White House presses Russia to expel Snowden; sharp words for China

[Genx87]

It's possible that the USA is trying to protect Snowden. If he falls into the hands of terrorists, or unfriendly countries, there is a very good chance he will be tortured for his information and killed. At least in the USA he would be safe.

lmfao I am sure that is what they are trying to do. Just like all those Japanese were locked up in concentration camps for their own "safety".

 

[zanejohnson]

snowden is highly intelligent, he planned all of this, he's no Assange, and he's no Dorner....

he's the best of both.

they won't catch him, he'll release things that anyone who has any doubts on how corrupt our "system" is will not anymore.. or they'll stick there heads deeper in the sand... and i call it "system" because that's what it is... it's not a democracy, or even a a legitimate government, it is a modern day miitary/slave/industrial "system." if this was ancient egypt, we would all be the whip crackers here in america in our materialistic, shallow, lives... and the rest of the world besides the couple places willing to take this man... are the men working to the bone building the pyramid....

and that's not morally right. that's why snowden did this.

 

[Fern]

I think we're handling this badly.

I wish people would stop saying "China" instead of "Hong Kong". IMO, it makes them appear horribly biased/agenda driven. Hong Kong has it's own Constitution and a well respected judiciary. From what I've read HK doesn't care for China butting in to their business, and China stays out of it.

Also from what I've read, these types of problems extraditing Snowden from HK were expected. If successful, it was stated that it would take a long time if Snowden fully fought it through the HK court system, and they were saying not months, but years before he was actually extradited.

IMO, we need to lay off trying to bully HK. We just got caught spying on the entire world - and I'm referring here to spying on regular citizens (ethically if not legally violating their right to privacy) - and going into full 'bully mode' makes us look even worse.

Russia? We don't even have an extradition treaty with Russia. We didn't want one and I think that's the right call. Trying to bully Putin just reveals our impotence. Probably gives him a good giggle too. We need to drop the 'bully crap' with them, it makes us look stupid.

I also think there are many out there who, based on current evidence, are getting downright hysterical in their claims that Snowden is some kind of major spy, a traitor about to give up all kinds of damaging info on the US. Some are borderline apocalyptic in their predictions etc. How about chilling on that crap? Even it was true we look absolutely desperate etc. And maybe we shouldn't be alienating Snowden so much. It validates his fear of the US govt, and I think, makes him more sympathetic to people.

And our intelligence service looks not only malevolent and stupid, but utterly incompetent. One low level contractor who doesn't even work for the US govt bringing down our multi billion $ intel infrastructure?

Badly played IMHO.

Fern

 

[Nebor]

I hope Snowden and Assange meet up somewhere. In a building with a gas leak. 😉

 

[zanejohnson]

I hope Snowden and Assange meet up somewhere. In a building with a gas leak. 😉

i only have one question for you.. so you think this domestic spying is a good thing? and domestic drone use a good thing?

because this is the only way you would have found out about it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I hope Snowden and Assange meet up somewhere. In a building with a gas leak. 😉

Im sure there are plans for German gas ovens from WW2 still around.

 

[Pulsar]

People are talking about blaming Obama for the US government's reaction, but I would be surprised if a single developed country wouldn't seriously get their knickers in a twist if one of their employees pulled a stunt like this.

For example, the UK government is so stupid and uptight that twice in ten years they tried to use the "this far-off tin-pot country's WMDs are a threat to us" line. It was divisive and not particularly plausible the first time; the second time it was just laughable.

You're right. It's really the government's reaction that's a problem here. Can you imagine what a DIFFERENT conversation we'd be having if they had been intelligent about this and put the program's biggest detractor in a position to understand the checks and balances on the system? Could you imagine how different this would have been if Obama had gone on national TV and said:

"My fellow Americans,

Recently, an American who believed he was doing his civic duty made you aware of programs that have were classified and kept secret from the American public. These powers were given to the United States Government under act XXXX of XXXXX. These powers are under oversight from the XXXXX and XXXXX, and were enacted in the year of XXXXXX.

