• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Who are the good guys?

jinduy

Diamond Member
i haven't kept up with the news and politics much but looks like things are going to get rocky real fast now... the stock market is taking a real hit as a result of this news and oil is heading to $80 a barrel (say hello to $4+ gas).

so do you guys support israel's decision to bomb on lebanon?
 
The ones in the white hats are the good guys and the ones in the black hats are the bad guys. We want the white hat guys to kill as many of the black hat guys as possible.

Didn't you know that?
 
It?s war, both sides ?are the good guys? for anyone on their side.

Peace will come when the aggressors surrender, so if you?re rooting for peace you should want the terrorist groups to lose their ability to maintain this war. If Israel loses, they?ll simply continue to suffer attacks as they have been this entire time.
 
Not the bush administration. They're the clueless guys.

bush went looking for trouble where there was none and now he's clueless as to how to handle the trouble that's come looking for him.

I hope he enjoys the pig roast. :roll:

American policy in Middle East caught in 'a perfect storm'

By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 13 July 2006

Rarely can United States policy in the Middle East have been in such disarray as now.

Events in Iraq are a fair approximation of civil war, while after a brief display of smiles, Iran is more truculent than ever over its nuclear ambitions.

As for Israel, far from moving towards peace with its neighbours, the Jewish state is embroiled in an escalating, two-front confrontation with Lebanon and Syria to its north, and with the Palestinians in its midst.

Three years ago when the US invaded Iraq, vowing to install a stable peaceful democracy that would be a model for the region, such a state of affairs was unthinkable in Washington. The war would be brief, policy makers asserted, and Iraq's various ethnic and religious groups would come together to build a new country after the departure of the brutal and hated Saddam Hussein. American troops would be fêted and made welcome as liberators.

That was the spring of 2003. By mid-July 2006, some 2,550 US troops have lost their lives in a war costing $250m (£136m) a day, while the death toll among Iraqis may be five times as high.

In the past four days, at least 130 people in and around Baghdad have been killed in sectarian violence, including up to 23 Shias seized yesterday at a bus station north of the capital. The killings have made a mockery of the proclaimed security crackdown in Baghdad by the new Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki.

Iran meanwhile seems less inclined than ever to give up its nuclear ambitions. Yesterday, the world's major powers referred Iran back to the United Nations Security Council after its failure to reply to the West's offer last month of incentives to halt is uranium enrichment activities.

But Russia and China have shown no sign of willingness to adopt tough sanctions against the Islamic regime in Tehran. And in the end America may be faced with a choice akin to the one it faced over Iraq: either acquiesce in doing virtually nothing - or bypass the UN and form a new "coalition of the willing" to take tougher, conceivably even military, action.

To these two flashpoints, a third has now been added: Israel's reprisals against the Palestinians over one of its soldiers taken hostage last month on the border with Gaza. Some 50 Palestinians have now been killed.

The crisis spread to confrontation yesterday with Hizbollah guerrillas, backed by Syria and Iran, in southern Lebanon, after incidents in which three Israeli soldiers were killed and two others captured.

The White House insists that its policies are on track. If there are "a lot of issues in motion", according to Stephen Hadley, Mr Bush's National Security Adviser, "in some sense, it was destined to be. We have a president that wants to take on the big issues and see if he could solve them on his watch."

More probably an administration whose energies have been consumed by the war in Iraq, on which Mr Bush has staked his presidency, may be simply overwhelmed. The separate crises amount to "a perfect storm", Madeleine Albright, who was Secretary of State under Bill Clinton, told The Washington Post last week. "We have not been paying attention to a lot of these issues."

In the latest flare-up between Israel and its neighbours, Washington has been almost silent. Condoleezza Rice, the Secretary of State, who is struggling to orchestrate the response to Iran's defiance, merely blamed Hizbollah for upsetting "regional stability", and urged Syria to rein in its radical protégés.

But Washington's rebukes are far less pointed than a year ago, in the aftermath of the St Valentine's Day assassination of the former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri - when the talk here was of "regime change" in Damascus to follow that in Baghdad.

