Who Enron gave $$ to

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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
mork,

People that worked for enron did not lose all the 401k. They lost what enron contributed to their 401k plans in stock.
The money that the individual contributed is still there. I am sure this time last year, there were tons of people that were quite proud to have $90 enron stock shares they could not sell.
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
Fact is, Bush and co. knew about Enron's situation well before its stock's fallout. While the executives were able to liquidate $1 billion in stock, the rest of the workers were disallowed and lost all their 401(k) pension and other things.


Employees were limited to selling THEIR stock for a total of ten days due to changing of 401K providers. They had TWENTY different funds in which to choose from. THE ONLY LIMITS were on the company match (which is FREE MONEY) that was in ENRON stock. Thoose who had every thing in ONE STOCK for there retirement are truely fools.
 

BlueApple

Banned
Jul 5, 2001
2,884
0
0


<< For a start, it denies groups of individuals from running television ads 60 days before an election if they are in any way conected to politics. Remember the 1st Amendment? That is just one issue of many written into the McCain Feingold bill. >>


Money is not distributed equally among people, but free speech is. Nice try though.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
Fact is, Bush and co. knew about Enron's situation well before its stock's fallout. While the executives were able to liquidate $1 billion in stock, the rest of the workers were disallowed and lost all their 401(k) pension and other things.

If Bush and co. had said or done anything, would that not have qualified as insider trading?
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0


<< If Bush and co. had said or done anything, would that not have qualified as insider trading? >>



If they disclosed what they knew, it couldn't be insider trading.

The only way it could be insider trading is if they used the info to influence the buying and selling of their stocks. From what I remember, most Bushies have their stocks in blind trusts or they have sold Enron shares before taking office.

No one says it's the government's responsibility to warn consumers about a company's collapse...espescially when it's reported in the media.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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Enron did not get short changed by the Bush administration. One of the first to-do's during the late winter was the administration forcing out the Chair of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission . . . and according to the Wall Street Journal the replacement was hand-picked by Chairman Lay of Enron. They wanted this guy to get the heave-ho b/c he wasn't a strong supporter of the "reforms" Enron desired.

Then you come to Cheney's Energy Plan. Enron bought and paid for a seat at the table to plan out the next decade of energy exploration, production, and distribution in the United States. If you doubt my interpretation just look at the documents . . . oops you can't b/c Cheney has refused to provide them to the Senate, House, or GAO. They definitely won't come out now b/c it might be the smoking gun to show quid pro quo (money provided to GOP/Bush to set policy and get payback).

To be fair, Bush has always been in bed with these guys. They think alike . . . ie not much. And it is quite reasonable to say the contributions reflect their shared values.
 
Jul 1, 2000
10,274
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Blueapple-

You're wrong. Actually, campaign contributions have been recognized as constitutionally protected speech, at least in the eyes of the Supreme Court. I forgot the name of the decision, but I remember having read it.

In this area, some people can buy more speech than others. That may suck, but that is the way things are.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Fact is, Bush and co. knew about Enron's situation well before its stock's fallout. While the executives were able to liquidate $1 billion in stock, the rest of the workers were disallowed and lost all their 401(k) pension and other things.

You can't hold the President responsible for every shady business practice committed by a company that supports him. If Enron had gone public (ala Chrysler), Bush might have had a chance to help them out (and by extension the employees). But the vast majority of responsibility lies with Enron and Arthur Andersen. But if Bush truly did not know about Enron's problems it appears Secs. of Treasury and Commerce were working to cover his buttocks. I understand loyalty but how can you claim to be a leader if your underlings believe they know what is best for you not to know?
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0


<< Then you come to Cheney's Energy Plan. Enron bought and paid for a seat at the table to plan out the next decade of energy exploration, production, and distribution in the United States. >>


So who should be helping us plan out the energy policy? The president of intel? Wal-mart? IBM? Give it a rest. The BIG CONSPIRACY ain't gonna happen.
 
Jul 1, 2000
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McCain Feingold will at least give the high court another crack at looking at the extent to which contributions constitute free speech.

