Which OS

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HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
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Originally posted by: scttgrd
Ok, so what is the most secure and useable OS.

Security is a sliding scale, as far MS products products go, that's based on how a system is used and what's been done to protect said system. Useablity is also just as esoteric. I can assume that when I boot I can do what I want to easily, without undo hardship and in a secure way.

I'm sure this repsonse reads as overly simplistic, but without extensive knowledge about all available options, how could anyone do more than state his opinion?

 

LuckyTaxi

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,044
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XP if you play games. This question is too broad. I'd run linux/bsd on my webservers.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
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I've heard Mandriva Linux is good.

As far as Windows operating systems, I have to say Vista. It's easy to use and with UAC and functional user accounts, probably the most secure desktop OS to come out of Microsoft since people start putting their computers on public networks.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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I'll preface this again. Linux is a very good OS, but let's be brutally honest. When you put it up against the criteria of the original post, it does not fit well to what he is looking for.

The OP's criteria were very generic and I believe Linux fits just fine. All that was asked for is user friendly and secure, in general those two are mutually exclusive features so there has to be some trade off. I would say that Vista and Linux are very close and which you choose depends on a lot of other variables that aren't mentioned at all by the OP.

Not true, while many 11b/g cards may work fine, most 11a/n cards do not. And a "bit of work" is a bit of an understatement. I don't know of a single Wireless card that doesn't work under XP, and far more work under Vista than under Linux. Certainly, any wireless board produced in the past year and a half works under Vista.

Since just about everyone has a G card these days it's not a real issue yet, as N cards get more popular it might be but I know hardware support is always being worked on so it's impossible to tell how much of a problem it'll be by then. And other issues come into play like the fact that the wireless UI in XP is utter crap, using wifi on Linux is much simpler with something like NetworkManager.

But often with reduced functionality. My dad's Canon won't be able to use the easy transfer ability of that lets him push a single button on the camera to have it all automatically copy. My Nikon D-SLR under Linux means I can't use my laptop to control my camera. Two, very mainstream cameras that would lose functionality under Linux

The easy transfer thing shouldn't be an issue because plugging in the camera will pop up the Gnome transfer stuff, it's different but it should work. I have no idea about the control stuff for your Nikon but again it all comes down to what's important to you. I really don't think I'd have even noticed that I couldn't control my camera in Linux because I can't think of a reason that I'd want to do that.

Not all games are on either the 360 or PS3, and of course, we're not talking about consoles. We are talking about computer operating systems. So having Bioshock on a console is in no way a tick mark in the Linux is better column.

Totally ignoring the fact that I said Bioshock does run in WINE, the Bioshock requirement was added randomly by some other poster, the OP didn't even mention games at all.

But more importantly, anything requiring Wine to work immediately removes it from the "ease of use" qualification of the original post.

IMO anything requiring Windows to work removes it from the "ease of use qualification" but since games weren't included in the OP's requirements it's irrelevant.

Any time you add something like this, you are adding another layer of complexity that simply makes things less easy to deal with, when they work at all. Of course, in the Windows World, you could accomplish much the same thing by installing VMWARE and then Linux on a virtual machine.

Not really, WINE's not perfect but it's a very thin layer and nowhere near as huge or limiting as a full emulator like VMWare. It's more like the POSIX or OS/2 layers in Windows than Linux+VMWare.

If I put Ubuntu on the secretary's machine at work, and gave her a blank check to buy the software she needed to do the job she'd be crying before the day was done.

And you'd be considered retarded by anyone with common sense. Why would you tell any employee to buy their own software for work? You wouldn't, you'd give them a preconfigured machine with the software they're supposed to use and in that case she'd likely be fine.

WINE and Cedaga are cheap hacks to run software that wasn't meant to be run. Most people don't know what Linux is, much less how to get it to run non-native software.

A lot of people don't know what Windows is, I've had lots of support calls from people saying they're running "Microsoft XP" when they're talking about Office. Ironically those people are the best candidates for Linux because they already have no clue what's going on so it's much easier to just hand them something and show them how to use it without any knowledge about the other system getting in the way.

As far as hardware goes... I have 4 winmodems, 3 USB wireless adapters, and 1 PCI wireless adapter that couldn't even be hacked to work under Linux, much less plug and play. I never got around to trying my printers or my somewhat obscure scanner.

And I've got 6 machines of 4 different architectures and they all work fine. Granted I've only got 2 wifi adapters but they both work fine too.

I've never quite understood why WINE didn't merge in some of the QEMU/KVM technology to run the windows
applications in more of a VM / sandbox that has better isolation from the LINUX host.

