Which world would you rather live in?

[CKent]

Originally posted by: ddjkdg
CKent, you're what's wrong with America, and the world really. What's ironic is that if you were on the other side of the fence and grew up in some Wahhabi village or Palestinian camp, you'd be the one strapping a bomb to yourself to go blow people up, because your simple-mindedness and lack of any critical thinking ability whatsoever gives others the power to control you.

If I grew up in the muslim world, I'd likely eschew their religion just as I did the catholicism I was raised with here in the western world. I like to think for myself, and no one controls me but me. Especially not an invisible Skydaddy.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: irishScott
Anyway, there are very VERY (give or take a very) few Muslims who think that way.

True, but there are a great deal who think 9/11 was just punishment for... god knows what, these people scapegoat us for everything... even if they themselves wouldn't have taken such drastic measures. There's a popular quote "The militant muslim is the one cutting the infidel's head off. The moderate muslim is the one holding the victim's feet". While you can't deny people their opinion, it seems obvious that the general muslim mindset fuels extremism.

And of those that do, why do you think that is? They're brainwashed.

Ah, so it's that simple. No personal responsibility whatsoever, they're just puppets looking for someone to pull their strings. It's ironic that I give their intelligence more credit than you do.

They're radicals. To lump all Muslims in with them is like lumping all Christians in with the Westboro Baptist Church. Including the Catholics and other non-protestants.

That's really not far off the mark... Look at prop 8. Look at the Pope sentencing his African followers to death by AIDS by telling them condoms don't work. Mainstream Christians are seriously fucked up and hate-filled people, but at least they don't fly planes into buildings.

For another example with the same characters, it's like saying Christianity made the Westboro Baptist Church members like they are. Has nothing to do with the fact that they're just fucking crazy. :roll:

The bible doesn't repeatedly prescribe death to nonbelievers and for almost every sin committed by believers. The Quran does. This is why the WBC is nuts while muslims are just following their book.

In short you're over-generalizing. Which is stupid, and, since you don't like "bigoted", "ideologically biased" to the extreme.

I really have no issue with the term bigot. I don't think it fits, since it implies baseless hatred while I feel I have good reason, but "mild bemusement" best describes my feelings as the same few posters keep spitting the word at me as if it's some sort of weapon.

Has nothing to do with personal responsibility. Imagine you were born in an Afghan village where you maybe had contact with the village a few miles down the road, at most. You are constantly exposed to the violence of various warlords, the Taliban, etc. You are raised, from childhood, to hate your enemies. Then one day one of your friends comes along and tells you all these horror stories he heard about Americans eating Muslim babies. Then other people start telling the story, and before you know it everyone you know believes it because they believe they've heard it from a credible source. It gets firmly entrenched.

Then one day the US invades Afghanistan and a convoy rolls into town, everyone screams "Jihad on the baby eaters!" How are you going to react?

That's where the radicals are coming from. Those are the people who are blowing themselves up. The flunkies. The ones who really know the score (or think they do) are at the top, and it's not about Islam. It's about some form of power. They're just twisting Islam to their benefit. Like other cult leaders. They're sure as hell not blowing themselves up. They're also fucking crazy. Intelligence doesn't negate brainwashing. Ever hear of stockholm syndrome?


Mainstream Christians are hate-filled?

You think the pope is mainstream? You do realise that the "mainstream" population of anything rarely makes the news right? It's simply not exciting enough to be newsworthy. I personally know plenty of mainstream Christians and I can't find a single hate filled trait about them. For the record, I'm neither Christian nor Muslim.

Another example is the political disparity in the US. You learn in political science 101 that most US voters are moderate, but the radicals are generally the only ones who are interesting enough to make the news. Remember that the media is a corporation. Like any corporation, their goal is to make money. There's a reason Yellow Journalism used to be a huge issue.

And if you think the bible doesn't prescribe death, you should read the old testament. Last I checked God sent a flood to wipe out a whole bunch of sinners, among other things. New testament or not, the old testament is still part of Christianity.

As for your hatred, if you hate all of Islam, and feel it is justified, then you are more hate-filled then even the most conservative Christians I know. But then again, that kinda makes sense given your viewpoint.

There's actually a line from the Koran that confirms your attitude: A coward thinks all other men are cowards, and a thief thinks all others are thieves. This was known thousands of years before it was established by modern psychological studies.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: irishScott

Anyway, there are very VERY (give or take a very) few Muslims who think that way. And of those that do, why do you think that is? They're brainwashed.

making excuses

http://www.channel4.com/news/a...+truth+about+77/545847
"24% believe the four men identified as the July 7th bombers were not actually responsible for the attacks. "

"40% of british muslims want sharia law"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...-sharia-law-in-UK.html

"urning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death." Among the over 55s, the figure is only 19 per cent.

