Um, you ARE paying for a license to play the game, if that's what the license says. All the small legal print isn't phony.
Um, you ARE paying for a license to play the game, if that's what the license says. All the small legal print isn't phony.
Says the company. It's not up to them to decide how I use my property. Anything I buy is my property. EULAs are not legal documents. They are merely requests that you do what they say while pretending to have legal backing. As a result, many, many users mistakenly believe they have to obey the EULA or else they will face legal consequences. A game company does not have the power to do such a thing. Not to mention that many stores have a no return policy on purchased software and you can not read the EULA without purchasing and installing the software. That further reduces the validity of the EULA.
WildW
Senior member
For those who think that lending a game to a friend = piracy, can you please point out the point in the following scenario at which the law is broken:
I buy a game with a two player mode, I don't know, "Mortal Calibur 4".
I invite round a friend who does not own the game and we play two player mode on my console.
I briefly leave the room to grab a snack, leaving him playing the game on his own.
I come back and watch him playing on his own for a bit while I eat my sandwich, even though I could be playing.
The next weekend I take the same game around to the same friend's house and play two player mode with him on his console.
I let him play single player mode while I watch, in his own house, on his console, when he hasn't even paid for it. The swine.
I leave the room to phone for a pizza. He's still playing.
His housemate comes downstairs and plays two player mode with him, and I'm not even there now.
The pizza place can't deliver, they're busy and I have to fetch it myself . . . oh god, I have to leave the house and leave him there with the game still running. I leave strict instructions that he should really stop because he hasn't paid for the game. I'll only be a few minutes though.
Much later after returning with pizza I go home, and leave the game behind. Maybe I forget to take it with me, or perhaps I have the audacity to allow him to borrow the game.
I buy a game with a two player mode, I don't know, "Mortal Calibur 4".
I invite round a friend who does not own the game and we play two player mode on my console.
I briefly leave the room to grab a snack, leaving him playing the game on his own.
I come back and watch him playing on his own for a bit while I eat my sandwich, even though I could be playing.
The next weekend I take the same game around to the same friend's house and play two player mode with him on his console.
I let him play single player mode while I watch, in his own house, on his console, when he hasn't even paid for it. The swine.
I leave the room to phone for a pizza. He's still playing.
His housemate comes downstairs and plays two player mode with him, and I'm not even there now.
The pizza place can't deliver, they're busy and I have to fetch it myself . . . oh god, I have to leave the house and leave him there with the game still running. I leave strict instructions that he should really stop because he hasn't paid for the game. I'll only be a few minutes though.
Much later after returning with pizza I go home, and leave the game behind. Maybe I forget to take it with me, or perhaps I have the audacity to allow him to borrow the game.
Golgatha
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2003
- 12,453
- 1,164
- 126
Not really. Only you had to put forth any effort to change formats, which I do think is fine. Users transcoding formats using an original they purchased is fine. However, downloading a port of a game, which takes substantial resources create, should not be free. I do feel if you buy one version of a game, say SF4 on XBox 360 or PS3, that you ought to get a hefty discount for the PC version or vice versa. It would be a nice change if the IP holders treated us with that much respect, but I'm not holding my breath for that day to come about.
Golgatha
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2003
- 12,453
- 1,164
- 126
I'll run with this one. I think the multiplatform question is much like the US vs Europe toaster. You'll have to buy a power adapter and/or a correct plug type to use the toaster in both locations, but it's still cheaper than buying a toaster to use both places as you already own the majority of the necessary products needed to make toast. It would be nice if the toaster making company made it easy to order the parts from them at a discount, so you could use your toaster where you wanted to, but most don't or won't so you go looking for other ways to make your toaster make the toast you want.
Golgatha
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2003
- 12,453
- 1,164
- 126
I'd be in small claims court so fast it would make their head spin if they banned all my games due to a key that I thought was legitimately purchased, but turned out to be pirated. This is assuming they didn't unban my games within a reasonable amount of time, say 1 month or so to gather evidence and make a decision.