Because they don't want isolation, their goal is to make the win32 apps as integrated with the rest of the system as possible.
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
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It's been pointed out that I've added requirements in addition to the OP. Fair enough. As I said, Linux is a good OS and if being able to use a lot of commercial software/games isn't something you care about then most of what I have said doesn't matter. I just assumed it was a consideration since it's important for me and most folks I know.

While word processing, email and web browsing may be about it for many users, I'm not sure that OP wanted to limit it to just that.

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Since just about everyone has a G card these days it's not a real issue yet, as N cards get more popular it might be but I know hardware support is always being worked on so it's impossible to tell how much of a problem it'll be by then. And other issues come into play like the fact that the wireless UI in XP is utter crap, using wifi on Linux is much simpler with something like NetworkManager.
More and more people are uisng 11n every day. As I said, it's gotten better but it's still pretty problematic.

The easy transfer thing shouldn't be an issue because plugging in the camera will pop up the Gnome transfer stuff, it's different but it should work. I have no idea about the control stuff for your Nikon but again it all comes down to what's important to you. I really don't think I'd have even noticed that I couldn't control my camera in Linux because I can't think of a reason that I'd want to do that.

Here's the problem, if the person in question is very technophobic like my Dad, the Gnome Transfer stuff is going to drive him nuts since he just wants to be able to press the button on the camera like he does now. On the other hand, the Tech advanced folks like myself will not like losing the camera control functions.

Btw, a reason I use the control ability is it allows me to set up my camera on a tripod and make changes to exposure and f-stop settings without having to touch the camera. It's exceptionally useful when doing macro and low light work and really helps when taking photo's of things like the Moon.

Totally ignoring the fact that I said Bioshock does run in WINE, the Bioshock requirement was added randomly by some other poster, the OP didn't even mention games at all.
You said it "works to an extent." That implied that it didn't fully work. Which as far as I'm concerned means it doesn't work well enough.

IMO anything requiring Windows to work removes it from the "ease of use qualification" but since games weren't included in the OP's requirements it's irrelevant.
True, games weren't included, but To your average user, getting many windows apps and not just games aren't exactly easy to do.

Then again, if being able to run mainstream, commercial software isn't a requirement Wine doesn't matter.

In my experience though, people don't want to use free linux alternatives like GIMP to edit photos. They either want to use something like Photoshop Elements, which is easier to use by an order of magnitude, or the software that came with their camera.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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I just assumed it was a consideration since it's important for me and most folks I know.

Outside of work and besides games most folks I know don't care about specific pieces of software. They care about certain actions like being able to browse the web, read their email, IM their friends, etc and the software they use doesn't matter as long as it works. Of course if someone said "I need to be able to profesionally process digital photos." then I'm going to start talking about Windows and OS X because that's where the most supported software is going to be.

There is no one answer, it all depends on what you plan to do and sadly most people can't even answer that question.

Here's the problem, if the person in question is very technophobic like my Dad, the Gnome Transfer stuff is going to drive him nuts since he just wants to be able to press the button on the camera like he does now. On the other hand, the Tech advanced folks like myself will not like losing the camera control functions.

Then he shouldn't be using a computer, it's really not that scary.

Btw, a reason I use the control ability is it allows me to set up my camera on a tripod and make changes to exposure and f-stop settings without having to touch the camera. It's exceptionally useful when doing macro and low light work and really helps when taking photo's of things like the Moon.

I'm sure there's good reasons for it but I'm not into photography so I don't know them.

You said it "works to an extent." That implied that it didn't fully work. Which as far as I'm concerned means it doesn't work well enough.

I took that from the winehq page but IMO everything only "works to an extent" since I make a living fixing it all. And even if it's not 100% functional you can't make a judgement about it without knowing what doesn't work. If the problem exists in something that you'll never use then there's no problem as far as you're concerned.

In my experience though, people don't want to use free linux alternatives like GIMP to edit photos. They either want to use something like Photoshop Elements, which is easier to use by an order of magnitude, or the software that came with their camera.

Which is why you need to talk to the person before anything else. But that's totally off topic anyway, the thread wasn't even about "What OS should I give my mother?".
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Outside of work and besides games most folks I know don't care about specific pieces of software. They care about certain actions like being able to browse the web, read their email, IM their friends, etc and the software they use doesn't matter as long as it works. Of course if someone said "I need to be able to profesionally process digital photos." then I'm going to start talking about Windows and OS X because that's where the most supported software is going to be.

There is no one answer, it all depends on what you plan to do and sadly most people can't even answer that question.
Obviously we have a very different circle of friends and colleagues. Most people I deal with want specific software. They Want Office, they want Photoshop then there are the large amount of friends that want to run games.

But, as I mentioned last post, I made the assumption that the OP meant being able to do so since most people I know have that requirement. If it's not a requirement then Linux is as good a choice as any.

