Which side will cry uncle first, those supporting cheap gas or more expensive gas

[glenn1]

Asking this because it seems that the approach is still not settled. Once upon a time it was fashionable for those of a certain mindset to favor $4/gallon gasoline. Now $4 gas is here, and we have some folks (like Senator Schumer) complaining about high gas prices and wanting to bring costs down, and yet others favoring still higher prices.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Asking this because it seems that the approach is still not settled. Once upon a time it was fashionable for those of a certain mindset to favor $4/gallon gasoline. Now $4 gas is here, and we have some folks (like Senator Schumer) complaining about high gas prices and wanting to bring costs down, and yet others favoring still higher prices.

Those that you say favored it, was it through taxes going to the government and helping people reduce their dependence on oil while providing some sort of service with the increase in tax revenue or by increased prices going to the oil companies?

 

[sandorski]

You can Conserve and have Low Prices, but people get all up in arms about the method.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Asking this because it seems that the approach is still not settled. Once upon a time it was fashionable for those of a certain mindset to favor $4/gallon gasoline. Now $4 gas is here, and we have some folks (like Senator Schumer) complaining about high gas prices and wanting to bring costs down, and yet others favoring still higher prices.

Schumer doesn't want to bring costs down. If he wanted to bring costs down, he wouldn't have effectively said that extracting 1 million gallons of oil per day from ANWR would only bring down the cost of gas 1 penny and then said a few days later that getting Saudi Arabia to increase production by 1 million gallons of oil per day would bring down the cost of gas by $0.62.

Politicians like Schumer are only interested in playing politics. Not solving problems.

Then there are the complete retards like Sen Maxine Waters who just threatened to nationalize the oil industry.

 

[Bitek]

The way to do it would have been to make it $4 based on taxation (evil word I know) and use the funds to research domestic alt energy sources and technology, as well as put the $ into infrastructure so the country was more well positioned for higher oil prices. The $ would have at least stayed in the country instead of Venezuela/Iran/Iraq/Saudi/etc's pockets. PA has 6000 "structurally deficient" bridges alone (and lots of potential blue collar jobs.) Also w/ taxes, you can always cut them back if price goes too high. Tho its utter fantasy to think this amt of gas taxes would have flown w/ the American voter....

As it is now, we've invested little in technology and infrastructure, and instead built cities and the economy based around cheap gas and oil. Now its high and we're totally unprepared and short on alternatives. We have nowhere to cut prices, and way behind on developing tech. It will come, but it will be a few painful years until we can start catching up.

 

[LegendKiller]

$6 here myself. Oil will come down and so will gas, but I agree with above. Tax the flying fuck out of it and develop alternative transportation, energy, and infrastructure.

 

[Perknose]

Unfortunately, with the respective rise of the Chinese and Indian economies, lowering consumption of oil here in the US will not necessarily drive prices down much, if at all.

The continued expansion of those other two economies will likely MORE than offset any national conservation efforts that are politically feasible here.

Price ain't going south, son.

For a broad array of solid reasons, though, we do need to (take a time machine back to the first oil crisis in the 70's and) institute a saner, more balanced and more forward looking national energy policy that walks us a few steps back from Mother Oil.

Only the dimbulb, chest pounding rubes can't see this.

OP, welcome to 2008. There is no more cheap gas.

Sorry.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: Hafen
The way to do it would have been to make it $4 based on taxation (evil word I know) and use the funds to research domestic alt energy sources and technology, as well as put the $ into infrastructure so the country was more well positioned for higher oil prices. The $ would have at least stayed in the country instead of Venezuela/Iran/Iraq/Saudi/etc's pockets. PA has 6000 "structurally deficient" bridges alone (and lots of potential blue collar jobs.) Also w/ taxes, you can always cut them back if price goes too high. Tho its utter fantasy to think this amt of gas taxes would have flown w/ the American voter....

As it is now, we've invested little in technology and infrastructure, and instead built cities and the economy based around cheap gas and oil. Now its high and we're totally unprepared and short on alternatives. We have nowhere to cut prices, and way behind on developing tech. It will come, but it will be a few painful years until we can start catching up.

This may well be the most thought out post I've ever read on ATP&N forums... hindsight FTW!

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Unfortunately, with the respective rise of the Chinese and Indian economies, lowering consumption of oil here in the US will not necessarily drive prices down much, if at all.

The continued expansion of those other two economies will likely MORE than offset any national conservation efforts that are politically feasible here.

Price ain't going south, son.

For a broad array of solid reasons, though, we do need to (take a time machine back to the first oil crisis in the 70's and) institute a saner, more balanced and more forward looking national energy policy that walks us a few steps back from Mother Oil.

Only the dimbulb, chest pounding rubes can't see this.

OP, welcome to 2008. There is no more cheap gas.

Sorry.

