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White House rejects Iraq 'failures'

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Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
TastesLikeChcken said:

Let's not wear blinders and pretend it's just the GOP. Both sides are playing partisan games with this war and games that are solely for their own benefit.

What "blinders" are these?. Thats all you focused on in your reply the old "Democrats and Republicans do it to" meme?. It's old news, you seem to be preaching to the choir.

It's pretty obvious many Democrats will allow themselves to be persuaded by the Gen. Petraeus presentation and thus will support the same continuation of the occupation of Iraq. The incumbency of the Congressional Democratic majority has been marked by one salient feature - the refusal to directly confront the president on any subject of substance.
Refusal? No. It's not as if the Democrats didn't try. They tried and failed.

Hillary Clinton and Carl Levin are calling for al-Maliki's ouster as a way of attacking Bush's Iraq policy. But do they understand the consequences?. But, of course, it's not just Democrats who have turned on Maliki. John Warner, told "Meet the Press" Sunday that the "partnership we formed with the Maliki government" had "failed."

The American search for a scapegoat in Iraq is a bipartisan effort, in other words, and Maliki seems to fit the bill, especially since his political support is collapsing at home. He was dealt a new blow Tuesday when clashes between Shiite militiamen, security forces and pilgrims left 26 dead in the sacred city of Karbala, forcing the evacuation of 1 million pilgrims and the cancellation of one of Shia Islam's holiest festivals. If a Shiite prime minister can't keep order in a Shiite city, what chance does he stand against his critics at home and abroad?
al Maliki needs to be gone anyway, imo. His refusal to reign in the Shi'ite militias, in particular al Sadr, at the beginning of his term spelled failure for him in the long run.

The pressure now coming from Congress to replace Maliki is also unlikely to produce positive change. Although any 55 parliamentarians may introduce a vote of no confidence, at this point it's hard to see how Maliki's Iraqi critics could overcome their own divisions to form the majority vote needed to unseat him. Nor is there an obvious, tested alternative who would have more chance of achieving Bush's benchmarks

It seems the Bush admin. would like to replace him with a secular strongman like Ayad Allawi. Allawi has hired a fancy Washington public relations firm and is among four Iraqi politicians aiming to bring down Maliki and take his place. But Allawi, an ex-Baathist, Shiite secularist and old-time CIA asset, only has 25 seats in parliament and does not have the popularity to come to power by democratic means. And if the Bush team wants to support the call for new elections its likely Al Sadr would. Who do ya think would fill that political power vacuum.
Didn't Allawi's block recently withdraw from the government along with the Accord Front?

They have two choices if they are to get rid of Maliki - they can either pick from the existing pool, if they want to make it quick, or hold new elections early. Either way, it doesn't seem Bush has had all that much influence with the Iraqi government thus far so why should it be assumed he will have any in the future?

Also, it's not "partisan" to question Bush's recent speech invoking Vietnam. It's an observation of tactic of this partcular individual. Frameing it that way is mistaken & old hat. Its one reason 70 odd % of the country isn't listening to him anymore.

The fact is that no one can really predict whether our slow phased out military departure will cause such a blood bath. Moreover, it is now obvious that the political and sectarian schisms that could lead to it will not heal themselves. As Gen. Petraeus has admitted, it might take a decade to achieve real stability in Iraq. In other words, Bush is asking the U.S. to keep troops in Iraq, possibly indefinitely, in an attempt to forestall an outcome that might never happen - precisely what he argues we should have done in Vietnam.

This is not a scenario that Congress or the American people are going to accept. Not even Bush's appeals to the War Myth. In some part of his brain, Bush he's gotta know this - which explains his other motivation for invoking Vietnam and attacking war critics as defeatists. He is planting the seeds of a resentful revisionism, a stab in the back II.

The climax of the slow-motion debate over Iraq is approaching. At some point in the near future, it will become inescapably obvious even to congressional Republicans, who hold the key to the decision to go in a new direction with this occupation. Bush will continue to proclaim that victory is within sight and accuse his critics of being defeatists.

But the War Myth cannot save him forever, because he's overused it. It will buy him a few weeks or months of breathing space, but even the talismanic power of the War Myth dissipates if people realize it has been used in a cheap, propagandistic way.
Yep. Bush is going down in flames any day now, just like Iraq. I know this for a fact because we've been told that for some years now. 😉
 
TastesLikeChicken has a certain sarcastic point when he says---Yep. Bush is going down in flames any day now, just like Iraq. I know this for a fact because we've been told that for some years now.