Then he shouldn't be using a computer, it's really not that scary.
No, it's not that scary, but let's face it. It's almost a requirement these days to be able to use one.

 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
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Where I work, most people own and use macs for personal use and use free software as much as possible on our work desktops we have windows, mac, and linux (you get to pick). At my last job the average user ran linux on their desktop. The job before that was a 100% MS shop, everything servers, desktops, etc. All of them were perfect for the job at hand.

The only friends I have that still use windows are the avid gamers. I personally prefer my 360 for gaming and do not plan to PC game ever again (50 inch LCD way better then my 20 inch LCD, couch and laying down way better then chair). My mom requires simply a web browser and flash. I will be moving her to mac on her next computer. She loves mine. The only things she ever does is check email via web browser, and play games via web browser. As I've pointed out before, my grandma used linux for a long time without any issues. She even has a digial camera (cannon something or another). My wife uses xp at work and linux at home on a ibm thinkpad. My bjj coach uses a macbook pro for his buisness.

I can go on and on with people who find linux or mac PERFECTLY suited to what they need a computer for who are not technical users, but average users trying to do average things. The point being it's about what you want to do, not what you think the world wants to do. I could do my job on windows, it just would cost more money, have a steeper learning curve for me, and require a lot of hacks (imho).
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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No, it's not that scary, but let's face it. It's almost a requirement these days to be able to use one.

That's my point, if he's not willing to take a few minutes to learn how to use the photo import software instead of the one button thing then maybe he shouldn't be using a computer to process his images. He took the time to learn how to use the camera, right?
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
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Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
Originally posted by: Smilin
Get Microsoft Mojave FTW!

http://www.mojaveexperiment.com

wow... never expected MS would go this low to promote Vista...

I think it's pretty funny. I'm betting a lot of people on the Vista rant threads here would fall for the same. Vista has more perception problems than real problems. Partly due to how low *Apple* has gone when bending the truth like a pretzel in their commercials.

Face it, Vista meets all the OPs requirements. Someone earlier said it pretty well:

Originally posted by: ultra laser
Run vista on a limited account with UAC, DEP, and a solid anti-virus program enabled. The anti-virus keeps malware off your computer, while UAC, DEP, and a limited account keep malware from doing any damage in the event it slips past your anti-virus.

In terms of user friendliness, Vista is great. In most cases you can just set it up and it will do all the work for you.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
wow... never expected MS would go this low to promote Vista...

I take it you find those Pepsi/Coke blind taste tests offensive too?

Shh! ... he's never used Vista and doesn't know we've secretly switched his regular coffee with taster's choice.
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
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Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
Originally posted by: Smilin
Get Microsoft Mojave FTW!

http://www.mojaveexperiment.com

wow... never expected MS would go this low to promote Vista...

They should have gone even lower considering the intellectual chops on display. Come on dude, anyone who can go from "Somebody told me to hate it, so I hate it!" and "Gosh, I guess a 0 describes something I don't have a clue about!", to eye-popping satisfaction after poking at Vista for 5-minutes deserves being owned. ;)

MS should have jumped the professional nose-flipper crowd a long time ago, and just like this.

 

scttgrd

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
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I don't know about that, but maybe it's the fact that DHCP and the like have been implemented on a greater scale than ever before. It's not that users notice so much just yet, but as media shift toward the digital access is it helping or hurting competition. Do you have the same access you had to your paid for media as before. What if you reformat? What happens to the liscenses for the media you purchased once a company has decided to change the strategy? Do you get a refund when you no longer are allowed a liscense? From past exprience you are SOL.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: scttgrd
I don't know about that, but maybe it's the fact that DHCP and the like have been implemented on a greater scale than ever before. It's not that users notice so much just yet, but as media shift toward the digital access is it helping or hurting competition. Do you have the same access you had to your paid for media as before. What if you reformat? What happens to the liscenses for the media you purchased once a company has decided to change the strategy? Do you get a refund when you no longer are allowed a liscense? From past exprience you are SOL.

I think you mean HDCP, not DHCP...
 

nerp

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,865
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I don't buy protected content, so I'm not worried about losing any access to my media.

There ARE media outlets that link your digitally protected content to a user account. Like iTunes. You can format your machine and as long as you remember your account you should be able to re-download your purchased media.

DRM will be an issue for all OSs, not just MS ones, if you're buying protected content.
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
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Originally posted by: scttgrd
I don't know about that, but maybe it's the fact that DHCP and the like have been implemented on a greater scale than ever before. It's not that users notice so much just yet, but as media shift toward the digital access is it helping or hurting competition. Do you have the same access you had to your paid for media as before. What if you reformat? What happens to the liscenses for the media you purchased once a company has decided to change the strategy? Do you get a refund when you no longer are allowed a liscense? From past exprience you are SOL.

