn't the Palestinians just consider Jordan as their homeland when that land was partitioned into Jordan and Israel. >>



Um, Israel was Israel as far back as about 1300 B.C. It's been full of actual Jews for nearly as long.

point
and even a
counter point
One has inaccuracies, the other propaganda, so I listed both.

 

[ThePresence]

<< oh please, u think I dont like jews because I linked a humorous photo which is cropped so its taken out of context, from a site full of wacko (but fun to read) conspriacy theories? that is weak...

me, I like conspiracies and crazy theories about things that happened... sure they can be rediculous and no where near the truth, but they are fun to read about and they open the mind to outlandish possiblities that you would have never considered. and this prepares you for times when fact is truly stranger than fiction. that doesnt make me an anti-jew neo-nazi KKK'er

ps- check out http://www.flight93crash.com to read about how Flight 93 was shot down over penn. on 9/11. >>



Please excuse me for not finding the humor in this conflict. My bad.

 

Oh my good Lord! There is nothing as saddening and as pathetic as watching some emotionally disturbed human beings desperately seek help by using impudent, daunting and aggressive responses and attacks on the 'net.

Russ, hon', I wish I could really help you. You seriously do need help. The saddest part is this comes from an old man whom one would think would demonstrate civility to the young.

Russ, what a sad life. It continues to puzzle me how one could have possibly been deprived of affection for the whole at least 45 years of his life. Hungry for a massage again? :Q I think that should work.

Riprorin, are you by chance related to Ripon? Well, that's besides the point. I just wanted to advise you to take a look at your statament here and then your statements here:

[Riprorin to Valhalla1:] "At least he graduated from high school, what about you? Isn't it time to grow up and stop being a punk?

Why don't you save some bandwidth if you don't have anything intelligent to add to the discussion."

[Riprorin to Valhalla1:] "Have a problem with a book description? What's wrong too many words?

Are you capable of an intelligent thought or just ad hominem attacks?"

[Now Riprorin to Czar:] "[Czar:] 'I have just never found that personal insults get people anywhere so I'm trying to figure out why you belive personal insult will get you anywhere.'

[Riprorin:] Jeez, get over it already. What are you twelve years old?

If you're going to post on an emotionally charged issue, why don't you do your homework and get your facts straight? It will save you some'insults'."[/i]

Are not those two paragraphs contradictory or at least clearly hypocritical? Have you any religious leaning? If so, have not you been taught that malicious or deliberate inconsisitency is a transgression? Why have you chosen to tresspass against your fellow human beings on the basis of their positions on a geopolitical matter? Are not you of some spiritual leaning? If you aren't, forgive me for assuming some sense of ethics or intellectual honesty in my fellow human being.

If I may ask: What exactly makes the author you have quoted the utmost and supreme qualified authority for the history of that region and its people? Is she (he?) some divinely annointed person? If so, have you any proof of it? Care to tell me more and clear me of my confusion/naivity?

It is sad to see a thread intended for true knowledge deteriorate into another crappy indoctrination and propaganda.

To the original poster: If you want true or fair knowledge of that region and its history, read books from several sources. You can hardly find objectigve reports 'cuz each is always biased.

As human being, we all have a tendency to suppress that which is unfavourable to us and champion that which favours us. It is human nature. You will get that from both sides. So if you really wish to reach a conclusion from a stimulating and progressive point of view, read both sides. You will unravel some information hidden by side A and another hidden by side B.

Etech, I don't think your link throws in any confusion. I think it is clear your link speaks of conversion/interracial relationships. It is quite different from what it appears the original poster intended: From an historical point of view, who are the Jews and Arabs?

I think to throw in more confusion would be to include the Ethiopian Jews. Rarely do we hear much about them. Last I heard about them was when it concerned discrimination whenever they donated blood(?) it was gotten rid of deliberately without their knowlegde.

Aren't there supposedly a bunch of lost tribes still whose trails are unknown or no trace was found?

Storm Rider, I think you should point that out to Russ, 'cuz, as it appears, he couldn't distinguish between the semantical meaning and syntactical implication of the statements from the link Czar posted. He apparently bought into the idea that the U.N. (who ironically was behind the formulation of the nation of Israel) was in a conspiracy or hatred of Jews not to ever give a relatively fair report on the history of that region without taking sides, such as x existed at that region and x was man and man of a different race or man of an unidentified race.

 

[etech]

Oh my good Lord! There is nothign as saddening and as pathetic as watching some emotionally disturbed human beings desperately seek help by using impudent, daunting and aggressive responses and attacks on the 'net.

Which is then followed by an entire treatise on the exact problems they face in your eyes.

Anyway, you are wrong in your assumption, at least with one group.

"I think it is clear your link speaks of conversion/interracial relationships. "

The Lemba, The Black Jews of Southern Africa

"Tudor Parfitt, the protagonist of the NOVA documentary "Lost Tribes of Israel," made a journey through southern Africa to study the unusual traditions of a black African tribe called the Lemba. This Bantu-speaking group claimed Jewish ancestry and observed many Semitic traditions such as kosher-like dietary restrictions and slaughter practices, male circumcision rites, strict rules against intermarriage, and Semitic-sounding clan names.
....
What this study shows is that the Lemba, and more specifically some members of the Buba sub-clan, seem to have an ancestral connection to Judaic populations. Like an oral history, but written in the letters of their DNA, the Lemba Y chromosome hands from father to son a living record of the past."

 

Etech, if I'm guilty of that, then I accept it, for others are my mirror as I am others' mirror.

However, coming to your second point: The link you gave earlier was about Jews by conversion/interracial marriages. That to me did not in any way confuse one about the history of that region and the people there tracing back to their ancestors. It was some link to www.blackjews.org, who were primarily African-Americans and were Jews by conversion or products of interracial relationships.