The point being, GWB never caught fire and did much of any good even when he had a rubber stamp congress. The point is that GWB is now on probation and we are basically going to have to endure another seventeen months of a now hobbled lame lame duck or impeach the the worthless bastard. Since the latter course does not seem likely now, I totally fail to see why you take secret delight at having a President that fights what amounts to a rear guard defense of stupidity.

Would it not be better, in the grand scheme of things for the country , to have a President engaged and confronting changing realities as he works with and not against
the US congress?

Rather than having a President whose legacy will go down in flames as a total failure on 1/20/2009 at the very latest.

Yep, 1/20/2009 will be that date certain when GWB goes down in flames as a failure. But as the Dicken's Christmas carol points out, redemption is possible. But redemption does imply changing evil ways.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
TastesLikeChicken has a certain sarcastic point when he says---Yep. Bush is going down in flames any day now, just like Iraq. I know this for a fact because we've been told that for some years now.

The point being, GWB never caught fire and did much of any good even when he had a rubber stamp congress. The point is that GWB is now on probation and we are basically going to have to endure another seventeen months of a now hobbled lame lame duck or impeach the the worthless bastard. Since the latter course does not seem likely now, I totally fail to see why you take secret delight at having a President that fights what amounts to a rear guard defense of stupidity.

Would it not be better, in the grand scheme of things for the country , to have a President engaged and confronting changing realities as he works with and not against
the US congress?

Rather than having a President whose legacy will go down in flames as a total failure on 1/20/2009 at the very latest.

Yep, 1/20/2009 will be that date certain when GWB goes down in flames as a failure. But as the Dicken's Christmas carol points out, redemption is possible. But redemption does imply changing evil ways.
I love Dickens, particularly A Christmas Carol, and his writings do so often reflect present day politics. In fact, Hsu has shown that you can buy that big turkey in the window so long as you funnel the money through paupers on the street.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I see TasteLikeChicken is playing the classic blame just the dimocrats.
I guess you could claim that if you ignore what I said previously:

Let's not wear blinders and pretend it's just the GOP. Both sides are playing partisan games with this war and games that are solely for their own benefit.
So apparently you don't see what TastesLkeChicken is doing.

Pardon me, but I interpret the raw statement you made as an implication that the GOP is lock step with the President and is playing the political game of things are wonderful against the united democrats who are playing the political game of being defeatists.

If you don't want to get mis-interpreted, don't be keyboard lazy and elaborate to define your position. Extremely vague statements are just slogans and mean nothing. But give you a fall back slogan to say I said it first when you said nothing specific.
Pardon me, but instead of trying to "interpret" my statements, which were rather UNvague, ask for clarification instead of trying to tell me what I said or making vapid accusations to cover your faux pas.

Thanks.

3rd degree burn. 😉
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I see TasteLikeChicken is playing the classic blame just the dimocrats.
I guess you could claim that if you ignore what I said previously:

Let's not wear blinders and pretend it's just the GOP. Both sides are playing partisan games with this war and games that are solely for their own benefit.
So apparently you don't see what TastesLkeChicken is doing.

Pardon me, but I interpret the raw statement you made as an implication that the GOP is lock step with the President and is playing the political game of things are wonderful against the united democrats who are playing the political game of being defeatists.

If you don't want to get mis-interpreted, don't be keyboard lazy and elaborate to define your position. Extremely vague statements are just slogans and mean nothing. But give you a fall back slogan to say I said it first when you said nothing specific.
Pardon me, but instead of trying to "interpret" my statements, which were rather UNvague, ask for clarification instead of trying to tell me what I said or making vapid accusations to cover your faux pas.

Thanks.

And your very next post your back to your partsian blame game:

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: jpeyton
We've been making steadfast progress since 2003. The kind that exists, but can't be measured. See my signature for proof.
Don't worry. We already lost in Iraq. Harry Reid said so. Which is why I don't understand why he's trying to align with Republicans now. If we've lost, as he claims, and there's been no progress, why would he need to do that? Very strange, those Congress-critters.

LL replied:

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To TastesLikeChicken,

Has it ever occurred to you that a congressional leader like Harry Reid might be placing congressional consensus above mere partisan politics? And actually be concerned what is good for the country rather than worrying about what is merely good for the democratic party. After all, the alternative is impeaching a President who seems to be an idiot and will be gone fairly soon.

If you don't like what what Harry Reid as the decider is doing , given the clusterfuck we have, what do you thing he should doing? Get off the pot, or shit, and quit being a forum troll.

We have a huge problem called Iraq, now what should we do to solve it? Playing blame games shed no light but lots of heat

I like to see the answer to that question. It seems to me that the R's are in denial about Iraq and the best they can come up with is to call the D's defeatist so they can (in THEIR heads anyway) shift the responsibility of this giant clusterfuk on them and sit back with an "I told you so" attitude, when the facts support the exact opposite. Do you even consider the loss of life and suffering being caused on a daily basis while people like you are engaged in playing th blame game?