You're starting from the premise that content providers are out to screw you, either now or sometime in the near future. These folks have no interest in droves of pissed off customers, bad-mouthing them to high-heaven and burning up customer service channels.

 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
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I am going to have to agree with Griffinhart on wireless PC Cards (PCMCIA) on Ubuntu. They do not plug and play well across various networks and usually take a reboot to connect right. It is about at the same level as OS/2 Warp in ease of use (Warp was not wireless - we had our first wireless card when Warp came out - AT&T/NCR 2Mbps cards - saw one in a cabinet recently).

The advantage of Ubuntu, security is on by default on most stuff. As a non-90+% OS in the consumer market, security through obscurity is a benefit. My mobile laptop that I carry is an old, low $ pentium, which will run Xubuntu all day long. If it gets trashed, easy to rebuild.

PS - Nothinman and Griffinhart do have different circles of friends. I have both. My mom and her friends are like Nothinman's (except Mom did need Office and one of the graphic apps - had to buy her a Vista Lappy just recently just for that.) About 25% of my friends are in media, so need very specific apps and it is XP only, Vista only, or MAC only depending on what suites they use. 25% are PC gamers. The newer group really only cares if GemCAD or GemXRay work. Grrr... Vista does not support the DOS versions like XP does (WINE works for the Windows version - have not found any way of getting the DOS versions to run in Ubuntu.) The last 25% could use Linux.

BTW, this quote
If I put Ubuntu on the secretary's machine at work, and gave her a blank check to buy the software she needed to do the job she'd be crying before the day was done.
If you do that, you are not doing your job. This is the job of IT. The secretary was not hired as an IT person. We provide the tools for folks to do the job we hired them for and assist them to get there. That has been one of my main arguments for years on why we needed to spend money on server space so My Documents could be redirected to a server. No AA/Sect, should be responsible for running a tape backup or backup schedule on important data because it was in their documents folder (or be aware that we are backing it up!) It just gets done. Not ideal, but automagic for the user if they use the defaults (and they usually do - it is a little bit of knowledge that starts getting dangerous ;) ). How to use the tools provided is good, but being IT is why we get paid.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
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Oh, and best OS? C/PM. Not networking, so safest. Adama would approve. ;)

ps - until Novell screwed it up. Original Netware was based off of C/PM IIRC. Pre-DOS.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
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Originally posted by: gsellis
BTW, this quote
If I put Ubuntu on the secretary's machine at work, and gave her a blank check to buy the software she needed to do the job she'd be crying before the day was done.
If you do that, you are not doing your job. This is the job of IT. The secretary was not hired as an IT person. We provide the tools for folks to do the job we hired them for and assist them to get there. That has been one of my main arguments for years on why we needed to spend money on server space so My Documents could be redirected to a server. No AA/Sect, should be responsible for running a tape backup or backup schedule on important data because it was in their documents folder (or be aware that we are backing it up!) It just gets done. Not ideal, but automagic for the user if they use the defaults (and they usually do - it is a little bit of knowledge that starts getting dangerous ;) ). How to use the tools provided is good, but being IT is why we get paid.

The things you mention are indeed in the realm of IT. Being able to just buy some software to do a secretaries job shouldn't require an IT staff though. These are "Personal" computers.

A secretary should be able to power up a PC and install some software. If they can't then user friendliness is very poor. You can do this just fine on Windows and OSX.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,018
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Originally posted by: gsellis


BTW, this quote
If I put Ubuntu on the secretary's machine at work, and gave her a blank check to buy the software she needed to do the job she'd be crying before the day was done.
If you do that, you are not doing your job. This is the job of IT. The secretary was not hired as an IT person.

Are you guys being purposely obtuse? I used that as an example of an everyday person who isn't into tech, and what their experience would be like using something other than Windows. The fact is the world shops at BestBuy, Circuit City, and Walmart. I think many of you forget that there's a world outside of Anandtech, and Arstechnica where people really do shop at local bigbox stores, and have no idea what WINE is much less Linux. They buy their Antivirus in a retail box, and get their hardware fixed by the Geek Squad.

When someone gives the requirement of an easy to use PC, I assume they mean the lowest common denominator. I don't know anyone in real life who could get by with Linux. They'd decide they want to use MS Office, buy a copy from BJs, then try to install it in Ubuntu and wonder why nothing is working. I could setup Linux for somebody, but I know I'd get an endless stream of calls asking why this or that software/hardware isn't working. The only people that would work for is the most limited users(my 75yr old mother). For everyone else it would be constant headache.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
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A secretary should be able to power up a PC and install some software. If they can't then user friendliness is very poor. You can do this just fine on Windows and OSX.

And most of the secretaries that I've known can't or are at least too scared to try even on Windows.