I think that it is largely unconstitutional and would not pass muster if tested before the Supreme Court.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
So who should be helping us plan out the energy policy? The president of intel? Wal-mart? IBM? Give it a rest. The BIG CONSPIRACY ain't gonna happen.

Oh does Enron deserve to be a voice? Absolutely! But should their voice be louder than say. . . the Sierra Club? Yes, absolutely! But should their ideas be public and their motivations examined? Yes, absolutely!


I don't have to give a damn thing a rest b/c this is free speech central . . . really free ie I don't have to give $100K to sit at a table with the President and Vice President (first big fundraiser of last year generated over $28 million for the GOP with the Dems hot on their heels in the low20s).

A conspiracy implies a secret plot by a few to carry out a specific action. Well, do you know any details about what transpired during those meetings any more so than Hillary Clinton's Healthcare Working Group? I shouldn't know everything the CIA or DOD have their grubby hands in. But the only way to insure that government serves the greater good and not the interests of a few is openness.

If Bush's "Fossil Fuels R Us" . . . I mean Energy Plan had been passed by Congress, can you imagine the possibilities? Enron could hide it's shell-game accounting under future acquisitions of companies . . . transferring debt in return for stock . . . based on inflated profit based on debt shifted to companies that it now owns. Do you think they would have turned over a new leaf and returned to using basic arithmetic?

Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. The big conspiracy happens every day. Do you remember the stimulus package from the House that essential gave billions of dollars each to Ford, GE, and AT&T for taxes back to the mid-80s? If they had those billions now would it stimulate the economy? Hell no. Ford says it has excess capacity worldwide. GE got dissed by European Honey and AT&T can't run fast enough away from cable. So why give these companies billions . . . b/c they paid for it. Lobbyists and campaign contributions buy access to politicians and regulators who conspire to get you what you want.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< One of the first to-do's during the late winter was the administration forcing out the Chair of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission . . . >>



Now why is it that you refer to Bush appointing his own chairman (I'm assuming the above quote was a reference to Bush's appointment of Hebert that occurred nearly a year ago) to head this commission as "forcing out" Clinton's previous (and a one day interim appointment at that....) chairman? Likewise I also assume that you must believe that Janet Reno was "forced out" of the Justice Dept......it's amazing the lengths that some people will go to lace facts with their "spin" in the hope that some people just don't understand. Is your political party that impotent, and your faith in it's platform so weak, that you must resort to outright deception?

Bali, the self-described genius, I wonder who it is that "certified" your genius anyway?.....as I've yet to witness this quality of yours myself. I dare you to impress me.

Fortunately, the simple folk who might fall victim to your amateurish rhetoric already vote Democrat.... ;)
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0


<< A conspiracy implies a secret plot by a few to carry out a specific action. Well, do you know any details about what transpired during those meetings any more so than Hillary Clinton's Healthcare Working Group? I shouldn't know everything the CIA or DOD have their grubby hands in. But the only way to insure that government serves the greater good and not the interests of a few is openness >>


Yeah, I know exactly what transpired. It's called Tricare (the military healthcare that was going to be the model for the national healthcare) and it made a marginal system worse. It took them years to fix it. It was one of many of the social experiments that the Clinton White House forced upon the military.


<< If Bush's "Fossil Fuels R Us" . . . I mean Energy Plan had been passed by Congress, can you imagine the possibilities? Enron could hide it's shell-game accounting under future acquisitions of companies . . . transferring debt in return for stock . . . based on inflated profit based on debt shifted to companies that it now owns. Do you think they would have turned over a new leaf and returned to using basic arithmetic? >>


I don't understand this at all. How does the energy bill link to Enron's creative accounting.


<< Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. The big conspiracy happens every day. Do you remember the stimulus package from the House that essential gave billions of dollars each to Ford, GE, and AT&T for taxes back to the mid-80s? If they had those billions now would it stimulate the economy? Hell no. Ford says it has excess capacity worldwide. GE got dissed by European Honey and AT&T can't run fast enough away from cable. So why give these companies billions . . . b/c they paid for it. Lobbyists and campaign contributions buy access to politicians and regulators who conspire to get you what you want. >>


This is almost as stupid a statement as " the tax cut made the recession worse". How many people have these companies laid off or plan to lay off? Do you think if they had this capital they would still have to. No, I'm sure you don't. I'm sure you think some big conspiracy would be in place for someones pockets to get lined. Typical Demoidiot ideology, "give it to us, you're not smart enough to spend it yourself...big business is evil...blah, blah, blah"
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
146
This conspiracy crap is a laugh.

Let's see. You're an energy company. Your arch nemisis are the greenies and the environuts who fight your every move, and seek to cost you billions in questionable refits and upgrades. Which political party are you going to support more? The party that is filled with tree huggers, or the party that drinks beer and beats the crap out of granola heads? :D

Seriously, though, the fact that an energy company would give more to Republicans is a no-brainer. If it was your company, you'd do the same no matter how socially liberal you are.

It's pretty silly that people are unable to believe someone just might support a party because that party supported the person's interests to begin with, and NOT because they're trying to buy favor.

If I give $100,000 to a pro 2nd amendment politician's reelection fund, am I buying his favor, or supporting him because he supports my cause? Well, according to some folks, I've bought him off and made him vote against gun control :confused:
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
How many people have these companies laid off or plan to lay off? Do you think if they had this capital they would still have to. No, I'm sure you don't.
Ford posts $5billion dollar loss (WSJ)
Ford is not laying off employees b/c it doesn't have capital. It's laying off employees b/c of exploding Firestones, better made imports, and overall reduced demand. Ford purchased Volvo AND Land Rover in the past year . . . during one quarter last year Ford was the most profitable US automaker. If Ford had this capital it would invest the money to increase plant efficiency and develop new products. A tax refund is obviously cheaper than new bonds. But they would still make fewer cars and trucks (have you seen many Escorts or Continentals lately) in 2002 than 2001. I'm not a savant but they would probably need fewer employees to make fewer vehicles. AT&T is a basket case just like Motorola. Great company name with poor management in fiercely competitive markets.

Typical Demoidiot ideology, "give it to us, you're not smart enough to spend it yourself...big business is evil...blah, blah, blah"
Damn you sound idiotic. Many American businesses that are treading water (or sinking) have poor management. GM is kicking glutes b/c they invested in new products and didn't kill anyone (at least not as many as Ford) trying to save pennies on tires. You could make a case that Ralph Nader is the best thing ever to happen to GM (I doubt they would agree). Big business is NOT evil. It is not good either. It is amoral. Most know better than pretend they put America first. They put profit first if not they won't have a business. As far as economic systems go capitalism rules the roost in innovation and productivity. But as part of a society they should pay their share to support the country that provides an environment in which they can profit.


Now why is it that you refer to Bush appointing his own chairman (I'm assuming the above quote was a reference to Bush's appointment of Hebert that occurred nearly a year ago) to head this commission as "forcing out" Clinton's previous (and a one day interim appointment at that....) chairman? Do you follow politics? Who cares about Clinton? Bush appointed Hebert (rabid pro-market and the only Republican on FERC at the time) to the Chair in January; claiming he was THE right man for the job. Then after Lay personally objected (according to an old Business Week article and recent NYT) he made it clear to Hebert that Pat Wood would be taking over FERC. Hebert then resigned effective aug31.
Bush replaces HIS chair appointee to FERC with the Enron-endorsed Wood (Morning Sun World News)

Likewise I also assume that you must believe that Janet Reno was "forced out" of the Justice Dept......
Well of course not Presidents have the right to make their own appointments. But from the chronology you have to draw some kind of conclusions if Bush names a fervent pro-market Republican chair and then changes his mind a few months later and names the Chair of the Texas Energy Commission. It's not like he didn't know who these guys were.