The change reflects a growing, if tacit, acceptance that the unilateralist "Bush doctrine", involving pre-emptive action if necessary to remove a threat, is beyond the power of even the US to implement on its own. Hence the President's more restrained tone of late, encapsulated by Time magazine's latest cover, proclaiming an end to "Cowboy Diplomacy". The problems also reflect a failure to think its policies through. The irony is that Hizbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Palestine achieved their roles in government thanks to democratic elections - exactly what Washington has been advocating for the entire Middle East.

On the periphery of the region, meanwhile, the problems grow more daunting, with the renewed Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan and the apparent seizure of control of much of Somalia, long a potential terrorist redoubt, by Islamic fundamentalist groups.

Further afield, North Korea's brazen missile tests may be a sign that, like Iran, the reclusive Communist regime does not believe that with so many of its forces tied down in Iraq, Washington has a viable military option.
 
Bush is the good guys (because he is so clueless he is innocent)

Really, there is no good guys including Israel and the rest of the Arabs. But that doesn't mean there is no suffering on either side. I'd say to hell with all of them and let's just withdraw our billion dollar funding to both side, and put those toward education locally in the US. Or if we really want war, go to Somali, their fundamentalist warlord just won and defeated the US backed warlord. That's where people need help, that's where we should go, not Iraq.
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
Whichever side kills more for their God is the good guys

Both sides are guilty of genocide. First the Isralies at Jericho then the Arabs latter on all in the name of God.


God is one sick bastard! He promised the land of Canen to the Jews all they had to do was kill everyone to get it.
 
I would like to know what Israel would consider a victory - complete elimination of all Arabs? Because anything less, like the destruction of their infrastructure or the killing of their religeous leaders, will simply create more anger and voilence from the next generation of Arab teenagers who are just now asking the question - "who's side am I on?"

 
Everyone is guilty over there now (maybe responsible is a better word).

Eventually the Arabs/Palestinians need to come to the realization that Israel isn't going anywhere and to just make a deal they can live with over the long term and reign in their fundies.

The only other option is for the Arabs/Pal to make a go of trying to wipe Israel out once and for all. This is decidedly a risky proposition since Israel is a nuclear power and might well use it if they found themselves facing total defeat and likely genocide (even if they manage to overcome their formidable conventional forces).

I suspect this whole sh!tty situation will just continue to drag out painfully for quite some time to come.
 
bush went looking for trouble where there was none and now he's clueless as to how to handle the trouble that's come looking for him.

Why would you even bring Bush into this?

Stupid, just plain stupid and totally off topic.

Guess we know how you attempt to justify everything - with plain and utter idiocy.
 
Originally posted by: irwincur
bush went looking for trouble where there was none and now he's clueless as to how to handle the trouble that's come looking for him.

Why would you even bring Bush into this?

Stupid, just plain stupid and totally off topic.

Guess we know how you attempt to justify everything - with plain and utter idiocy.

Shame on you for calling Bush plane and utter idiocy.
 
Originally posted by: irwincur
bush went looking for trouble where there was none and now he's clueless as to how to handle the trouble that's come looking for him.

Why would you even bring Bush into this?

Stupid, just plain stupid and totally off topic.

Guess we know how you attempt to justify everything - with plain and utter idiocy.

Speaking of just plain stupid, who other than the "leader of the free world" and the only remaining super power whose interests are strategically tied to the region should be brokering this latest conflict?

In case you haven't noticed, the entire world is asking "where is America" while the clueless one remains clueless. bush's policies now have the USA in a position where WE DON'T EVEN HAVE CONTACT WITH MOST OF THE PARTIES IN THE CONFLICT!

When the idiot was running for president people warned that he had NO foreign policy experience. Then he surrounded himself with reactionary zealots. bush's complete failure to even be at the table in a conflict that could easily ignite the entire Middle East, with the U.S. military stretched to the breaking point due to his further failure in his unprovoked invasion of Iraq, is a result of his inexperience and choice of incompetent cronies in his administration at every turn.