We will not be prosecuting Edward Snowden for his actions. We understand that Americans are incredibly concerned over the amount of information that the government has about them. This is not a new concern, and it's one that I share with you.

To that end, we will be bringing these laws, and these programs under intense scrutiny. More specifically, we will be asking Mr. Snowden to aid us in this endeavor. It is the job of the Government of the United States to provide for the safety of its citizens, while still remaining beholden to those citizens."

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So you've done it before? Tell me how it works.


Julian Assange is a rapist...and he gets to chill in an embassy in London. So, I guess Snowden is aligning himself with criminals and countries who have rocky relationships with the US.



How does Bradley Manning get labeled a traitor in this forum but Snowden is a hero?

Rapist? So is Obama.

 

[MiniDoom]

You're right...either I listen to what the Government is telling me or I praise a rapist, his website, and his Globe-trotting spy friends. Oh wait, Bradley Manning didn't make it. 😉

Please stop deflecting and clarify your original post on why you believe Snowden is a spy and committed espionage without speculating on what he might have done.

 

[IGBT]

your obama is a international laughing stock. He has no sway or influence and snowden knows it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

your obama is a international laughing stock. He has no sway or influence and snowden knows it.

Maybe, but Assange got him pissed off and suddenly "he's a rapist", and Obamabots find that good enough not even questioning such a remarkable coincidence. Don't underestimate Obamas power to make things happen.

 

[JEDIYoda]

And how are you so sure he isn't exchanging information in order to get help fleeing from the US Government? The guy slipped out of Hong Kong undetected......you think he has normal citizens helping with this?

At present what matters is what we do know and what we do know is that Snowden gave his information to the American public...

You can play what if`s all day long...still doesn`t change anything....

 

[werepossum]

So you've done it before? Tell me how it works.


Julian Assange is a rapist...and he gets to chill in an embassy in London. So, I guess Snowden is aligning himself with criminals and countries who have rocky relationships with the US.



How does Bradley Manning get labeled a traitor in this forum but Snowden is a hero?

I wouldn't call Snowden a hero by any stretch of the imagination, but here's a man who sacrificed his safety and life to bring something to the American public's attention that he honestly thought needed to be brought up - our government's illegal activities. He seems to be taking great pains not to disseminate information which truly damages the nation. I honestly prefer the actions of his fellow NSAers who quit their jobs and asked for an investigation, but given that they all got armed FBI raids, trumped up charges, and almost zero publicity, I can certainly see why someone would go another way.

Manning on the other hand released everything he could get his squishy little hands as part of a tantrum that he did not fit in, with no concern ofr the people who would be imprisoned or die due to his revelations; he came to light only because he is as stupid as he is evil. I would not say he is the bottom of the barrel; he doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence with barrels. There is literally no comparison.

I think we're handling this badly.

I wish people would stop saying "China" instead of "Hong Kong". IMO, it makes them appear horribly biased/agenda driven. Hong Kong has it's own Constitution and a well respected judiciary. From what I've read HK doesn't care for China butting in to their business, and China stays out of it.

Also from what I've read, these types of problems extraditing Snowden from HK were expected. If successful, it was stated that it would take a long time if Snowden fully fought it through the HK court system, and they were saying not months, but years before he was actually extradited.

IMO, we need to lay off trying to bully HK. We just got caught spying on the entire world - and I'm referring here to spying on regular citizens (ethically if not legally violating their right to privacy) - and going into full 'bully mode' makes us look even worse.

Russia? We don't even have an extradition treaty with Russia. We didn't want one and I think that's the right call. Trying to bully Putin just reveals our impotence. Probably gives him a good giggle too. We need to drop the 'bully crap' with them, it makes us look stupid.

I also think there are many out there who, based on current evidence, are getting downright hysterical in their claims that Snowden is some kind of major spy, a traitor about to give up all kinds of damaging info on the US. Some are borderline apocalyptic in their predictions etc. How about chilling on that crap? Even it was true we look absolutely desperate etc. And maybe we shouldn't be alienating Snowden so much. It validates his fear of the US govt, and I think, makes him more sympathetic to people.

