White men still dominating science posts

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
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CNN Link - White men dominate science posts

"""""OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- White men still dominate university professorships at the nation's top science and engineering schools, even where many of the doctoral students are women and minorities, according to the results of a survey released Thursday.

Women hold between 3 percent and 15 percent of full professorships in science and engineering at the schools surveyed, according to the report written by Donna J. Nelson, a University of Oklahoma chemistry professor who has written several studies on women and minorities in science.

As a result, women can earn their degrees without having a woman professor or even having access to a female faculty member, according to the survey.

"Women are less likely to go into and remain in science and engineering when they lack mentors and role models," the survey said. "When female professors are not hired, treated fairly and retained, female students perceive that they will be treated similarly."

In some instances, the percentage of female students far outweighs the proportion of professors of the same gender, the survey showed. For example, 48.2 percent of students earning bachelor's degrees in math were female, but only 8.3 percent of math professors were women.

Black, Hispanic and American Indian women have even fewer professorships than their white counterparts, according to the survey. For instance, it found no black, Hispanic or Indian women who were full professors at any of the top 50 computer science departments."'"""



Apparently racism in America has yet to be tackled in areas of higher learning, this is very discouraging news. :disgust:
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
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Regardless of whether discrimination is happening in the hireing process, I fail to see how your professor being male or female matters [to the students], and that "women are less likely to go into and remain in science and engineering when they lack mentors and role models."

Half of my teachers are female, but that doesn't have any effect on me at all. I'm there to learn, male or female.
 

peonyu

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Mar 12, 2003
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After 40 years of Affirmitve action and equal oppurtunity its amazing that there is not ONE black or hispanic Professor out of 50 computer science departments ! Since we are all equal, the only explanation for that is racism.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
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Originally posted by: peonyu
After 40 years of Affirmitve action and equal oppurtunity its amazing that there is not ONE black or hispanic Professor out of 50 computer science departments ! Since we are all equal, the only explanation for that is racism.

Not
one
black
Professor
?
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Peonyu:

Uh, I would love to support that premise, but I'm afraid the data wouldn't. :) Racism has undoubtedly played a PART, but the issue is complicated by other issues. Why, a talented black man might ask himself, would I teach chemistry at OSU for $50,000 a year (to pull an approximate number out of my butt), when I could practice law at a Wall Street law firm and earn $700,000 a year? College professors are, for the most part, woefully underpaid. Ditto for many very smart women. Women are going into law, dentistry and medicine in record numbers. I mean, if you are going to bust your hump, you might as well get paid for it AND get RESPECT.

And, I'm told, so many of those highly respected people feel so overvalued they come here so we can take them down a peg or two. Kind of like the leveling influence of teenagers on parents. :) The mods should really rename this group to: S & M. :) :) :) :)

-Robert
 

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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Wow! Nice find, guy!

I'm surprised, and pleasantly so. :)

So, there you have it. Another myth exploded right here on P & N by one our industrious SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOWS OF THE NIGHT! :) :)

-Robert
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: peonyu
After 40 years of Affirmitve action and equal oppurtunity its amazing that there is not ONE black or hispanic Professor out of 50 computer science departments ! Since we are all equal, the only explanation for that is racism.

AA doesnt produce equality, it does the opposite and promotes inequality.
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: chess9
Wow! Nice find, guy!

I'm surprised, and pleasantly so. :)

So, there you have it. Another myth exploded right here on P & N by one our industrious SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOWS OF THE NIGHT! :) :)

-Robert

what do you mean by 'myth exploded'?

the thing i wonder about after reading this post is weather or not the few women/minorities that are in fact science/math profs at major universities got those positions by merit, or by the same lower-then-everybody-else standard that got them their degree
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: peonyu
After 40 years of Affirmitve action and equal oppurtunity its amazing that there is not ONE black or hispanic Professor out of 50 computer science departments ! Since we are all equal, the only explanation for that is racism.

Or college just don't want to pay extra for an under qualified black person. There simple isn't many qualified black Ph.D to hire and compians can easly out spend all but the richest colleges. It just isn't possible for every one to reach the same precentage of blacks in the population.

Also I don't think there are many colleges in africa, unlike in asia, so we can't import educated black people to fill the positions on the cheap.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
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I meant top 50 computer departments in the nation, not just any department...
 

CrazyHelloDeli

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2001
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Quick! Somebody find an instance of racism! Hurry Hurry Hurry! Gotta keep that white guilt fresh in everyones minds! Cant possibly be a cultural problem with the value of education! Racism Racsim Racism! YYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Here is some more Straw you can grasp at peonyu.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
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Originally posted by: peonyu
After 40 years of Affirmitve action and equal oppurtunity its amazing that there is not ONE black or hispanic Professor out of 50 computer science departments ! Since we are all equal, the only explanation for that is racism.


The only explanation is that the most qualified are hired; ........black, white or purple.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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Apparently racism in America has yet to be tackled in areas of higher learning, this is very discouraging news.
Of course, there couldn't be any explanation other than racism, eh Jesse?
The most recent U.S. Education Department figures, for 1995, show that African-Americans received 5.3 percent of all U.S. college degrees in engineering and computer science, a figure in line with their representation in the Silicon Valley workforce. That workforce is based upon the valley's common practice of hiring on merit, without regard to race or gender.

In 1995, African-Americans accounted for only 1.2 percent of doctorates in engineering or computer science. African-Americans garnered about 12 times more medical degrees and eight times as many education doctorates as engineering doctorates. If top African-American students choose to be doctors or educators instead of engineers, why blame Silicon Valley?