Three out of four young Muslims would prefer Muslim women to "choose to wear the veil or hijab," compared to only a quarter of over-55s.

Support was also strong for Islamic schools, according to the Populus survey of 1,000 people commissioned by Policy Exchange. "
http://islamineurope.blogspot....tish-muslim-youth.html

its only worse in actually islamic countries. where everything from 9/11 denial to holocaust denial is rampant.

I'd like to see the details of those polls. The most detail those articles give is how many people were interviewed. No details on how the selection was done, how random the sample was, how the questions were phrased, etc. You also learn in political science 101 exactly how unreliable polls can be. I've read polls on this same issue with drastically different numbers.

 

[Riceninja]

i applaud rolo for making this thread

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: irishScott
Has nothing to do with personal responsibility. Imagine you were born in an Afghan village where you maybe had contact with the village a few miles down the road, at most. You are constantly exposed to the violence of various warlords, the Taliban, etc. You are raised, from childhood, to hate your enemies. Then one day one of your friends comes along and tells you all these horror stories he heard about Americans eating Muslim babies. Then other people start telling the story, and before you know it everyone you know believes it because they believe they've heard it from a credible source. It gets firmly entrenched.

Then one day the US invades Afghanistan and a convoy rolls into town, everyone screams "Jihad on the baby eaters!" How are you going to react?

That's where the radicals are coming from. Those are the people who are blowing themselves up. The flunkies. The ones who really know the score (or think they do) are at the top, and it's not about Islam. It's about some form of power. They're just twisting Islam to their benefit. Like other cult leaders. They're sure as hell not blowing themselves up. They're also fucking crazy. Intelligence doesn't negate brainwashing. Ever hear of stockholm syndrome?

Well that makes it ok. Won't anyone think of the poor terrorists? Let's give them a nuke so they can better express their views next time. What? Iran's already on it? Great!

Mainstream Christians are hate-filled?

Yes. Prop 8 wasn't voted in by a whacko minority. And that's just one example. It can be hard to see christianity objectively when you're surrounded by it.

You think the pope is mainstream?

He is the single most influential religious / spiritual leader in the entire world.

I personally know plenty of mainstream Christians and I can't find a single hate filled trait about them. For the record, I'm neither Christian nor Muslim.

I could mention sample size, but I'll just tell you to look harder.

Another example is the political disparity in the US. You learn in political science 101 that most US voters are moderate, but the radicals are generally the only ones who are interesting enough to make the news. Remember that the media is a corporation. Like any corporation, their goal is to make money. There's a reason Yellow Journalism used to be a huge issue.

I don't watch the news much, I just read BBC News religiously. I read about a suicide bombing in the middle east just about every day. How do you spin a story like that? Someone either blew up a bunch of people or didn't. There's no bias involved.

And if you think the bible doesn't prescribe death, you should read the old testament. Last I checked God sent a flood to wipe out a whole bunch of sinners, among other things. New testament or not, the old testament is still part of Christianity.

The bible doesn't come close to the quran in terms of violence.

As for your hatred, if you hate all of Islam, and feel it is justified, then you are more hate-filled then even the most conservative Christians I know. But then again, that kinda makes sense given your viewpoint.

This from someone who sympathizes with the 9/11 hijackers. Wow.

There's actually a line from the Koran that confirms your attitude: A coward thinks all other men are cowards, and a thief thinks all others are thieves. This was known thousands of years before it was established by modern psychological studies.

Where in the book is that line in relation to these?

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."

2:224 "Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things."

3:157-158 "And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together."

3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."

3:195 "... Those who have ... fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God ..."

4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

4:74, 75 "Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."

4:89 "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them?"

4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).

5:36 "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter."

5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

8:12-17 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war ... he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed)."

8:59-60 "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know ..."

8:65 "O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding."

9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."

9:14 "Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame ..."

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."

61:4 "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: irishScott
Has nothing to do with personal responsibility. Imagine you were born in an Afghan village where you maybe had contact with the village a few miles down the road, at most. You are constantly exposed to the violence of various warlords, the Taliban, etc. You are raised, from childhood, to hate your enemies. Then one day one of your friends comes along and tells you all these horror stories he heard about Americans eating Muslim babies. Then other people start telling the story, and before you know it everyone you know believes it because they believe they've heard it from a credible source. It gets firmly entrenched.

Then one day the US invades Afghanistan and a convoy rolls into town, everyone screams "Jihad on the baby eaters!" How are you going to react?