If this "war" is winnable then quit talking down the D's and win it.... or at least show us some REAL countrywide progress for a change.
 
From the front page of the Washington Post:
Report Finds Little Progress On Iraq Goals
GAO Draft at Odds With White House

By Karen DeYoung and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, August 30, 2007; Page A01


Iraq has failed to meet all but three of 18 congressionally mandated benchmarks for political and military progress, according to a draft of a Government Accountability Office report. The document questions whether some aspects of a more positive assessment by the White House last month adequately reflected the range of views the GAO found within the administration.

The strikingly negative GAO draft, which will be delivered to Congress in final form on Tuesday, comes as the White House prepares to deliver its own new benchmark report in the second week of September, along with congressional testimony from Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, and Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker. They are expected to describe significant security improvements and offer at least some promise for political reconciliation in Iraq.

The draft provides a stark assessment of the tactical effects of the current U.S.-led counteroffensive to secure Baghdad. "While the Baghdad security plan was intended to reduce sectarian violence, U.S. agencies differ on whether such violence has been reduced," it states. While there have been fewer attacks against U.S. forces, it notes, the number of attacks against Iraqi civilians remains unchanged. It also finds that "the capabilities of Iraqi security forces have not improved."

"Overall," the report concludes, "key legislation has not been passed, violence remains high, and it is unclear whether the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion in reconstruction funds," as promised. While it makes no policy recommendations, the draft suggests that future administration assessments "would be more useful" if they backed up their judgments with more details and "provided data on broader measures of violence from all relevant U.S. agencies."


A GAO spokesman declined to comment on the report before it is released. The 69-page draft, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post, is still undergoing review at the Defense Department, which may ask that parts of it be classified or request changes in its conclusions. The GAO, the investigative arm of Congress, normally submits its draft reports to relevant agencies for comment but makes its own final judgments. The office has published more than 100 assessments of various aspects of the U.S. effort in Iraq since May 2003.

The person who provided the draft report to The Post said it was being conveyed from a government official who feared that its pessimistic conclusions would be watered down in the final version -- as some officials have said happened with security judgments in this month's National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq. Congress requested the GAO report, along with an assessment of the Iraqi security forces by an independent commission headed by retired Marine Gen. James L. Jones, to provide a basis for comparison with the administration's scorecard. The Jones report is also scheduled for delivery next week.

Asked to comment on the GAO draft, White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said, "General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker are there on the ground every day in Iraq, and it's important to wait to hear what they have to say." He disputed any suggestion that the July White House assessment did not consider all internal views, noting that it resulted from "a lengthy and far-reaching process throughout the State and Defense departments and other agencies."

Johndroe emphasized that "while we've all seen progress in some areas, especially on the security front, it's not surprising the GAO would make this assessment, given the difficult congressionally mandated measurement they had to follow."

President Bush signed legislation in May that requires him to submit by Sept. 15 an assessment of whether the government of Iraq is "achieving progress" toward the benchmarks. The interim July report determined that satisfactory progress was being made toward eight of the 18 benchmarks, most of them on the security front. It found unsatisfactory progress toward eight others and presented a mixed picture on the remaining two.

The May legislation imposed a stricter standard on the GAO, requiring an up-or-down judgment on whether each benchmark has been met. On that basis, the GAO draft says that three of the benchmarks have been met while 13 have not. Despite its strict mandate, the GAO draft concludes that two benchmarks -- the formation of governmental regions and the allocation and expenditure of $10 billion for reconstruction -- have been "partially met." Little of the allocated money, it says, has been spent.

One of eight political benchmarks -- the protection of the rights of minority political parties in the Iraqi legislature -- has been achieved, according to the draft. On the others, including legislation on constitutional reform, new oil laws and de-Baathification, it assesses failure.

"Prospects for additional progress in enacting legislative benchmarks have been complicated by the withdrawal of 15 of 37 members of the Iraqi cabinet," it says. An internal administration assessment this month, the GAO says, concluded that "this boycott ends any claim by the Shi'ite-dominated coalition to be a government of national unity." An administration official involved in Iraq policy said that he did not know what specific interagency document the GAO was citing but noted that it is an accurate reflection of the views of many officials.

Overall, the draft report, titled "Securing, Stabilizing and Rebuilding Iraq," says that the Iraqi government has met only two security benchmarks. It contradicts the Bush administration's conclusion in July that sectarian violence was decreasing as a result of the U.S. military's stepped-up operations in Baghdad this year. "The average number of daily attacks against civilians remained about the same over the last six months; 25 in February versus 26 in July," the GAO draft states.