And our intelligence service looks not only malevolent and stupid, but utterly incompetent. One low level contractor who doesn't even work for the US govt bringing down our multi billion $ intel infrastructure?

Badly played IMHO.

Fern

Let us coin a new phrase: Shit in one hand and threaten Russia with the other and see which one he makes you hit yourself with.

You're exactly right about our intelligence services. Luckily for them, spying on the American people is a lot easier than spying on the Russians or Red Chinese.

You're right. It's really the government's reaction that's a problem here. Can you imagine what a DIFFERENT conversation we'd be having if they had been intelligent about this and put the program's biggest detractor in a position to understand the checks and balances on the system? Could you imagine how different this would have been if Obama had gone on national TV and said:

"My fellow Americans,

Recently, an American who believed he was doing his civic duty made you aware of programs that have were classified and kept secret from the American public. These powers were given to the United States Government under act XXXX of XXXXX. These powers are under oversight from the XXXXX and XXXXX, and were enacted in the year of XXXXXX.

We will not be prosecuting Edward Snowden for his actions. We understand that Americans are incredibly concerned over the amount of information that the government has about them. This is not a new concern, and it's one that I share with you.

To that end, we will be bringing these laws, and these programs under intense scrutiny. More specifically, we will be asking Mr. Snowden to aid us in this endeavor. It is the job of the Government of the United States to provide for the safety of its citizens, while still remaining beholden to those citizens."

That would be bloody brilliant.

 

[Nebor]

That would be bloody brilliant.

No, that would encourage more dorks with a hyper-inflated sense of self-importance to jeopardize our national security.

 

[Nebor]

i only have one question for you.. so you think this domestic spying is a good thing? and domestic drone use a good thing?

because this is the only way you would have found out about it.

Yes, and yes. And I would rather no one have known about any of it. It's efficacy is damaged by public knowledge.

You realize that terror networks had basically managed to blind us with a communications blackout before this, right? Once they realized we could capture internet traffic, they stopped sending emails. Instead they kept a gmail inbox with draft emails and passed the account information around on scraps of paper. That made our massive technological advantage basically worthless. We were reduced to humint infiltration of terror networks. Which is difficult, and arduous, and unreliable. It's what put us on our heels and had us guessing at shadows before 9/11.

But with the cooperation of all the major ISPs and search companies, we conquered that challenge and have made amazing progress in destroying major terror networks around the world over the past 5 years. And now what? All of it down the toilet so that you can have affirmed what you likely already suspected if you weren't a dimwit: that the government reads your email. So what? If you're not a god damn terrorist it doesn't matter.

Now look where you stand: The president has told you he's not going to change the programs, your gut tells you that's the truth. Nothing will change about how we gather intelligence. But the enemy is now aware of our tactics. We've gained nothing and lost substantially.

 

[zanejohnson]

Yes, and yes. And I would rather no one have known about any of it. It's efficacy is damaged by public knowledge.

You realize that terror networks had basically managed to blind us with a communications blackout before this, right? Once they realized we could capture internet traffic, they stopped sending emails. Instead they kept a gmail inbox with draft emails and passed the account information around on scraps of paper. That made our massive technological advantage basically worthless. We were reduced to humint infiltration of terror networks. Which is difficult, and arduous, and unreliable. It's what put us on our heels and had us guessing at shadows before 9/11.

But with the cooperation of all the major ISPs and search companies, we conquered that challenge and have made amazing progress in destroying major terror networks around the world over the past 5 years. And now what? All of it down the toilet so that you can have affirmed what you likely already suspected if you weren't a dimwit: that the government reads your email. So what? If you're not a god damn terrorist it doesn't matter.

Now look where you stand: The president has told you he's not going to change the programs, your gut tells you that's the truth. Nothing will change about how we gather intelligence. But the enemy is now aware of our tactics. We've gained nothing and lost substantially.

you wanna know where i stand? i stand behind, intelligence, and freedom.

your the type of person who argues about and agrees piracy should be illegal. i am the type of person who thinks, if i can pirate your shit, you need to get smarter... which will in turn, make me smarter, we all evolve, see how intelligent that is.

now rethink your entire existence and quit holding yourself, and my species, back, with your ignorance.

we need to get smarter and learn how not to get attacked by terrorists, not sacrifice our own independence and freedom, mentally, and physically... that's backwards motion.