You are not buying anything. It's really more like renting a it, but without a time limit. If you rented a car you wouldn't think it unreasonable that they impose some restrictions (like no racing), would you? How about the fact that the rental car company will not agree to sell you the car, only rent it? It is after all, their car, and they can set whatever terms they want, and you can either agree or not rent it at all.
Except I'm not renting anything, I'm buying it. I didn't go to a store and rent the game, I bought it. No fancy writing from some smug company is going to tell me what to do with my property. It's no different from buying anything else and then having the company try and tell you after the fact a whole list of stuff you can and can not(mostly can not) do with what you just bought. Video game companies and software companies in general try very hard to convince people that software is different from normal products and if you buy it the company can control what you do with it.
nitromullet
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2004
- 9,031
- 36
- 91
I actually think I will be hitting up the Attorney General. Both Valve and I are in WA state, so it seems like a good bet, plus it's free. Amazon is also based out of Seattle, so the WA state AG should be familiar with the concept of previously purchased digital content getting revoked.
Honestly though... While in principle the whole issue annoys me, in practice it reaches a point where my time, effort, and sanity become worth more than the money I spent on the games. I've already replaced some of them pretty cheaply as it is.
nitromullet
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2004
- 9,031
- 36
- 91
Just because most products are sold, doesn't mean that every product is sold the same way. Software frequently has a different type of 'sale' - a licensing agreement.
When you buy a DVD, there's a restriction on it that you can only use it for home viewing. You can't legally play it for an auditorium. That doesn't apply to other things you buy; if you want to take the cool piece of art you bought and show it to the auditorium, you can - but that has built-ins restrictions too, depending on who keeps the copyright, you usually can't take the piece of art you own and make a thousand reproductions of it to give the people at the auditorium, you are limited to enjoying the one you bought.
Some software license agreements go too far and violate the law; you have a right to make backups no matter what the license agreement says. But most of it is liegal.
You sound childish and ignorant when you just write angrily that you won't be told what you can and can't do. That doesn't leave much point to the 'discussion' of the law.
I understand the emotion - there's an enjoyment to 'ownership' and the freedom to do what you want, but that's not the whole story.
Imagine if you contract with an architect to deisgn you a house, but the terms include that he retains the rights to the design so that you can't go and use it in other houses.
Do you think in that case that you can just say it's your house and you'll use its design any way you want?
Unfortunately, the law and the morality of the issue are against you, but you have the ability omre and more, as technology advances, to ignore them.
That hastens the shift away from PC's to consoles, and it has a harmful impact on the PC gaming industry as theft reduces revenue which reduces the quality and quantity of games.
Unfortunately, it is all too easy to ignore the law and pirate software. It's my experience that when most people are presented with an opportunity to take advantage of someone or something without a chance of being caught, they'll do it.
It's a shame that developers are forced to try and have such incredibly strict guidelines to ensure that they turn a profit for PC games. The honest consumers get a product with increasingly strict guidelines and usage rules while the pirate gets whatever they want for free. This all leads to lower and lower budget put into PC titles because after all, the less money you put into something, the less it hurts you if it fails. This is precisely why more PC games are console ports than real PC games. Eventually developers will say screw it, the PC just isn't worth developing for at all. Several developers have already taken that step.
There will never be a reduction in DRM and anti piracy implementation. It is only going to get worse and worse sadly. One specific example comes to mind. World of Goo. The little Indie title that was a major hit. Relatively low budget game made by a very tiny development team that was extremely fun and extremely polished. They gave us gamers the benefit of the doubt and put no kind of anti piracy in it what so ever to try and make us happy that we weren't being treated like the criminals we all keep claiming not to be. The game was only $20 too. The game ended up having something like a 90% piracy rate. I'm sure that developer will never trust PC gamers to do the right thing ever again.
I am totally against losing rights as a consumer and being told what to do with what I buy, but I completely understand why game companies do it.