Iraqi security forces are also assessed more severely in the GAO study than in the administration's July report. Although the White House found satisfactory progress toward the goal of deploying three Iraqi army brigades in Baghdad, the GAO disagrees, citing "performance problems" in some units. "Some army units sent to Baghdad have mixed loyalties, and some have had ties to Shiia militias making it difficult to target Shiia extremist networks," it says.

The GAO draft also says that the number of Iraqi army units capable of operating independently declined from 10 in March to six last month. The July White House report mentioned a "slight" decline in capable Iraqi units, without providing any numbers. The GAO also says, as did the White House in July, that the Iraqi government has intervened in military activities for political reasons, "resulting in some operations being based on sectarian interests." But its discussion of Iraqi security forces is often veiled, as when it states that the determination that the security forces benchmark was not met "was based largely on classified information."

The description of the Iraqi military's shortcomings contrasts with comments from many senior U.S. commanders who say that they are pleased with its progress. "Although we still have a ways to go, Iraqi security forces are making significant, tangible improvements," Army Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the No. 2 U.S. commander in Iraq, said earlier this month.

But Army Lt. Gen. James Dubik, who in June became the commander of the U.S. troops training and advising Iraqi army and police units, struck a more somber note yesterday in a news conference in Baghdad. "The problems that the military commanders and the minister of defense have here in generating the Iraqi army are very significant, and they shouldn't be taken lightly," he said.


This certainly seems to belie the happy talk coming from the Bush administration and its supporters. I found it especially interesting that the report continues to corroborate complaints of the administration cherry-picking evidence to support its Pollyanna claims, and that there are concerns the administration will water down this report's findings, just has it has in the past.

This is just one more example of why any "information" influenced by this White House cannot be assumed to be credible. The people in this administration simply don't seem to know how to tell the truth. While they are spinning self-serving fairy tales, American soldiers and thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women, and children continue to die for their lies.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don't worry. We already lost in Iraq. Harry Reid said so. ...
Reid was right. The war on Iraq is already a failure: hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis dead, over 3,700 American soldiers dead, uncounted American and ally contractors dead, much of the country's infrastructure destroyed, and upwards of a trillion dollars pissed away ... all for a pack of lies. That is failure, no matter how the Bush faithful shift the goal posts and try to redefine success. The only open question is how big and how long the failure will be before life in Iraq returns to being no more miserable than it was before we trashed the place.

 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don't worry. We already lost in Iraq. Harry Reid said so. ...
Reid was right. The war on Iraq is already a failure: hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis dead, over 3,700 American soldiers dead, uncounted American and ally contractors dead, much of the country's infrastructure destroyed, and upwards of a trillion dollars pissed away ... all for a pack of lies. That is failure, no matter how the Bush faithful shift the goal posts and try to redefine success. The only open question is how big and how long the failure will be before life in Iraq returns to being no more miserable than it was before we trashed the place.

Well said.:thumbsup:
 
TastesLikeChicken said:

Refusal? No. It's not as if the Democrats didn't try. They tried and failed.

Yes, they have failed and failed miserably. They have no teeth. They have disapointed the constituency that voted them in. This is something you keep bleating to death ad nausium. I already addressed this in my post above and many other threads on the subject. Again, more preaching to the chior.

al Maliki needs to be gone anyway, imo. His refusal to reign in the Shi'ite militias, in particular al Sadr, at the beginning of his term spelled failure for him in the long run.
Didn't Allawi's block recently withdraw from the government along with the Accord Front?

They have two choices if they are to get rid of Maliki - they can either pick from the existing pool, if they want to make it quick, or hold new elections early. Either way, it doesn't seem Bush has had all that much influence with the Iraqi government thus far so why should it be assumed he will have any in the future?

What is your analysis of any substance?. Do you have any?. Can we insist on new elections without their parliments majority of votes to do this? within their constitution. Does the US political establishment consider Iraq a 'US posession.' Will the Iraqi people see this as complete American imperialism? to call for the ouster of the head of a sovereign government?.

If these elections were to take place, without any interference from any outside governments, including the United States and Iran, based on the climate of popularity, the cleric Moktada al-Sadr would win the election overwhelmingly.

And if he did win the election, that would mean the United States would have to leave the country, abandon it's Green Zone and that the Sadr Iraqi government would then begin to work closely with the government of Iran.

"IF" there were democratic elections.

Iraqis feel increasingly insecure and view us as an occupation force that has failed to produce normalcy after four years and is increasingly unlikely to do so as we continue to arm each warring side.