Yup, that's the main "problem" right there. This goes back to the controversial Unsustainability argument. It is currently impossible for the People of Earth to all share the lifestyle that exists in the US and other Western Nations. As such, the only way to bring the whole Planet up to that lifestyle is to dramatically change the supports of the Western Lifestyle. Of course there is another alternative to that though, that is to keep the rest of the People on the Planet down. The second option really isn't an option though, at least not in the longterm.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: Hafen
The way to do it would have been to make it $4 based on taxation (evil word I know) and use the funds to research domestic alt energy sources and technology, as well as put the $ into infrastructure so the country was more well positioned for higher oil prices. The $ would have at least stayed in the country instead of Venezuela/Iran/Iraq/Saudi/etc's pockets. PA has 6000 "structurally deficient" bridges alone (and lots of potential blue collar jobs.) Also w/ taxes, you can always cut them back if price goes too high. Tho its utter fantasy to think this amt of gas taxes would have flown w/ the American voter....

As it is now, we've invested little in technology and infrastructure, and instead built cities and the economy based around cheap gas and oil. Now its high and we're totally unprepared and short on alternatives. We have nowhere to cut prices, and way behind on developing tech. It will come, but it will be a few painful years until we can start catching up.

This may well be the most thought out post I've ever read on ATP&N forums... hindsight FTW!

Jimmy Carter was right.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: Hafen
The way to do it would have been to make it $4 based on taxation (evil word I know) and use the funds to research domestic alt energy sources and technology, as well as put the $ into infrastructure so the country was more well positioned for higher oil prices. The $ would have at least stayed in the country instead of Venezuela/Iran/Iraq/Saudi/etc's pockets. PA has 6000 "structurally deficient" bridges alone (and lots of potential blue collar jobs.) Also w/ taxes, you can always cut them back if price goes too high. Tho its utter fantasy to think this amt of gas taxes would have flown w/ the American voter....

As it is now, we've invested little in technology and infrastructure, and instead built cities and the economy based around cheap gas and oil. Now its high and we're totally unprepared and short on alternatives. We have nowhere to cut prices, and way behind on developing tech. It will come, but it will be a few painful years until we can start catching up.

This may well be the most thought out post I've ever read on ATP&N forums... hindsight FTW!

Jimmy Carter was right.

Of course he was. I think history, in the end, will show that many of his ideas, if followed, would have lead to this country being far better.

 

[naddicott]

We had an opportunity for a precautionary energy policy after the 1970s oil crisis scare, but all the major research efforts that were just getting underway in response to the crisis were trashed shortly after the crisis was over - putting us ~20-30 years behind where we could be by now. At this point, the wonders of the free market will take care of energy policy for us, no political stances towards gas prices required.

The "cost effectiveness" of alternate energy technologies is measured against the cost of oil, and they're getting cheaper by the day.

 

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Unfortunately, with the respective rise of the Chinese and Indian economies, lowering consumption of oil here in the US will not necessarily drive prices down much, if at all.

The continued expansion of those other two economies will likely MORE than offset any national conservation efforts that are politically feasible here.

Price ain't going south, son.

For a broad array of solid reasons, though, we do need to (take a time machine back to the first oil crisis in the 70's and) institute a saner, more balanced and more forward looking national energy policy that walks us a few steps back from Mother Oil.

Only the dimbulb, chest pounding rubes can't see this.

OP, welcome to 2008. There is no more cheap gas.

Sorry.

Gas prices don't bother me. Sure, I'd probably rather spend the money on other things, but if the price went up I wouldn't have to change my lifestyle. Especially not with the extra 50% bump to $6/gal, which is the the highest price shown in the poll which has received votes. Nor would additional gas taxes, which are regressive anyway.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Perknose


OP, welcome to 2008. There is no more cheap gas.

Sorry.

Maybe, maybe not. However the current oil price spike looks quite similar to past oil spikes. It will probably come crashing down sometime. The question is when and how much...

 

[GRIFFIN1]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Perknose


OP, welcome to 2008. There is no more cheap gas.

Sorry.

Maybe, maybe not. However the current oil price spike looks quite similar to past oil spikes. It will probably come crashing down sometime. The question is when and how much...

Lets just hope oil prices come crashing down before our societies and governments come crashing down.

 

[Jiggz]

Whoever voted for lower gas prices are still not out in the open! Wake up and smell the new prices of gas. Like gas vapor it just keeps coming up. I hope the stupid gov't does not try to interfere, instead will come up with R&D for alternative fuel, improve mass transit system and improve car mpg's to at least 75 MPG. In this and only in this way can we get off the middle eastern oil. We need to GTFO of middle eastern oil so this Al Qaeda, Iranian, and Venezuelan arrogance can be put to a stop. I sincerely believe it's only a matter of time and probably sooner if the Environmental Nazi's stays the fvck of the way of progress!