"Valley Should Stand Up To Jackson's Divisive Tactics" by T.J. Rodgers, CEO of Cypress Semiconductor, March 14, 1999 (San Jose Mercury News)
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: peonyu
I meant top 50 computer departments in the nation, not just any department...

Like I said: Does MIT count?

MIT, like many schools, lumps CS with EE. However, that research center is definitely not CS.

Anyways who cares. Engineering faculty is pretty diverse already.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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575
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And in the true spirit of Jesse Jackson, they must either totally disinclude all other minorities except blacks and hispanics, such as Asians and Indian, or count them as "white men", in order to cook-up this 'glaring disparity' between whites and minorities (minority being code for "black and hispanic only").
 

maluckey

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Jan 31, 2003
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What's next? should someone start a topic title "Pro Basketball and Football racist, few white men involved!" Far fewer of one group app;ies for a position, and then only the best get the job. Not racist, just common sense, be it science, or Football, or Basketball.

These threads serve no purpose other than to sensationalize much about nothing. A quick search on just the state of Texas shows about 10 percent fewer Blacks enrolled at major Universities in 2002, and a lower graduation rate as well. That coupled with lower percentages of blacks majoring in scientific fields leads one to believe that there would be fewer and fewer blacks still in technical fields by the time it got to PHD level, using the same math assumptions and attrition rates.

Basic assumption is that if you don't major in sciences, and you don't graduate as often, that after Bachelors, Master, then PHD all cutting the ratio further at each level, it looks about right.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
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Originally posted by: peonyu
Apparently racism in America has yet to be tackled in areas of higher learning, this is very discouraging news. :disgust:
Honestly, I love that style of thinking :)

Less than 1% of the NFL is Asian American while 4% of the US is Asian American. The reason?

Racism

[Edit] Damn you Maluckey for making the same argument just before me! :|

And damn racism...for giving me this slow connection :(
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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This will all change once those "dispropotionate numbers" marticulate into thier careers later in life. Some will become professors themselves some will move into industry. I don't see the problem...it's unreasonable to expect your instructors to comprise the same ethnic/sexual makeup when there is generational gaps and the ethnic/sexual makeup of america changes daily.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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A large part of this is because males once were almost exclusively the ones who went into science. So, once they are there, they stay until they retire. As they do so, females etc are moving into positions. My wife is a female college professor, and that is because she pursued it at a time when most women did not want to have a science career. No mystery or hidden agenda. It's demographics.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
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Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: peonyu
I meant top 50 computer departments in the nation, not just any department...

Like I said: Does MIT count?

MIT, like many schools, lumps CS with EE. However, that research center is definitely not CS.

Anyways who cares. Engineering faculty is pretty diverse already.
Prof. Akinwande appears to be a full Professor according the the EECS Department faculty list.

The charge of full Professorships in Sciences and Engineering being an "Old Boys Club" isn't a new charge, I recall similar themed articles ten years ago, and many of the top schools have been working at it. You might have a hard time getting an MIT official to admit to any decisions being based on Affirmative Action - they would claim that any full professorships are granted exclusively on merit, but MIT's numbers of women/minority full Professors in Science and Engineering have undeniably been improving since at least the late '90s.

Not to make excuses for any true racism/sexism in academia, but full professorships have a long residence time. The normal rate of promotion is a relative trickle compared to the overall numbers of existing professors, who you can't usually get rid of due to tenure. A more interesting statistic would be the %s of full professor promotions in recent years that were women or minorities, rather than the % of all full professors. I think the ratio of recent promotions would be a bit more promising.

The following quote:
"As a result, women can earn their degrees without having a woman professor or even having access to a female faculty member, according to the survey. "
Seems a little alarmist as poor representation among full professors doesn't mean there aren't associate or adjunct professors available in a mentoring role. Individuals who may be on a tenure track but not quite there. Sure, it's not as encouraging as a tenured professor, but I don't think the situation is quite as grim as this article implies.

All that said, I'm sure there is still room for improvement in this area.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: naddicott
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: peonyu
I meant top 50 computer departments in the nation, not just any department...

Like I said: Does MIT count?

MIT, like many schools, lumps CS with EE. However, that research center is definitely not CS.

Anyways who cares. Engineering faculty is pretty diverse already.
Prof. Akinwande appears to be a full Professor according the the EECS Department faculty list.

The charge of full Professorships in Sciences and Engineering being an "Old Boys Club" isn't a new charge, I recall similar themed articles ten years ago, and many of the top schools have been working at it. You might have a hard time getting an MIT official to admit to any decisions being based on Affirmative Action - they would claim that any full professorships are granted exclusively on merit, but MIT's numbers of women/minority full Professors in Science and Engineering have undeniably been improving since at least the late '90s.

Not to make excuses for any true racism/sexism in academia, but full professorships have a long residence time. The normal rate of promotion is a relative trickle compared to the overall numbers of existing professors, who you can't usually get rid of due to tenure. A more interesting statistic would be the %s of full professor promotions in recent years that were women or minorities, rather than the % of all full professors. I think the ratio of recent promotions would be a bit more promising.

The following quote:
"As a result, women can earn their degrees without having a woman professor or even having access to a female faculty member, according to the survey. "
Seems a little alarmist as poor representation among full professors doesn't mean there aren't associate or adjunct professors available in a mentoring role. Individuals who may be on a tenure track but not quite there. Sure, it's not as encouraging as a tenured professor, but I don't think the situation is quite as grim as this article implies.

All that said, I'm sure there is still room for improvement in this area.

Yeah I know, read my post again :)

Actually, I can't even find him on that link!