White House Find $20 Billion In Cuts....

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
President Barack Obama will propose cutting or changing some 120 items in his budget for fiscal 2011 that will help save $20 billion this year, the White House said on Saturday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60T21S20100130?type=politicsNews

In other news....
President Obama is expected to send a $3.8 trillion budget to Congress on Monday for the coming fiscal year, according to The New York Times.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/30/report-obama-propose-trillion-budget/
That is about an 9% spending increase.
(This is a 1 trillion dollars over Bushes last full budget in 2008 of $2.8 trillion.)

Run the budget up by 35% then institute a spending freeze. Why didn't I think of that?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Credible economists say government spending is important for keeping the economy going in bad times, despite the debt. But it has political costs among a not that well informed public.

Sounds like a pretty good way to play the game. Take care of the country and keep higher political support.

I'm very concerned about the deficit - but I've been saying that a long time and supported policies that would have helped with it when we could. A temporary spending period is needed for the good of the economy, which is the basis for the prosperity needed to get the money so we can do better things and end the deficit when the economy is better.

FDR made the mistake of saying 'the economy is recovered, time to end the big goverment stimulus and brought about the 1937 recession.

Some on the right ilike to say things really turned around from WWII. Economically, what was WWII but the nation's largest every government project, borrowing enormously eo employ people in wasteful acitivities, out using weapons and building war items to get lost? Argue for the private sector to do this activity instead - but not when you support policies for increased concentration of wealth that hurts the economy, feeding corrupt industries dominating the economy such as the finance industry taking 41% or all profit from parasitical practices, the healthcare insurance companies almost doubling healthcare cost.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Craig, you need to also include the massive reversal of tax breaks that had been implemented in the earlier part of the century. ONLY when taxation returned to a steeply progressive level did the economy right itself.

Public works alone won't save a dying economy, and neither will war alone. You have to also have a strong tax base. We go into recession/depression whenever we significantly lower taxes. It's not rocket science.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Craig, you need to also include the massive reversal of tax breaks that had been implemented in the earlier part of the century. ONLY when taxation returned to a steeply progressive level did the economy right itself.

Public works alone won't save a dying economy, and neither will war alone. You have to also have a strong tax base. We go into recession/depression whenever we significantly lower taxes. It's not rocket science.

There's also an issue of aiming the taxes. A tax break to one (small business) might be aimed at stimulating the economy, while another might be aimed at paying off a donor.

Lower taxes tend to stimulate the economy rather than leading to recession, but typically only 22% of the Bush cuts came back in taxes as I recall, as they drove up the deficit.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
That is about an 9% spending increase.
(This is a 1 trillion dollars over Bushes last full budget in 2008 of $2.8 trillion.)
Is that $2.8T including TARP and Iraq/Afghanistan?

Oh, it doesn't according to Wikipedia. link
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
An increase in gov't spending is just one way to get out of a recession (one tool in the toolbox). If Obama's entire plan is to spend our way out of this recession by increasing government spending, then we're in big trouble. It sounds like he wants to artifically prop us up for the coming election. Hopefully we won't be paying for this later.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Craig, you need to also include the massive reversal of tax breaks that had been implemented in the earlier part of the century. ONLY when taxation returned to a steeply progressive level did the economy right itself.

Public works alone won't save a dying economy, and neither will war alone. You have to also have a strong tax base. We go into recession/depression whenever we significantly lower taxes. It's not rocket science.
Would you care to back up your claim with facts and evidence???

Also, your comment about a 'strong tax base' is completely upside down. You don't have a strong tax base due to steeply progressive tax rates. You have a strong tax base due to have a fair tax system that encourages growth and business.

California has one of the most progressive tax systems in the country and it is on the verge of going bankrupt. Meanwhile Texas is a low tax states that has a balanced budget.

Finally, it is an undeniable truth that tax cuts create economic activity. Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton and Bush all passed major tax cuts during their terms and all saw strong economic expansions after those tax cuts were passed.

The only real question about tax cuts is whether they pay for themselves which is debatable and tends to vary depending on the tax cut.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Would you care to back up your claim with facts and evidence???

Ha.

The only real question about tax cuts is whether they pay for themselves which is debatable and tends to vary depending on the tax cut.

The PJ partisan dictionary explains "debatable" means "somethign clearly shows PJ disagrees with so he can't quite just say the wrong thing. For example, whether Saddam had WMD threatening us is debatable.

The Bush tax cuts returned 22% on the dollar, I've seen.

Yes, it was another matter lowering the top 90% rate to 70%, as JFK did following the depression/WWII era, than it is today with the much lower rates post-Reagan.

It's not 'debatable' whether the Bush-type debt-increasing tax cuts pay more back in taxes.

They're theft from future taxpayers, at the least.

It's as is a parent could take cash out of his baby's bank account his child has to pay back decades later plus interest.

Nice chart here on some payback rates:

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008104427/tax-cuts-ineffcient-stimulus
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Scary but educational.

Educational in a fun way, no?

It's sad that we have an entire generation of idiots + politicians (also idiots) unable to handle simple personal finance. Responsible people like us get screwed because they are the majority.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
I suppose its better than nothing, but its all smoke and mirrors. You wont get the economy back on its feet until unless you get 5% knocked off the unemployment rate.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Would you care to back up your claim with facts and evidence???

Also, your comment about a 'strong tax base' is completely upside down. You don't have a strong tax base due to steeply progressive tax rates. You have a strong tax base due to have a fair tax system that encourages growth and business.

California has one of the most progressive tax systems in the country and it is on the verge of going bankrupt. Meanwhile Texas is a low tax states that has a balanced budget.

