Which is more popular in healthcare industry: J2EE or .NET

[Schrodinger]

Just trying to learn what any experienced people can share. Hopefully some people that know about the software used in the healthcare industry can chime in. I'd really appreciate it.

I'm wondering which of these technologies is more popular and/or easier to sell in the medical and healthcare industry: J2EE and .NET

Say they are both able to do the job you require. Which would you choose and why?

I've used both but only from programmer standpoint so I can't comment on outside influences and how organizations think of them.

The thing I notice is that the local hospital uses on Windows servers and desktops save for 1 machine (unix server for certian tasks). It kind of defeats the "any platform" feature of J2EE when most hospitals (in Ontario Canada) run Windows networks. I'd like to hear any insight from other areas too.

 

[kamper]

Much as it pains me to say it, you'd probably have a much easier time selling .NET. That's not to say that you couldn't get away with java if you wanted. I work for a company that makes radiology information management software (we're in Kitchener, but so far we sell so far only in the states). We do all our development in java, using mostly open source tools but it's for windows and SQL Server.

From the discussions I've had with those involved in selling the software I get the idea that healthcare orgs more or less demand that you deploy on windows because they don't want to have to learn to integrate a new operating system into their networks. They are also comfortable with SQL Server and I don't think you'd ever sell them a product using an open source database server. The newer breed of application servers (j2ee an .net) aren't yet so entrenched that they have any arbitrary requirements but they do trust microsoft.

I'm pretty new to the industry but from what I can gather alot of the slightly older software, which was the first generation to penetrate deeply into the healthcare info systems, is unix based. I think that stuff was developped more in the c++ world, rather than java/.net.

 

[Schrodinger]

Kamper,

As you know J2EE can run on any platform that the application servers are available for so the healthcare orgs wouldn't really have to learn anything new.

The largest problem I see occuring is that with J2EE they would have to purchase the application server software (I'm not too sure on the costs...I've only used Tomcat for academic usage so far, but I can bet its in the thousands) if you want to deploy a J2EE project. With Windows servers they already have the OS license so it is pretty much free if you want to deploy a windows service & client/server system of some sort, or ASP .NET projects on IIS.

I have no problem using either technologies. I just figured that most admins might see .NET being for "toy"/custom shop whereas J2EE is "true enterprise" sort of thing.

I really want to feel confident with what I go forward pursuing. For some reason I feel (right now) that J2EE is the "safer bet" but who knows.

 

[Schrodinger]

To be honest, for what I want to do, .NET would be much faster in development time.

So I wish I could use it and feel confident, but for some reason I'm worried I would isolate some customers if I -don't- use J2EE.

Then again. If you sell a big $ product to an org, they will typically pay the bucks for the required hardware and software so adding another server would never be a problem. Clients would use web (ASP .NET) and with some tweaking that can output 100% xhtml compliant pages so any browser (and client) could interact with the system.

I'll drive myself insane trying to decide *sigh*

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: Schrodinger
Kamper,

As you know J2EE can run on any platform that the application servers are available for so the healthcare orgs wouldn't really have to learn anything new.

Yes, they have to learn to integrate a new operating system into their network. It's possible that you find an organization that has admins familiar with *nix but if not, they won't take it. They are going to want to be able to remotely administer the server, patch it and regulate who can access it. They won't go for it if they don't already have the in-house tech.

The largest problem I see occuring is that with J2EE they would have to purchase the application server software (I'm not too sure on the costs...I've only used Tomcat for academic usage so far, but I can bet its in the thousands) if you want to deploy a J2EE project. With Windows servers they already have the OS license so it is pretty much free if you want to deploy a windows service & client/server system of some sort, or ASP .NET projects on IIS.

First off:
-Tomcat is not a j2ee server. It's just a servlet container (plus a small directory server).
-Tomcat is made by apache, hence open source, hence free for deployment.
-If you're looking for a full featured, affordable j2ee app server, try JBoss. It's also open source (and it incorporates Tomcat as it's servlet container).