Read up and see who the real idiot is. (Hint: you'll need a mirror)

WHY ISRAEL HIT BACK SO HARD

Anna Badkhen, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, July 14, 2006

As the fighting in the Middle East threatens to turn into a regional crisis, only one power seems to be able to contain the conflict, experts say: the United States.

"No one can do it except for us," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington. "If we don't do it, this thing can become a broader regional conflict."

After mostly watching from the sidelines as Israeli troops attacked Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip in recent weeks, the White House weighed in Thursday with strong support of Israel's attacks in Lebanon and a warning to Syria to rein in Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon and Hamas militants in Gaza.

"Israel has a right to defend herself," Bush said at a joint news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Rostock, Germany. "Every nation must defend herself against terrorist attacks and the killing of innocent life."

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice warned Syria that "this is a situation that can be resolved if parties take responsible actions."

But some experts warn that the Bush administration's diplomatic options may be stretched too thin to mediate effectively and prevent major bloodletting.

The United States' ability to mediate as Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah "show that (they) can inflict greater harm on the other, and (are) not afraid of the harm that can be inflicted on them" is thwarted by Washington's lack of influence over any of the participants other than Israel, said Robert Malley, an expert on the region with the International Crisis Group.

"The real awkwardness is that the United States doesn't have leverage over (most of the warring) parties. It also has no contact with them," said Malley, who was a key member of then-President Bill Clinton's negotiating team at Camp David in 2000.

The United States considers both Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist organizations and refuses to deal with either of them. It is involved in a diplomatic standoff with Iran over that nation's nuclear program and has had no diplomatic relations with Syria since February 2005, when Washington called back its ambassador in Damascus in an effort to pressure Syria to withdraw its troops from Lebanon and to stop militants from crossing into Iraq.

"All they can do is engage in rhetorical diplomacy, asking parties to show restraint and telling Syria without talking to it that it needs to act responsibly. It only goes so far," Malley said.

Bush's strong words of support for Israel's retaliation also put on the line Washington's hopes that the European Union would join it in condemning Iran's nuclear ambitions and North Korea's long-range missile test at the Group of Eight summit in St. Petersburg, Russia, this weekend. Both the European Union and Russia sharply criticized Israel for launching an attack on Lebanon.

By supporting Israel, the administration also is losing its standing with the Lebanese public and the fragile democratic government in Beirut -- which has been Bush's poster boy for Western-style democracy in the Middle East, experts said.

"They believed that they were the center of the Bush administration's democratization program, and to suddenly have their international civilian airport bombed without much protest from the U.S. is pretty shocking for the Lebanese," said Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

Clayton Swisher, an expert at the Middle East Institute who was in Lebanon last week, said the disillusionment with the United States there has been brewing for some time.

"Christians in Lebanon are trying to distance themselves from America and forging a Christian-Shia alliance," Swisher said, referring to Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group. "These things, they flash like wildfire in the region, much faster than the Bush administration can catch up with."

Although Rice urged Israel to exercise restraint in its attacks against Lebanon, she did not specifically criticize it for the bombing of Beirut's civilian international airport and other targets. "I am not going to try to judge every single act," she said.

And yet despite those limitations, experts agree that the United States is best fit to contain the conflict.

"As the people with the luxury of strategic thinking, we need to impose some sort of strategic vision ... because everyone else is flailing," Alterman said.

One way to help quench the conflict, he added, would be to use public statements to "get messages back and forth to Iran," which wants to establish itself as a regional superpower, and to talk to Hezbollah through the government in Beirut.

"We have (indirect) ways to talk to everybody," he said.

The administration also could urge Beirut to move Lebanese troops to the south of the country, where there currently is no government presence and Hezbollah fighters are in control, said David Makovsky, an expert on the region at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

This would reduce Hezbollah's influence in southern Lebanon, where Lebanese troops did not deploy because of the region's occupation, first by Israeli troops, then by Syrian. "This is the moment in time to turn the crisis into an opportunity," Makovsky said. "We're sort of conditioned to pessimism in the Middle East, but everything's not lost."

PS Google news on the current conflict. Everyone is asking where the hell is America in this. After all, Israel is largely our own creation. Withoug American arms and support Israel wouldn't have the capabilities they are using to attack Lebanon. Or weren't you aware of that?