Washington?s insistence that the Iraqis correct the three gravest mistakes we made, de-Baathification, the dismantling of the Iraqi Army and the creation of a loose federalist system of government, places us at cross purposes with the government we have committed to support.

Yep. Bush is going down in flames any day now, just like Iraq. I know this for a fact because we've been told that for some years now

It just goes to show, misguided children have no business playing with fire. Useually they end up getting burned.





 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don't worry. We already lost in Iraq. Harry Reid said so. ...
Reid was right. The war on Iraq is already a failure: hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis dead,
Hundreds of thousands? Exaggeration doesn't help you make your case. You can say tens of thousands and still wave that number around. That count still has the numerical impact you're using them for.

And how many of those are actually innocent? A good majority of them, very likely, and that's a tragedy, because our military does not target civilians, unlike AQ or those involved in the sectarian violence. However, shoot an insurgent, his gun gets taken, and suddenly becomes "innocent." So who knows how accurate the "innocent" claim really is as well?

over 3,700 American soldiers dead, uncounted American and ally contractors dead, much of the country's infrastructure destroyed, and upwards of a trillion dollars pissed away ... all for a pack of lies. That is failure, no matter how the Bush faithful shift the goal posts and try to redefine success. The only open question is how big and how long the failure will be before life in Iraq returns to being no more miserable than it was before we trashed the place.
Right. It was all about the WMDs and Bush never, ever said going into Iraq was about any other reason.

When speaking of shifting goalposts it would help if those making that claim didn't so blatantly ignore the goalposts Bush erected in the first place. But they wave their hands furiously and exclaim "It was all about the WMDs!" when, in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq. Then they exclaim "Well those were unimportant and Bush didn't stress those!", as if they have been assigned the task of identifying what the order of importance was in the list of reasons given for invading Iraq. But, hey, the anti-war crowd has a tendency for exaggeration and revisionist history when it comes to the Iraq invasion. If Bush "lied" then what's a little lie, or two, or a hunfdred to counter the evil BusHitlerMcHalliburton?
 
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
TastesLikeChicken said:

Refusal? No. It's not as if the Democrats didn't try. They tried and failed.

Yes, they have failed and failed miserably. They have no teeth. They have disapointed the constituency that voted them in. This is something you keep bleating to death ad nausium. I already addressed this in my post above and many other threads on the subject. Again, more preaching to the chior.
It seems you have some experience in here. You should know that bleating and beating a dead horse is an art form in P&N. Just ask the people who incessantly bleat about the deaths of innocents and soldiers in Iraq, and deploy the figures (often exaggerating the numbers for impact) whenever they feel the need to form an appearance of moral superiority.

al Maliki needs to be gone anyway, imo. His refusal to reign in the Shi'ite militias, in particular al Sadr, at the beginning of his term spelled failure for him in the long run.
Didn't Allawi's block recently withdraw from the government along with the Accord Front?

They have two choices if they are to get rid of Maliki - they can either pick from the existing pool, if they want to make it quick, or hold new elections early. Either way, it doesn't seem Bush has had all that much influence with the Iraqi government thus far so why should it be assumed he will have any in the future?

What is your analysis of any substance?. Do you have any?. Can we insist on new elections without their parliments majority of votes to do this? within their constitution. Does the US political establishment consider Iraq a 'US posession.' Will the Iraqi people see this as complete American imperialism? to call for the ouster of the head of a sovereign government?.

If these elections were to take place, without any interference from any outside governments, including the United States and Iran, based on the climate of popularity, the cleric Moktada al-Sadr would win the election overwhelmingly.

And if he did win the election, that would mean the United States would have to leave the country, abandon it's Green Zone and that the Sadr Iraqi government would then begin to work closely with the government of Iran.

"IF" there were democratic elections.

Iraqis feel increasingly insecure and view us as an occupation force that has failed to produce normalcy after four years and is increasingly unlikely to do so as we continue to arm each warring side.

Washington?s insistence that the Iraqis correct the three gravest mistakes we made, de-Baathification, the dismantling of the Iraqi Army and the creation of a loose federalist system of government, places us at cross purposes with the government we have committed to support.
Analysis of substance? I don't see where you're really asking for one. What you seem to want is prognostications or speculative remarks. You seem to have made a speculative prognostication yourself about Sadr. If he were truly as popular as you imply it seems his Sadrist block in Parliament would be significantly larger. But it's not because his support is regional, not national. It doesn't seem that many Iraqis care much for his little temper tantrums either, withdrawing his group and stomping his feet whenever he doesn't get his way in Parliament. btw, while the backers of Sadr are all Shi'ites, it doesn't mean all Shi'ites are backers of Sadr. Many despise him because of his ties to Iran. Iran is still a sore point among many Iraqis, Shi'ite and Sunni alike. So "if" there were democratic elections, I'm not sure where all these magic votes would come from to place Sadr in power. It's seems like you're being speculative about Sadr in the same way that the anti-war crowd predicted that Iraqis would elect a Theocracy. Twas a nice attempt at fear-mongering and erecting the spectre of Iran (cue ominous music) but it just didn't pan out.