Finally, it is an undeniable truth that tax cuts create economic activity. Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton and Bush all passed major tax cuts during their terms and all saw strong economic expansions after those tax cuts were passed.

The only real question about tax cuts is whether they pay for themselves which is debatable and tends to vary depending on the tax cut.

You want evidence? Let's review.

First - I'm betting we have opposing views on what a 'strong economy' is. I am not a believer in GDP, markets, or other volume or high-end indicators. For me the economy is one thing: the health of the lower and middle class. If the bulk of nation can pay for a place to live, education, food, clothing, etc then the economy is good. When they can't, the economy is bad. The bulk of the nation (75%) makes less than $50,000/yr and 2/3 of those make less than $25,000/yr. That means that to me the economy is entirely dictated by how well a person who makes about $25,000/yr lives. Now, in times past those numbers were very different...they were shifted more towards the middle than the low end. But still, the bulk of the nation has been in the low middle or lower end of the earning spectrum.

So I have to look at the history of those people from say, 1920 on. Before that we were still too agrarian to compare the economies, and there weren't good enough records to get a solid picture anyway.

So let's see when the periods of high unemployment, high cost of living, low purchasing power were.

Of course we had the Great Depression (29-39 roughly). This immediately followed a period of sharp tax decline (from 70-20% at the top end). Pulling us out saw upper tax rates returned to 80% (and if you're a war savior mindset then it was 90% during that period). Now, it's important to note that it wasn't just taxes, but overall business/industry/corporate regulation as well. The period leading up to the great depression was all deregulation (or often just no regulation yet in place). The period of the recovery was strict regulation. It's also important to note that the severe tax rate (individual and corporate) kept the debt/deficit reasonably in check during the INTENSE spending the government did to help pull us out.

I tend to overlook the '48-54 mild recessions because there are so many other factors (shifting from war economy to peace economy, so many dead, changes in immigration, sudden change in household incomes, etc). However, if you want them considered you will find tax cuts and deregulation from about '42 (for war industries), and from '45 (for individuals and other industries). Tax rates raised again in '52, along with some new oversight, and the recession ended.

Then we get to the early '70s and all those issues. The '60s saw a 20% individual tax reduction at the high end. The late '60s were also the beginning of major deregulation, especially in the financial sector, advertising/marketing, pharmaceuticals, etc. There were other issues creeping up about this time, mostly international, so it again is murky to nail down specifics.

The mild recession in '80/'81 followed another 20% tax drop. The mild recession in '90/'91 followed another 20% tax drop. We're also looking at the most abusive deregulation in our history from 1980 to 1988 (thanks Raygun). Our current situation follows another 8 year session of tax breaks and deregulation. That's three recessions in three decades despite some of the largest booms in our history. All of which followed periods of tax breaks and deregulation.

If you look at the overall picture something very interesting develops. Not only do tax breaks and deregulation specifically lead to recessions, but the frequency of the 'bad times' is inversely proportional to the overall amount of regulation. When corporations and industry were on a tight leash with only infrequent loophole legislation or allowances we seldom saw a recession. When deregulation became the norm, we plunge every few years.

This also accompanies the periods of highest debt/deficit growth. When we were offsetting war costs with increased taxes, it wasn't a major hit. When we tied war costs to tax breaks, everything went to hell. When we tied tax hikes to government spending on economy stabilization, everything recovered nicely. When the government spends without tax hikes, everything stays in the crapper.

Finally, getting back to my own outlook, the purchasing power of the lower to middle class individual declines directly in proportion to the level of regulation. The less regulation on corporation/industry, the lower the upper tax rate, the less necessities can be afforded by these people that make up 75% of our nation. Compare housing prices, food prices, gas prices, health care costs, etc against the backdrop graphs on deregulation and upper tax rate. They're perfectly inverted. Mind you, luxury/entertainment is not included because it actually operates on the opposite trends for the most part.

America is strong and stable when we have a progressive tax rate with few breaks/loopholes, combined with strict regulation on corporations and industry. America goes to crap whenever we give those sectors a break, or stop watching them like hawks.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Credible economists say government spending is important for keeping the economy going in bad times, despite the debt. But it has political costs among a not that well informed public.

That wasn't what you where saying when Bush was deficit spending.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Credible economists say government spending is important for keeping the economy going in bad times, despite the debt. But it has political costs among a not that well informed public.

Sounds like a pretty good way to play the game. Take care of the country and keep higher political support.

I'm very concerned about the deficit - but I've been saying that a long time and supported policies that would have helped with it when we could. A temporary spending period is needed for the good of the economy, which is the basis for the prosperity needed to get the money so we can do better things and end the deficit when the economy is better.

FDR made the mistake of saying 'the economy is recovered, time to end the big goverment stimulus and brought about the 1937 recession.

Some on the right ilike to say things really turned around from WWII. Economically, what was WWII but the nation's largest every government project, borrowing enormously eo employ people in wasteful acitivities, out using weapons and building war items to get lost? Argue for the private sector to do this activity instead - but not when you support policies for increased concentration of wealth that hurts the economy, feeding corrupt industries dominating the economy such as the finance industry taking 41% or all profit from parasitical practices, the healthcare insurance companies almost doubling healthcare cost.

Spending on what? What about the remainder of the stimulus bill that hasn't been spent? How long will we have to add trillions to the debt and do you think that the worlds economy can support our spending?

On a side note, I have always been curious of your spending position considering your other positions such as "universal fairness". Is it really fair that the US borrows so much of the available global money for itself leaving much less for less fortunate countries and their issues? Don't the progressives use the same argument with oil/energy?