That's where the radicals are coming from. Those are the people who are blowing themselves up. The flunkies. The ones who really know the score (or think they do) are at the top, and it's not about Islam. It's about some form of power. They're just twisting Islam to their benefit. Like other cult leaders. They're sure as hell not blowing themselves up. They're also fucking crazy. Intelligence doesn't negate brainwashing. Ever hear of stockholm syndrome?

Well that makes it ok. Won't anyone think of the poor terrorists? Let's give them a nuke so they can better express their views next time. What? Iran's already on it? Great!

Mainstream Christians are hate-filled?

Yes. Prop 8 wasn't voted in by a whacko minority. And that's just one example. It can be hard to see christianity objectively when you're surrounded by it.

You think the pope is mainstream?

He is the single most influential religious / spiritual leader in the entire world.

I personally know plenty of mainstream Christians and I can't find a single hate filled trait about them. For the record, I'm neither Christian nor Muslim.

I could mention sample size, but I'll just tell you to look harder.

Another example is the political disparity in the US. You learn in political science 101 that most US voters are moderate, but the radicals are generally the only ones who are interesting enough to make the news. Remember that the media is a corporation. Like any corporation, their goal is to make money. There's a reason Yellow Journalism used to be a huge issue.

I don't watch the news much, I just read BBC News religiously. I read about a suicide bombing in the middle east just about every day. How do you spin a story like that? Someone either blew up a bunch of people or didn't. There's no bias involved.

And if you think the bible doesn't prescribe death, you should read the old testament. Last I checked God sent a flood to wipe out a whole bunch of sinners, among other things. New testament or not, the old testament is still part of Christianity.

The bible doesn't come close to the quran in terms of violence.

As for your hatred, if you hate all of Islam, and feel it is justified, then you are more hate-filled then even the most conservative Christians I know. But then again, that kinda makes sense given your viewpoint.

This from someone who sympathizes with the 9/11 hijackers. Wow.

There's actually a line from the Koran that confirms your attitude: A coward thinks all other men are cowards, and a thief thinks all others are thieves. This was known thousands of years before it was established by modern psychological studies.

Where in the book is that line in relation to these?

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."

2:224 "Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things."

3:157-158 "And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together."

3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."

3:195 "... Those who have ... fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God ..."

4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

4:74, 75 "Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."

4:89 "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them?"

4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).

5:36 "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter."

5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

8:12-17 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war ... he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed)."

8:59-60 "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know ..."

8:65 "O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding."

9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."

9:14 "Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame ..."

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."

61:4 "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

When did I say it was ok to give them nukes? For that matter, since when were we even discussing that issue? My point with that section was that you claimed if you were born into that society you would simply "eschew the religion", even if you had no exposure to anything outside that religion. That's identical to the religious fundies who think that even a kid in an isolated bubble will become Christian, even if he's never even heard the name Jesus. Let alone read the Bible.

For prop 8, I fail to see how that's "hate filled". I don't agree with it, but there are many motives other than hatred for standing up for one's beliefs. I think the gun laws in some states are "wrong". Doesn't mean I "hate" them or hate those who put them into place. I simply disagree on moral and logical grounds.

As for the pope being mainstream, I guess we have different definitions of "mainstream". I suppose you consider Obama to be a "mainstream" American democrat? I prefer to judge off the actual people you are relating these leaders too. The leaders themselves are generally far from the norm.

My sample size is actually in the hundreds believe it or not, ranging from Catholics to southern Baptists (generally via family and college groups). In any case, you should read "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. Sure you can find a good number of hate filled Christians. I can also find a good number of hate filled Agnostics, Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, etc if I look hard enough. Any large religious group has a significant number of these people. In most cases however they are far from the majority and are thus hardly "mainstream".

As for media Bias, BBC is better than most of the other major sources I've read, but that's a matter of opinion. They're still bias. Every time a Muslim extremist blows himself up or stones a rape victim to death you hear about it. You never hear about the hundreds of millions that don't. Same story with coalition troops in Iraq/Afghanistan. Every time a bad guy shoots and hits, you hear about it. You almost never hear about the 1000 times he shoots and misses.

Maybe not as close, but there's a very significant amount in there. Islam isn't the only religion with violence.

And how did you arrive at the conclusion that I sympathise with the hijackers? Is everything so binary in your world? What they did is inexcusable, but the explanation is far more complex and multi-faceted than "because they were Muslims". Gray area seems to be beyond you though. You take comfort in the false certainty of hatred. Including hatred of me and my views; hatred you rationalised by assuming (with no valid evidence) that I sympathise with the hijackers. That makes me, in your mind, one of them, and thus a valid target for your hatred, allowing you to blot out the facts of my arguments. Like other extremists. The fact that you are taking these measures simply proves that my arguments are getting to you.