Yep. Bush is going down in flames any day now, just like Iraq. I know this for a fact because we've been told that for some years now

It just goes to show, misguided children have no business playing with fire. Useually they end up getting burned.
Bill Clinon knew that well. It's probably why he rarely actually lit his cigars.
 
From TLC-

in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq.

I know, it's probably too much to ask that you enumerate those reasons...

Now that you brought it up, failure to substantiate might be seen as obfuscational, by anybody with half a brain, anyway...

Have at it, please- don't leave anything out, OK? What "many reasons" are you talking about?
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
...when, in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq.

TLC - do you think we'd have gone into Iraq if we knew there were no WMD? IOW - if WMD weren't part of the equation, would we have gone to war?

What about any of your other reasons? Apply them to the same question.


Edit: read my sig
 
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
It just goes to show, misguided children have no business playing with fire. Useually they end up getting burned.

The irony here is scathing. :laugh:

 
From TLC-

in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq.


At this point, it would be extremely difficult to say even the sum aggregate of the debatable reasons for going into Iraq were worth a tiny tiny fractions of the costs. Its just a bad deal all around and reminds me of the story of the man who had a terrible business plan and became a millionaire with it. The punch line comes when its revealed that the man was a billionaire before he got his brainfart.

The point is that we were lied to going into this war by a bunch of morally bankrupt overoptimists. And now we tolerate those same jerks demanding to still call the shots when we should be tossing them the hell out of government. Why do we think the idiots who broke it can fix it when their track record is just the opposite?
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don't worry. We already lost in Iraq. Harry Reid said so. ...
Reid was right. The war on Iraq is already a failure: hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis dead,
Hundreds of thousands? Exaggeration doesn't help you make your case. You can say tens of thousands and still wave that number around. That count still has the numerical impact you're using them for.

And how many of those are actually innocent? A good majority of them, very likely, and that's a tragedy, because our military does not target civilians, unlike AQ or those involved in the sectarian violence. However, shoot an insurgent, his gun gets taken, and suddenly becomes "innocent." So who knows how accurate the "innocent" claim really is as well?

over 3,700 American soldiers dead, uncounted American and ally contractors dead, much of the country's infrastructure destroyed, and upwards of a trillion dollars pissed away ... all for a pack of lies. That is failure, no matter how the Bush faithful shift the goal posts and try to redefine success. The only open question is how big and how long the failure will be before life in Iraq returns to being no more miserable than it was before we trashed the place.
Right. It was all about the WMDs and Bush never, ever said going into Iraq was about any other reason.

When speaking of shifting goalposts it would help if those making that claim didn't so blatantly ignore the goalposts Bush erected in the first place. But they wave their hands furiously and exclaim "It was all about the WMDs!" when, in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq. Then they exclaim "Well those were unimportant and Bush didn't stress those!", as if they have been assigned the task of identifying what the order of importance was in the list of reasons given for invading Iraq. But, hey, the anti-war crowd has a tendency for exaggeration and revisionist history when it comes to the Iraq invasion. If Bush "lied" then what's a little lie, or two, or a hunfdred to counter the evil BusHitlerMcHalliburton?
Typical TLC duhversion. Any chance you'll address my points, or are misdirection and straw men the best you can do? Oh wait, never mind. I already know the answer to that one.
 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From TLC-

in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq.

I know, it's probably too much to ask that you enumerate those reasons...

Now that you brought it up, failure to substantiate might be seen as obfuscational, by anybody with half a brain, anyway...

Have at it, please- don't leave anything out, OK? What "many reasons" are you talking about?
If you want to know a few of them:

  • Saddam's support of terrorist groups

    Liberation of Iraqi people

    Failre to comply with UN resolutions (And, unspoken but implied, the unwillingness of the UN to do anything about that)

    Saddam's human right violations

    Establishing Democracy in the ME

    Saddam's desire to revive his nuclear weapons program

    Regime change
There are plenty of others. iirc, a woman did her college thesis and found there were 23 rationales given prior to the invasion, which was eventually upped to 27.