it's amazing the lengths that some people will go to lace facts with their "spin" in the hope that some people just don't understand. Is your political party that impotent, and your faith in it's platform so weak, that you must resort to outright deception?
I just laid out the facts including chronology. If you doubt the facts search Business Week or WSJ back to December2000-Jan2001 and then the subsequent events of the Spring and Summer. I don't have a political party. But the two majors in America are both impotent. Have faith in God but none in any "platform" . . . furthermore I prefer my ideas to be original not a slogan. If you can provide verifiable proof that ANY of my previous statements are deceptive, I will immediately recant (the misleading statement) . . . but the Op-Ed page does not constitute proof.

don't understand this at all. How does the energy bill link to Enron's creative accounting.
Enron owns some generation capacity but their claim to fame was the ability to play broker ie make money buying/selling/reselling energy/trading energy. In such an environment their biggest issue was not Kyoto (which according to the editor of National Review on MSNBC last night Enron supported) but transmission. Enron needs energy (particularly electricity) to be expensive (for the consumer) but also has to have means of transport. Do you remember Dick Cheney lamenting about the poor transmission infrastructure last year? Anyway, Enron wanted to be AT&T they wanted to own as many lines as possible and charge for access. But transmission is more tightly regulated than production. So not only did they need massive outlays to acquire generating capacity and transmission lines but they also needed regulatory relief so they could maximize the return on investment. Accordingly they spent money they did not have to buy plants and lines while opposing Hebert's appointment. Hebert is by no means granola he truly believes in the market. In keeping he knows a market of one private enterprise is just as dysfunctional as a market of one government. Unfortunately for Enron, FERC-mandated caps and mild weather dramatically reduced the price and demand for electricity while it's shell-game of special purpose entities began to fall apart since they served no purpose other than hide debt.



Yeah, I know exactly what transpired. It's called Tricare (the military healthcare that was going to be the model for the national healthcare) and it made a marginal system worse. It took them years to fix it. It was one of many of the social experiments that the Clinton White House forced upon the military.
That's a patent lie . . . point me to a full disclosure of those meetings that was available at the time they were drafting a legislative framework. I doubt you can b/c they worked in secret and leaked details. Like many others at the time I was appalled that such a monumental task would be turned over to a small cadre of unelected bureaucrats working in closed sessions. It's part of the reason my old party (along with every vested interest) protested so much. As for Tricare being THE model for national healthcare that's laughable, although the systems do share aspects. Military med sux in part b/c the pay (for docs) sux, the requirements bite, and the military chronically underfunds such endeavors.

Bali, the self-described genius, I wonder who it is that "certified" your genius anyway?.....as I've yet to witness this quality of yours myself. I dare you to impress me. Fortunately, the simple folk who might fall victim to your amateurish rhetoric already vote Democrat.... Nice to hear from you Corn, Stanford-Binet "certified" my genius when I was child but consistent with your observation I do appear to be getting dumber with age ;). I think I made the comment in response to a query where you brought up genius. Regardless, it was quite pompous of me to make the statement. As for my rhetoric being amateurish . . . I won't dare but I will challenge you to a duel. You pick the topic we will agree on a time and venue . . . with the goal being best developed (and supported) rhetorical argument (exposition, explanation). As for Democrats . . . well they are intellectually crippled for the same reason as Republicans . . . lack of reasoned, critical thought.

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< I just laid out the facts including chronology. >>



Had you been more chronologically correct from the onset, you might not have had to exercise those carpals so vigorously:

<< One of the first to-do's during the late winter was the administration forcing out the Chair of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. >>



Take a look at the date of the byline in your link and you'll see the reason for my mis-understanding of your original point. Besides, the philosophical differences between Enron and Hebert didn't come to a head until late spring.......I award both of us a pass. ;)

As far as the Hebert-Lay "conversations" are concerned, well what can I say, sour grapes? Eh, maybe, maybe not...he said, she said, and all that jazz. Yadda yadda. Unfortunately someone's expected to "toe" the line, and even though Mr. Hebert said the decision to resign was his and his alone, I'm sure he saw the writing on the wall......

The duel sounds like fun. Any topics you might have in mind? It doesn't have to be a serious topic either. PM me......
 

Logix

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2001
3,627
0
0


<< And all that money Enron gave to the Republicans bought them dick when they came begging for help.

So where's the impropriety?
>>


I agree. Where's the beef?