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: Jiggz
Whoever voted for lower gas prices are still not out in the open! Wake up and smell the new prices of gas. Like gas vapor it just keeps coming up. I hope the stupid gov't does not try to interfere, instead will come up with R&D for alternative fuel, improve mass transit system and improve car mpg's to at least 75 MPG. In this and only in this way can we get off the middle eastern oil. We need to GTFO of middle eastern oil so this Al Qaeda, Iranian, and Venezuelan arrogance can be put to a stop. I sincerely believe it's only a matter of time and probably sooner if the Environmental Nazi's stays the fvck of the way of progress!

Mass transit is great for the small percentage of the populace that lives in large cities. Most of America's population lives in suburban or rural settings.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yup, that's the main "problem" right there. This goes back to the controversial Unsustainability argument. It is currently impossible for the People of Earth to all share the lifestyle that exists in the US and other Western Nations. As such, the only way to bring the whole Planet up to that lifestyle is to dramatically change the supports of the Western Lifestyle. Of course there is another alternative to that though, that is to keep the rest of the People on the Planet down. The second option really isn't an option though, at least not in the longterm.

All we have to do to keep them down is have WW3 - when the oil from the Middle East is cut off everyone is going back to the 19th century. Our way of life ends the moment the supply lines are severed.

 

[trenchfoot]

the energy industries who rely on oil are doing their very best to keep oil prices onward and upward. it's their job.

that being said, it's in their best interests to control any future alternative energy sources just as they are now controlling oil. in this scenario, no matter what alternative energy sources, like the idiotic but highly profitable present use of using a source of food for making ethanol, the folks that have a stake in exploiting alternative energy sources will look at this effort only as a way of making a profit by any means possible, which means no matter what alternative energy source is made available, the purpose of developing it will be to get rich and not to "get green" or "save the earth" or "make energy cheap".

therefore, looking at all of this from a skeptical point of view, any alternative energy source developed by those that have the means to develop it and control its use will not have any incentive whatsoever to drive the cost of energy (including oil) down. just like the aforementioned use of corn for producing ethanol, the energy industries will make sure that any new alternative energy source will ride along with oil cost-wise and merely make available for themselves another way to make a killing on producing energy.

capitalism at it's finest folks.

edit - syntax

 

[BoomerD]

Fuck that higher prices bullshit...I'd LOVE to go back to the days of 30 cent/gallon gasoline...before the Arab Embargo of 1973.
(of course, I really don't want to go back to 1973 wages again if everything else stays the same price it is now!)

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Unfortunately, with the respective rise of the Chinese and Indian economies, lowering consumption of oil here in the US will not necessarily drive prices down much, if at all.

The continued expansion of those other two economies will likely MORE than offset any national conservation efforts that are politically feasible here.

Price ain't going south, son.

For a broad array of solid reasons, though, we do need to (take a time machine back to the first oil crisis in the 70's and) institute a saner, more balanced and more forward looking national energy policy that walks us a few steps back from Mother Oil.

Only the dimbulb, chest pounding rubes can't see this.

OP, welcome to 2008. There is no more cheap gas.

Sorry.

I'll largely agree, except to say that reducing consumption at home could reduce price in the relative short term. Both the supply and demand curves are near vertical, meaning that relatively small shifts in either cause radical changes in price... In the longer term, you're right, the price will continue to go up over a historical timeframe because the world demand curve is shifting to the right, more demand.

What it amounts to is that even though developing nations' citizens have much lower incomes than those in the US, they get much greater utility from the petroleum they buy. They commute and travel much shorter distances with conveyances that get much better mpg- motorbikes vs SUV's, 100mpg vs 10mpg. They also walk, a lot, and use transit more. Their populations are also huge, so small increases in prosperity and willingness to buy petroleum lead to large demand increases.

They also have a huge supply of dollars, due to decades of trade imbalance, and they're not shy about spending them as the value continues to fall... which is just another reason that the price will continue to climb, a reason nobody wants to address...

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: Hafen

As it is now, we've invested little in technology and infrastructure, and instead built cities and the economy based around cheap gas and oil.

That's the main problem. America bought into the suburban model that uses way way way too much fuel, exacerbated by enormous vehicles, while Europe had advantages like better planning and a compact continent that didn't give them much choice. Now we are screwed.

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: sandorski

It is currently impossible for the People of Earth to all share the lifestyle that exists in the US and other Western Nations.

Actually there is plenty of resources for everyone on earth to have a 1st world lifestyle. While America is rich in natural resources, other countries such as Japan, Israel, Taiwan, etc, are extremely poor in natural resources, and their economies are very strong. Other countries, particularly in Africa, are extremely rich in natural resources yet their populations are destitute. When people are poor, generally the problem is government.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
$6 here myself. Oil will come down and so will gas, but I agree with above. Tax the flying fuck out of it and develop alternative transportation, energy, and infrastructure.

:thumbsup: but I said $8 for the exact same reasons.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
$6 here myself. Oil will come down and so will gas, but I agree with above. Tax the flying fuck out of it and develop alternative transportation, energy, and infrastructure.

Do it slowly (so consumers can sell their gas guzzlers or move to areas with better public transportation) and predictably