As for those verses you quoted, I see nothing beyond simple ideological bigotry, which is common to every religion in some form. Most are out of context, and many of the more violent references appear to have a "during war" context, in which case they'd make some sort of primitive sense. Besides, like any religion, they are open to interpretation. How do you know it's not talking about spiritual warfare? In addition, many of them reference the "will of God and his Apostle" or some such thing, which is an abstract concept at best. Like I pointed out earlier, the verses can be easily twisted to incite violence. Just because something is vulnerable doesn't make it responsible. Say there was a spike in the number of rapes in any given city. Would you blame the women for not knowing how to defend themselves?

 

[CKent]

This is what I was talking about when I said it's difficult to see christianity objectively when you're surrounded by it. They call it "morals" and "beliefs", but what they're really doing with gay marriage is telling others what they can or can't do consentually in privacy, and denying them the right to marry and be happy. That's hate. As for all the christians you know, I doubt they wear deepseated feelings on their sleeves any more than anyone else does. "Hey Bob, nice weather" "Yep, it's a beautiful day. And I sure wish faggots were all dead."

Influential figures like the pope and Barack Obama can change the definition of mainstream.

You inferred that you're anti-gun, am I misreading it? If so, I find it ironic that you would want them done away with for the latent threat they pose, yet support islam in spite of the latent threat it poses. People usually go one way or the other; remove all risk or allow risk and the possible consequences, but it's rare to see a split.

As for the rest of your post, you make some good points and I really can't refute some of what you're saying. But I live in New York and found 9/11 especially traumatic. It affected me on a deeper level than logical, conscious thought. It burned hatred for Islam into me and I can no more change that than the color of my hair.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: CKent
But I live in New York and found 9/11 especially traumatic. It affected me on a deeper level than logical, conscious thought. It burned hatred for Islam into me and I can no more change that than the color of my hair.

Then quit whining about it on the computer and go do something about it. The US military is always looking for people...What better way to express your hatred for Islam than to go to "hadji-land" and kill them there?

Remember, better to kill them in Iraq than to kill them in New York. :roll:

Lots of my generation went to Vietnam to kill Communists...although, in my opinion, we didn't kill NEARLY enough of them.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: CKent
But I live in New York and found 9/11 especially traumatic. It affected me on a deeper level than logical, conscious thought. It burned hatred for Islam into me and I can no more change that than the color of my hair.

Then quit whining about it on the computer and go do something about it. The US military is always looking for people...What better way to express your hatred for Islam than to go to "hadji-land" and kill them there?

Remember, better to kill them in Iraq than to kill them in New York. :roll:

Lots of my generation went to Vietnam to kill Communists...although, in my opinion, we didn't kill NEARLY enough of them.

I'm no killer.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: CKent
This is what I was talking about when I said it's difficult to see christianity objectively when you're surrounded by it. They call it "morals" and "beliefs", but what they're really doing with gay marriage is telling others what they can or can't do consentually in privacy, and denying them the right to marry and be happy. That's hate. As for all the christians you know, I doubt they wear deepseated feelings on their sleeves any more than anyone else does. "Hey Bob, nice weather" "Yep, it's a beautiful day. And I sure wish faggots were all dead."

Influential figures like the pope and Barack Obama can change the definition of mainstream.

You inferred that you're anti-gun, am I misreading it? If so, I find it ironic that you would want them done away with for the latent threat they pose, yet support islam in spite of the latent threat it poses. People usually go one way or the other; remove all risk or allow risk and the possible consequences, but it's rare to see a split.

As for the rest of your post, you make some good points and I really can't refute some of what you're saying. But I live in New York and found 9/11 especially traumatic. It affected me on a deeper level than logical, conscious thought. It burned hatred for Islam into me and I can no more change that than the color of my hair.

Well maybe not, but I've had religious discussions/debates with most of them and you'd be surprised. Besides, wishing "all faggots were dead" would go against most of the tenants of the new testament.

True, but not always easily. It takes acceptance by the general population to make it mainstream, and that acceptance depends on the issue and the magnitude of the proposed change, among other factors.

As for your hatred, sure I can understand the cause, but see a grief counsellor or something. Hating the hijackers and terrorists is one thing, hating all Muslims based on those fanatics is quite another.

 

[bobdole369]

Muslims are a very structured orderly peace loving people with no real violence in them. Its the extremists that ruin the image (much like ultraconservatives that do stuff like blow up abortion clinics and attack teachers who teach science and math). I grew up outside Dearborn, MI (a veritable little Tehran) - and growing up some of my best friends are muslim. They are the most trustworthy people I know - mostly cuz it costs your hand if you screw someone over.

I moved to Miami (little jerusalem) 10 years ago - and the difference is night and day.