It's a shame that developers are forced to try and have such incredibly strict guidelines to ensure that they turn a profit for PC games. The honest consumers get a product with increasingly strict guidelines and usage rules while the pirate gets whatever they want for free. This all leads to lower and lower budget put into PC titles because after all, the less money you put into something, the less it hurts you if it fails. This is precisely why more PC games are console ports than real PC games. Eventually developers will say screw it, the PC just isn't worth developing for at all. Several developers have already taken that step.
There will never be a reduction in DRM and anti piracy implementation. It is only going to get worse and worse sadly. One specific example comes to mind. World of Goo. The little Indie title that was a major hit. Relatively low budget game made by a very tiny development team that was extremely fun and extremely polished. They gave us gamers the benefit of the doubt and put no kind of anti piracy in it what so ever to try and make us happy that we weren't being treated like the criminals we all keep claiming not to be. The game was only $20 too. The game ended up having something like a 90% piracy rate. I'm sure that developer will never trust PC gamers to do the right thing ever again.
I am totally against losing rights as a consumer and being told what to do with what I buy, but I completely understand why game companies do it.
I answered all "no", and I'll go further to say that "piracy" the way people normally define it isn't morally bad, either.
One of the few things we can do is to speak out against it and try to keep the culture against it, instead of the 'anything goes' culture being free to rule the forums.
Between piracy and the profitability of subscriptions, perhaps MMO's will continue to increase for PC's, displacing piratable offline games.
There will never be a reduction in DRM and anti piracy implementation. It is only going to get worse and worse sadly. One specific example comes to mind. World of Goo. The little Indie title that was a major hit. Relatively low budget game made by a very tiny development team that was extremely fun and extremely polished. They gave us gamers the benefit of the doubt and put no kind of anti piracy in it what so ever to try and make us happy that we weren't being treated like the criminals we all keep claiming not to be. The game was only $20 too. The game ended up having something like a 90% piracy rate. I'm sure that developer will never trust PC gamers to do the right thing ever again.
I am totally against losing rights as a consumer and being told what to do with what I buy, but I completely understand why game companies do it.[/quote]
FWIW I bought World of Goo.
Maybe it'll help to get people to remember buying games = helping more games get made.
nitromullet
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2004
- 9,031
- 36
- 91
To bring an old thread back from the dead, I wanted to update on my issue with Valve, and my Steam account...
As I mentioned in this thread, I opened a case with the Washington State Attorney General about this. Well, the ATG attempted to contact Valve twice with no response from them, and a few weeks after the second attempt the ATG sent me the following email:
...so, I re-opened my ticket with Valve, pasted the response from the WA ATG into the ticket, and asked Valve what I had to do to get a fair review of the issue... They responded by re-activating my account. I'm assuming that the proper people within Valve never actually received the notice from the ATG.
I'm pleased that Valve finally decided to do what I consider was the right thing. I'm a little disappointed that it took so much time and that it required an escalate to the ATG. However, Valve makes awesome games, and I'm still a fan.
As I mentioned in this thread, I opened a case with the Washington State Attorney General about this. Well, the ATG attempted to contact Valve twice with no response from them, and a few weeks after the second attempt the ATG sent me the following email:
...so, I re-opened my ticket with Valve, pasted the response from the WA ATG into the ticket, and asked Valve what I had to do to get a fair review of the issue... They responded by re-activating my account. I'm assuming that the proper people within Valve never actually received the notice from the ATG.
I'm pleased that Valve finally decided to do what I consider was the right thing. I'm a little disappointed that it took so much time and that it required an escalate to the ATG. However, Valve makes awesome games, and I'm still a fan.
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ibex333
Diamond Member
- Mar 26, 2005
- 4,094
- 123
- 106
Where's the poll at YO? ; )
1)Is it piracy to let a friend borrow a game?
Absolutely not. It's MY game. I paid for it, therefore I can let anyone I know do what they want with it. I can even rent it out to them because it's MY game to rent out, and I don't want to hear any legal rights bs about that.
2)Is it piracy to download and emulate an old long lost console game that you once paid full price for?