Now, the new link you gave certainly does. I accept the statements made in the new link, which is very different from your earlier link you threw to confuse the issue a little more.

Btw, I appreciate the link. I never saw that on PBS before. I would love to watch it. Thank you!

 

[Riprorin]

luvly, I was defending another poster from a personal attack. I never respond in that manner when I am being attacked.

Is the author I quoted authoritative? I can only say that the book is well researched and she was sympathtic to the Palestinian "refugees" until she visited the camps and started digging into the history of the region. To the best of my knowledge, she has no axe to grind.

I'm not sure exactly what the point of your post other than to rip Russ and point out what a hypocrite I am. Does it bother you that people take a stand on an issue and are passionate about it?

Getting back to the issue at hand, can anyone explain why Arab countries didn't absorb there brethern from western Palastine four decades ago rather than using them as a political weapon against Israel?

Interestingly, In 1922 the League of Nations recognized the legal, moral and historic right of the Jewish people to a national homeland in Palestine?including Jerusalem. When Israel was invaded in 1948 by 6 Arab nations, the Arab State of Transjordan captured East Jerusalem, expelled all Jews and desecrated all Jewish holy sites. Defying the U.N. Mandate, Transjordan also occupied the west bank of the River Jordan. In the 1967 Six Day War, under the threat of being pushed into the sea by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Israel actually liberated the occupied territory of Jerusalem and granted free access to Jews, Christians and Moslems to worship at their respective Holy sites. Israel also liberated the West Bank and Gaza. To the best of my knowledge, Palestinians have fared much better under Israeli administration than under occupation by their fellow Arabs.


luvly, would you care to enlighten us on your view of the current situation?

 

[TheWart]

O man, I have been getting a few chickles out of this thread/topic for the last few days (not on what has been happening in the ME, but rather what some people pull out of their behind as evidence).

Anyway, Czar, one of your complaints was that Israel does not give aid to the Palestinians or let ambulances get through, etc, maybe this is why: Saddening...

Also, I find it hilarious when people quote from that palestine-info site or whatever, when it is run by Hamas, a terrorist organization as of about a week ago (?) when the state department said they were. Arafat/Hamas/Fatah/Force 17 (did i leave one out...o yeah, practically all of the ME) have said, still say they will not stop till Israel is gone, not a peace treaty, but off the face of the earth. THe Israeli's have offered compromises time and time again...but they get turned down b/c in the arab mindset, it is all or nothing. People pick on Israel when they "retaliate" b/c it is the classic case of the schoolyard bully. Israel's miltary is the equivalent of the big dude, and he is of course to blame, even when some snot-nose gradeschool kid (Syria etc) start the fight (Yom-Kippur war), the big "bully" is to blame.

Lastly, I find it ludicrous, that people support Palestinian actions....after all, isnt Bin laden/Al Queda doing the same thing...killing innocent people to make a point?

 

[Riprorin]

Yes, it is ludicrous. How anyone can be an apologist for the Palestinians is beyond me.

 

[Siddhartha]

People who lived in Palestine.

 

[shurato]

riprorin you say you make those kind of childish insults and remarks to defend russ yet you wouldn't make it when flames were directed at you? why dont you get your nose out of someones asshole. you actually had me interested in what you had to say especially about the book till you started acting like an idiot. w00t flame on...someone defend riprorin now and flame me.

 

[Czar]

Xerox Man,
then I ask you, what good will it do you to beat me up and rob me? woll that solve any of your problems?
yes and go see the blue lagoon while you are at it, a very beautiful place

DaveSohmer,
Yes I missed that incident:frown:

StormRider,
That is true, Palestine as it is today started when Israel was formed with the original un proposals.

Gonad the Barbarian,
Before 1900 Israel had about 50000 Jews while about 500000 muslims lived there.

TheWart,
It seems that this is the first evedence presented that Palestinians have used ambulences for storing weapons. Then both parties are abusing medical aid, I read on the local teletext that when the Israelis invated the Palestinian terratories yesterday that they used ambulances as covers, forced the drivers to drive forward slowly and stayd behind them for cover.

 

[Czar]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg
map of Palestine dated 1849



<< [Palestine] Palaestina (645K)
From "A Classical Atlas, to Illustrate Ancient Geography; Comprised in Twenty-Five maps, Showing the Various Divisions of the World as Known to the Ancients; Composed from the Most Authentic Sources." by Alexander G. Findlay, F.R.G.S. 1849. >>

 

[StormRider]

<<
Um, Israel was Israel as far back as about 1300 B.C. It's been full of actual Jews for nearly as long.

point
and even a
counter point
One has inaccuracies, the other propaganda, so I listed both.
>>



Thanks for the links -- I found them both very interesting to read.

 

[Insomniac]

Here is what I believe to be a pretty accurate timeline.

History Timeline for Israel

I think it would be fair to say that the Palestinians and Israelis both arrived around the same time. I also do not think there will ever be a peaceful resolution because the Palestinians won't be happy until they get their own state (including Jerusalem) and Israel will never let that happen.

Here is a question. What do you think would be happening today if a State of Palestine was declared instead of Israel?

 

[Texmaster]

<< Russ, calling Czar pro-terrorist is like calling you pro-facist. They are both wrong and overgeneralizations. You sound like Tom and Tex. >>



LOL And I didn't have one post in this thread up to now

Piano Man, don't be a moron. You make this far too easy.

 

[killface]

Etech,


<< Is anyone else here old enough to have watched the 72 Olympics live on TV, if so you'll understand why I support Israel. >>


You've said this a couple of times - what exactly happened at the '72 olympics?