But I suspect you know all the rationales already and are making me list them purely for your personal amusement, which I really don't appreciate. If you truly don't know the rationales given, other than the WMD one you narrowly focus on to the ommission of all others, you might want to do some research because otherwise you'd be arguing from a position of ignorance. If that's the case, I'll get you started:

www.google.com

Have at it.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don't worry. We already lost in Iraq. Harry Reid said so. ...
Reid was right. The war on Iraq is already a failure: hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis dead,
Hundreds of thousands? Exaggeration doesn't help you make your case. You can say tens of thousands and still wave that number around. That count still has the numerical impact you're using them for.

And how many of those are actually innocent? A good majority of them, very likely, and that's a tragedy, because our military does not target civilians, unlike AQ or those involved in the sectarian violence. However, shoot an insurgent, his gun gets taken, and suddenly becomes "innocent." So who knows how accurate the "innocent" claim really is as well?

over 3,700 American soldiers dead, uncounted American and ally contractors dead, much of the country's infrastructure destroyed, and upwards of a trillion dollars pissed away ... all for a pack of lies. That is failure, no matter how the Bush faithful shift the goal posts and try to redefine success. The only open question is how big and how long the failure will be before life in Iraq returns to being no more miserable than it was before we trashed the place.
Right. It was all about the WMDs and Bush never, ever said going into Iraq was about any other reason.

When speaking of shifting goalposts it would help if those making that claim didn't so blatantly ignore the goalposts Bush erected in the first place. But they wave their hands furiously and exclaim "It was all about the WMDs!" when, in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq. Then they exclaim "Well those were unimportant and Bush didn't stress those!", as if they have been assigned the task of identifying what the order of importance was in the list of reasons given for invading Iraq. But, hey, the anti-war crowd has a tendency for exaggeration and revisionist history when it comes to the Iraq invasion. If Bush "lied" then what's a little lie, or two, or a hunfdred to counter the evil BusHitlerMcHalliburton?
Typical TLC duhversion. Any chance you'll address my points, or are misdirection and straw men the best you can do? Oh wait, never mind. I already know the answer to that one.
Typical Bowfinger reply. Someone addresses his points and he waves his hands and claims otherwise, as if Bowfinger merely stating so automatically makes it true.

If you have proof that Bush used WMDs as his sole and single rationale for going into Iraq, as you seem to imply, please feel free to present it. Shold be easy to do if what you seem to claim is true.
 
Its somewhat hilarious about the woman who did that college thesis and researched the 23 or 27 reasons---As I recall, most people agree all 27 reasons cited by GWB&co. are either totally bogus or a best highly dubious. No WMD is not the only lie that was told. How about the Uranium from Niger or the Aluminum tubes that could be only used for Uranium enrichment? Or the ordinary panel truck that was just a panel truck. Need we go down the entire list of lies?
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From TLC-

in truth, there were many reasons given for going into Iraq.

I know, it's probably too much to ask that you enumerate those reasons...

Now that you brought it up, failure to substantiate might be seen as obfuscational, by anybody with half a brain, anyway...

Have at it, please- don't leave anything out, OK? What "many reasons" are you talking about?
If you want to know a few of them:

  • Saddam's support of terrorist groups
    Was this claim ever supported?

    Liberation of Iraqi people
    Horseshit. This became the rallying cry AFTER the debacle started.

    Failre to comply with UN resolutions (And, unspoken but implied, the unwillingness of the UN to do anything about that)
    Horseshit once again. Have you ever heard of Hans Blix? I'm guessing not.

    Saddam's human right violations
    You mean those horrific things that he did with US chemical weapons supplied under the Reagan administration and ignored by the Bush Sr. administration? Why has the Bush administration almost completely ignored Darfur then?


    Establishing Democracy in the ME
    Spreading democracy via violence. That's rich. Also a complete lie on your part. That was another of those after the fact rationales.


    Saddam's desire to revive his nuclear weapons program
    Wouldn't you want to revive your weapons program after the leader of the free world starts threatening you with invasion? Nonetheless, he didn't act on that desire. See Hans Blix once again.


    Regime change

This one is accurate...but it wasn't given as a justification for the invasion. It was just the underlying reason that drove the Bush administration.


There are plenty of others. iirc, a woman did her college thesis and found there were 23 rationales given prior to the invasion, which was eventually upped to 27.

Wow...some random woman wrote a paper? And you have no link to it so that her resources can be validated or debunked? Huh, go figure.
:roll:

But I suspect you know all the rationales already and are making me list them purely for your personal amusement, which I really don't appreciate. If you truly don't know the rationales given, other than the WMD one you narrowly focus on to the ommission of all others, you might want to do some research because otherwise you'd be arguing from a position of ignorance. If that's the case, I'll get you started:

www.google.com

Have at it.