 

[Nebor]

you wanna know where i stand? i stand behind, intelligence, and freedom.

your the type of person who argues about and agrees piracy should be illegal. i am the type of person who thinks, if i can pirate your shit, you need to get smarter... which will in turn, make me smarter, we all evolve, see how intelligent that is.

now rethink your entire existence and quit holding yourself, and my species, back, with your ignorance.

we need to get smarter and learn how not to get attacked by terrorists, not sacrifice our own independence and freedom, mentally, and physically... that's backwards motion.

Sorry, I'm a brute. I stop thinking at the point where violence will solve my problem. It's the path of least resistance, intellectually speaking. Steal my property? I'll kill you. Snowden steals secrets and still has more to reveal? Fucking kill him.

I'm more of the bent of the FBI agents that throw Anon in jail that the cerebral anons themselves.

Most problems can be solved by violence if you're willing to stomach it. Of course that sort of thing is enabled by high thinkers who gives us things like nuclear weapons, laser guided bombs, smart viruses, etc. Essentially you have your place and I have mine.

 

[zanejohnson]

Sorry, I'm a brute. I stop thinking at the point where violence will solve my problem. It's the path of least resistance, intellectually speaking. Steal my property? I'll kill you. Snowden steals secrets and still has more to reveal? Fucking kill him.

I'm more of the bent of the FBI agents that throw Anon in jail that the cerebral anons themselves.

Most problems can be solved by violence if you're willing to stomach it. Of course that sort of thing is enabled by high thinkers who gives us things like nuclear weapons, laser guided bombs, smart viruses, etc. Essentially you have your place and I have mine.

and you know, i totally respect that, and your obvious intellect, and i would imagine a mix of people like me and people like you probably statistically materializes the best possible outcome... for the "whole."

cheers

 

[mikeymikec]

Name one with a leader dumb enough to say what is in the quote in post #9 and then get back to us.

One of the reasons why this is big news is because of how transparent this administration was supposed to be.

Dumb enough? It helped him get elected didn't it? If you want a list of election promises made by politicians in the last century, it might take a while to compile that list...

 

[mikeymikec]

No, that would encourage more dorks with a hyper-inflated sense of self-importance to jeopardize our national security.

From this statement I infer:

1 - In your opinion, whatever the US government does in the name of "national security" is fine with you.

2 - In your opinion, anyone who whistle-blows on the US government is a "dork with a hyper-inflated sense of self-importance".

Am I correct?

Yes, and yes. And I would rather no one have known about any of it. It's efficacy is damaged by public knowledge.

You realize that terror networks had basically managed to blind us with a communications blackout before this, right? Once they realized we could capture internet traffic, they stopped sending emails. Instead they kept a gmail inbox with draft emails and passed the account information around on scraps of paper. That made our massive technological advantage basically worthless. We were reduced to humint infiltration of terror networks. Which is difficult, and arduous, and unreliable. It's what put us on our heels and had us guessing at shadows before 9/11.

But with the cooperation of all the major ISPs and search companies, we conquered that challenge and have made amazing progress in destroying major terror networks around the world over the past 5 years. And now what? All of it down the toilet so that you can have affirmed what you likely already suspected if you weren't a dimwit: that the government reads your email. So what? If you're not a god damn terrorist it doesn't matter.

Now look where you stand: The president has told you he's not going to change the programs, your gut tells you that's the truth. Nothing will change about how we gather intelligence. But the enemy is now aware of our tactics. We've gained nothing and lost substantially.

One enormous [citation needed] here. Also, could you supply your e-mail username and password so we can read your e-mail please? It's for your safety and security.

I also find it amusing how you use the word "co-operation", because I saw it as "give us this information or we will fuck you up". Technically someone who submits to blackmail is co-operating with the blackmailer, but I don't think that is the impression people generally get if the word "co-operate" is used. Co-operation suggests that two people are willingly operating together in equal participation to achieve something.