 
With stocks plummeting and oil reaching record prices I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would ask why bush should be involved in ending this conflict.

U.S. stocks lose more ground after Haifa news

NEW YORK, July 13 (Reuters) - U.S. blue chips fell nearly 1 percent on Thursday after a rocket hit the Israeli city of Haifa. Stocks added to losses caused by a record oil price that stoked fears of inflation and slower profit growth.

Steep energy prices were cited as a factor in the brokerage downgrade of retailer Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (WMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research), suggesting weakness in the retail sector.

The Israeli army said a rocket fired by Lebanese armed group Hizbollah hit Israel's third-largest city. Hizbollah denied firing a rocket at Haifa.

The escalating violence stifled an attempt by stocks to stage a recovery, traders said.

"We were trying to turn things around and rally a bit," before the Haifa news, said Tom Schrader, managing director, U.S. equity trading at Stifel Nicolaus Capital Markets, Baltimore.

Crude oil earlier rose above $76 a barrel after Israel blockaded Lebanese ports and struck Beirut's airport in reprisal for Hizbollah's kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

The Dow Jones industrial average <.DJI> was down 97.33 points, or 0.88 percent, at 10,915.85. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index <.SPX> was down 7.17 points, or 0.57 percent, at 1,251.43. The Nasdaq Composite Index <.IXIC> was down 13.71 points, or 0.66 percent, at 2,076.53.

But maybe you have a point. The moron would probably just do more harm than good anyway. He's about as bright as you are.
 
I would say the good guys are those who made huge, painful gestures for peace only to be met with more attacks and rocket fire. I'd say the bad guys are those who call for the complete destruction of the other, reject peace offerings in favor of pointless attacks, who bring a mighty military into their own backyard so they can cry to the world press when civillians inevitably are killed. Just my opinion.
 
Originally posted by: Trente
Note this: OVER 800!! - that is correct - 800 rockets have been fired to Israel from Lebanon so far.

How are you guys holdin up over there? Are you still working, and functioning as normal... or are things closed, and life at a standstill?
 
Originally posted by: PandaBear
Bush is the good guys (because he is so clueless he is innocent)

Really, there is no good guys including Israel and the rest of the Arabs. But that doesn't mean there is no suffering on either side. I'd say to hell with all of them and let's just withdraw our billion dollar funding to both side, and put those toward education locally in the US. Or if we really want war, go to Somali, their fundamentalist warlord just won and defeated the US backed warlord. That's where people need help, that's where we should go, not Iraq.

I agree with you man... I'm tire of this fckin' conflict with jews and arab, and we going to get our self into more issue in near future if we keep taking sides(jews).
 
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: Trente
Note this: OVER 800!! - that is correct - 800 rockets have been fired to Israel from Lebanon so far.

How are you guys holdin up over there? Are you still working, and functioning as normal... or are things closed, and life at a standstill?

Well basically we are still supposed to remain inside buildings and stay away from windows and such; but I don't intend to let this ruin a friday night out. I thought about visiting the site where a rocket fell off yesterday - just out of typical Israeli curiosity. Other than that everything is normal; I bet those who are up there in the far north would respond differently to your questions as they are the ones who suffer badly.
 
Originally posted by: mc00
Originally posted by: PandaBear
Bush is the good guys (because he is so clueless he is innocent)

Really, there is no good guys including Israel and the rest of the Arabs. But that doesn't mean there is no suffering on either side. I'd say to hell with all of them and let's just withdraw our billion dollar funding to both side, and put those toward education locally in the US. Or if we really want war, go to Somali, their fundamentalist warlord just won and defeated the US backed warlord. That's where people need help, that's where we should go, not Iraq.

I agree with you man... I'm tire of this fckin' conflict with jews and arab, and we going to get our self into more issue in near future if we keep taking sides(jews).

I AGREE!!! Lets all stick our heads in the sand, and pretent the rest of the world doesnt exist!!!! BRILLIANT!!

How big a wall do you think we can make around the USA? That oughta keep the pesky troublemakers out.

 
Back
Top