 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its somewhat hilarious about the woman who did that college thesis and researched the 23 or 27 reasons---As I recall, most people agree all 27 reasons cited by GWB&co. are either totally bogus or a best highly dubious. No WMD is not the only lie that was told. How about the Uranium from Niger or the Aluminum tubes that could be only used for Uranium enrichment? Or the ordinary panel truck that was just a panel truck. Need we go down the entire list of lies?
Ahh, the uranium from Niger is a good point. To make it into a "lie" all the anti-war crowd had to do was mischaracterize what Bush actually said about it.

Besides that, in order for any of the rationales to actually be "lies" you would have to prove that Bush knew when he was making the claims that they were untrue. Bush making a claim based on intel provided to him that eventually turned out to be wrong does not make them lies. It merely means that the CIA and other intelligence agencies were idiots and fed him bad information. But if you can prove Bush made those claims with some malice aforethought, please do. I've yet to see anyone substantitate the claims of "Bush lied" but you could be the first.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If you have proof that Bush used WMDs as his sole and single rationale for going into Iraq, as you seem to imply, please feel free to present it. Shold be easy to do if what you seem to claim is true.

Neocon bastards still trying to make justifications for why the sham of a war took place.

Remind us....

A big ole WMD lie.....

Colon Powell after his UN speach leading to war - "I wonder how the world will feel when we drop 500,000 troops into Iraq, march from end of the country to the other, and find absolutely nothing".

Not that any of the chickenhawk neocon bastards care....they got what they want, although the results have sucked ass.....unless you're in the crowd that wanted higher oil prices from a destabilized Middle East.

*bah*
Any proof that Colin Powell actually said that after his UN speech, or is this yet another fabrication by the anti-war contingent?
 
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Wow...some random woman wrote a paper? And you have no link to it so that her resources can be validated or debunked? Huh, go figure.[/b] :roll:
I noticed you provided a bunch of answers with absolutely zero validation on your part, yet you demand it of others?

Here's a link to the paper:

http://www.pol.uiuc.edu/news/largio.htm

btw, notice that this paper puts the kabosh on many of your erroneous claims above. Huh, go figure. :roll:
 
TastesLikeChicken

You've got to be kidding!

"Saddam's support of terrorist groups"

This included a great deal of known BS from the Administration, and they knew it was BS. Sadaam did pay survivors of some suicide bombers, but we pretty much made up the rest to generate a higher level of fear at home. The 84 million uses of Iraq and 9-11 in the same sentence capitalized on that.

"Liberation of Iraqi people"

Since when is our country supposed to use military force to remove bad/repressive governments in other nations? Is this actually our foreign policy? When do we invade Cuba, China, N. Korea, Venezuela, etc.? Do you in your wildest dreams think that the American people would support a war based on liberating the peoples of any of these countries?

"Failre to comply with UN resolutions (And, unspoken but implied, the unwillingness of the UN to do anything about that) "

I seem to forget. Which is it? Did the U.N. demand that we use military force in their name, or is it that we launch invasions to enforce all U.N. resolutions? "Failure to comply" was the thinnest veneer for representing the invasion as lawful and appropriate.

"Saddam's human right violations"

The laundry list of countries that regularly commit human rights violations is long and well known. The idea that we might invade countries that did not comply with our definition of human rights is ludicrous on its face.

"Establishing Democracy in the ME"

On exactly what moral/legal basis do you think that it should be U.S. policy to run around the world and establish a governmental type of our choice in sovereign nations anyway? Is "and the United States created a world in its own image" the new, international re-make of Manifest Destiny"?

"Saddam's desire to revive his nuclear weapons program"

He could "desire" all he wanted, but without the ability to fulfill his desire, it was a non-issue. There were more reasons to believe that he could not achieve his desire than than there were to believe he could when you look at all of the information available. In addition, just when the U.N. got the "holy grail" of unfettered access in Iraq, GWB acted like he didn't want answers to become known by pulling the inspectors and rushing to war.

"Regime change"

Same crap, different name. Does the U.S. really want to suggest to the rest of the world "if we don't like your government, we will destroy it"? Shades of "you must comply; you will be assimilated".

So, chewing on your reasons for war, I can't even say "well, it tastes like chicken", because it really tastes like crap. But this is of course the whole Bush strategy all along. He feeds us buckets of BS and tells us to suck it down, explaining that it really is far better than it looks.

I actually like the "eat the BS, it tastes like chicken" analogy, it would be an apt historical nickname for Bush's legacy.

 
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