What are your opinions on government accountability, who exactly is accountable to whom when "secrecy and security" trumps all other priorities, and the expression "power corrupts"?

 

[PokerGuy]

It's possible that the USA is trying to protect Snowden. If he falls into the hands of terrorists, or unfriendly countries, there is a very good chance he will be tortured for his information and killed. At least in the USA he would be safe.

Oh but of course, he'll be "safe" here kind of like Bradley Manning is "safe". I'm guessing he'll take his chances with anyone else out there rather than his government that is intent on silencing him at any cost.

 

[irishScott]

Maybe, but Assange got him pissed off and suddenly "he's a rapist", and Obamabots find that good enough not even questioning such a remarkable coincidence. Don't underestimate Obamas power to make things happen by accident.

Fixed. If Obama's proven one thing recently, he's not all that good at intentionally making things happen.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

i only have one question for you.. so you think this domestic spying is a good thing? and domestic drone use a good thing?

because this is the only way you would have found out about it.

Just like any real news (including world news): Out of sight, out of mind for 95% of the US.

 

[irishScott]

Yes, and yes. And I would rather no one have known about any of it. It's efficacy is damaged by public knowledge.

You realize that terror networks had basically managed to blind us with a communications blackout before this, right? Once they realized we could capture internet traffic, they stopped sending emails. Instead they kept a gmail inbox with draft emails and passed the account information around on scraps of paper. That made our massive technological advantage basically worthless. We were reduced to humint infiltration of terror networks. Which is difficult, and arduous, and unreliable. It's what put us on our heels and had us guessing at shadows before 9/11.

But with the cooperation of all the major ISPs and search companies, we conquered that challenge and have made amazing progress in destroying major terror networks around the world over the past 5 years. And now what? All of it down the toilet so that you can have affirmed what you likely already suspected if you weren't a dimwit: that the government reads your email. So what? If you're not a god damn terrorist it doesn't matter.

Now look where you stand: The president has told you he's not going to change the programs, your gut tells you that's the truth. Nothing will change about how we gather intelligence. But the enemy is now aware of our tactics. We've gained nothing and lost substantially.

So you don't see the danger in either of those two things? Remember we're the country of Japanese Internment and the McCarthy hearings in The House Committee on Un-American Activities, which fucked up a lot of lives on the mere suspicion of foreign sympathies.

You think our government isn't capable of doing even worse now, with the additional powers it's gained over the years? It may take decades to come to a head, but these 2 things you love so much inevitably lead to abuse, and I've seen nothing more than airy promises and vague, ever-changing numbers attempting to rationalize their use.

"ZOMG it saved us from 7, no 8, no 11, no 50 terrorist attacks! Yeah fifty! That's a good number for the media!" -The NSA

If it saved us from so many, you'd think they could release the technical details for the experts to confirm, at least the specifics about how the metadata helped, but they haven't. Hell why didn't they reveal these purported 50 thwartings as they occurred? Don't have to go into detail, just say "BREAKING NEWS! Today agents of the NSA working in conjunction with local authorities thwarted a terrorist attack in its infancy... *plaster terrorist face and biography on news for two weeks*"

No, this program has no rational justification; that or the government is concealing it for God knows why. It starts with terrorists, and if it's not dismantled it will end with political opponents; all as soon as a few people not as cuddly as Obama get into the right positions.

And even when that happens, people like you will still defend it for some reason, and say that ruining or even ending the lives of a few innocents is worth the cost of preventing a miniscule amount of death.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Fixed. If Obama's proven one thing recently, he's not all that good at intentionally making things happen.

Perhaps in terms of policy but ask Assange what he thinks when it's the President vs. an individual.

In terms of extradition though it's possible Obama could offer something under the table to get Snowden back, who is obviously guilty because he's a "traitor" and guilty of anything they say he is.

If they get him back straight to Gitmo or the equivalent? A trial? We'd never know what was what because it would be "national security" all the way. Considering the government has already announced his guilt he has no chance at a fair trial and there is no venue that would not be prejudicial, but that old piece of trash known as the Constitution won't stand in the way.