Off course not. If the game is indeed very old. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking people still buy it, because most such games are not even available for sale or only available for sale used for ridiculous sums of money. Even if these games were to be sold, which they are not, the company would make too little money to bother. No, it's not piracy to download and emulate even if you never owned the game IMHO. Boosting a car is illegal, but what if there was one standing in your driveway with keys in it, and no license plates?
3)Is it piracy to burn backup copies of games you already own?
No. It's MY game damnit. I paid for it, there fore I can do whatever I want with it, except distributing mass copies for money.
4)Is it piracy to purchase a game for one platform, but download and play it on another?(As long as you don't play more than one copy at the same time to satisfy the fact that you only bought the game once)
Yes, that's straight out piracy, but I'd do it anyway, because it's retarded to pay for the same game twice just so u can play it on a different platform.
5)Is it piracy to let a friend use your Steam account to play games?
No. It's MY account, therefore it's my right to let anyone use it. Fuck steam and what they may think on the matter.
6)Yes, that's piracy. If I want to let a friend play a game I own, I can simply lend my game to him. But then again, it's nobody's business if I copied my game and let my friend play it. I didn't do it for monetary profit, therefore it's considered OK by me. (Which doesn't change the fact that this is piracy ; ) )
1)Is it piracy to let a friend borrow a game?
Absolutely not. It's MY game. I paid for it, therefore I can let anyone I know do what they want with it. I can even rent it out to them because it's MY game to rent out, and I don't want to hear any legal rights bs about that.
2)Is it piracy to download and emulate an old long lost console game that you once paid full price for?
Off course not. If the game is indeed very old. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking people still buy it, because most such games are not even available for sale or only available for sale used for ridiculous sums of money. Even if these games were to be sold, which they are not, the company would make too little money to bother. No, it's not piracy to download and emulate even if you never owned the game IMHO. Boosting a car is illegal, but what if there was one standing in your driveway with keys in it, and no license plates?
3)Is it piracy to burn backup copies of games you already own?
No. It's MY game damnit. I paid for it, there fore I can do whatever I want with it, except distributing mass copies for money.
4)Is it piracy to purchase a game for one platform, but download and play it on another?(As long as you don't play more than one copy at the same time to satisfy the fact that you only bought the game once)
Yes, that's straight out piracy, but I'd do it anyway, because it's retarded to pay for the same game twice just so u can play it on a different platform.
5)Is it piracy to let a friend use your Steam account to play games?
No. It's MY account, therefore it's my right to let anyone use it. Fuck steam and what they may think on the matter.
6)Yes, that's piracy. If I want to let a friend play a game I own, I can simply lend my game to him. But then again, it's nobody's business if I copied my game and let my friend play it. I didn't do it for monetary profit, therefore it's considered OK by me. (Which doesn't change the fact that this is piracy ; ) )
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
They tried this shit with cars actually. It didn't go well for them. Car manufactures cannot tell you where you can drive your car, what color you paint it, or how you can modify it. They tried to black box you out of everything when computers came along. They tried to void your warranty if you did, and they can't do that either; the burden is on them to prove that your modification directly caused the failure, and they are obligated to continue warrant coverage on issues unrelated to your modifications. If you paid for it, it is yours to do as you please with for personal use, to sell, to loan, etc.
When you pay $60 for your own shrink wrapped copy of the game, you are buying it. You are not borrowing from a authorized rental outlet eg: Blockbuster.
Software is no different regardless of what "the law" says. I do what is right, "the law" be damned.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
Piracy is stealing. Everybody knows when they are deliberately stealing so as to avoid paying for something, it doesn't need to get any more complicated than that. Loaning games, backing up a game you own, downloading a torrent for a game you have a case to but no longer a functioning disc, playing them on an emulator on your iphone or PSP, putting a mod chip in your console, etc. you can do all these things with or without the underlying pretext of stealing.
Anything beyond that, such as Sony's wet dream of going to a medialess pay per view model so you can't buy/sell/trade/loan used games is a blatant abuse of DRM and copyright protection.
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