Also, I don't think that the organization will spring for the app server. I can't say that authoritatively but the company that I work for has always been responsible for the entire application and it's licenses. We used to use Weblogic but the cost (hundreds of thousands per year) drove us to JBoss, which we have been quite happy with.

I have no problem using either technologies. I just figured that most admins might see .NET being for "toy"/custom shop whereas J2EE is "true enterprise" sort of thing.

I really want to feel confident with what I go forward pursuing. For some reason I feel (right now) that J2EE is the "safer bet" but who knows.

Again, I can't say for sure but I don't agree with you there. Microsoft has a lot of claws in the healthcare industry and they are well respected. As for application servers, unless the organization has an in-house development team, they probably have no expertise in servers at all. They will look on it as "Microsoft vs. Java", both of which they are likely to respect and hence will accept. .NET is not a toy, it just as relevant as java. It also has the added bonus that it is guaranteed to integrate nicely into their current network, whereas java is pretty much a seperate identity.

 

[Schrodinger]

Kamper thanks for the enlightenment!

As you can see my experience with J2EE is quite limited anways.

I always value your feedback (in this thread and others). You always seem to pop up when I have Java related questions 😀

 

[Schrodinger]

I guess with the J2EE solution they see it as one more thing to learn and worry about (the application server)

Why did you mention new operating system though? You mentioned *nix but I didn't specify that... I mean, they could get an application server for any platform, correct? (kind of confused on that part)

As for the cost of Weblogic: ouch!

Edit: Most of the organizations (hospitals) have full time IT staff here too so I don't think it is THAT big of a deal (there is always someone around). I'm not sure what you meant about the part of "in-house development team".

I would agree .NET would integrate nicely for the majority of them (most hospitals that I know of in Ontario are primarily Windows based)

I'm leaning towards .NET now rofl.
God I just need to pick one :/ I spend too much time thinking "what if" that I'll never even begin working on any ideas.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: kamper

First off:
-Tomcat is not a j2ee server. It's just a servlet container (plus a small directory server).
-Tomcat is made by apache, hence open source, hence free for deployment.
-If you're looking for a full featured, affordable j2ee app server, try JBoss. It's also open source (and it incorporates Tomcat as it's servlet container).

Small nitpick points:
- Actually Tomcat is a J2EE application server, servlets and JSP's are a part of the J2EE spec. It just doesn't do EJB's, among other things.
- JBOSS doesn't include Tomcat anymore, I think they switched to another servlet engine in their newest iteration.

As far as which is more used, I have no idea, I'm in the banking industry where Java has a firm hold. I do know that some hospitals use mainframes for their data storage. Our bank's mainframe actually does some data processing for a small regional hospital nearby.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: AmigaMan

Originally posted by: kamper

First off:
-Tomcat is not a j2ee server. It's just a servlet container (plus a small directory server).
-Tomcat is made by apache, hence open source, hence free for deployment.
-If you're looking for a full featured, affordable j2ee app server, try JBoss. It's also open source (and it incorporates Tomcat as it's servlet container).

Small nitpick points:
- Actually Tomcat is a J2EE application server, servlets and JSP's are a part of the J2EE spec. It just doesn't do EJB's, among other things.
- JBOSS doesn't include Tomcat anymore, I think they switched to another servlet engine in their newest iteration.

As far as which is more used, I have no idea, I'm in the banking industry where Java has a firm hold. I do know that some hospitals use mainframes for their data storage. Our bank's mainframe actually does some data processing for a small regional hospital nearby.

Ok, you got me on the first point. I was thinking it wasn't because it doesn't do EJBs.

From the jboss 4.0 documentation:
http://docs.jboss.org/jbossas/...ide40/ch02.html#d0e930
I'd be surprised if JBoss dumped Tomcat. They control most of the development and it's even listed as a product on their website. Which iteration has stopped using Tomcat?

As for the banking industry, I'm glad to hear java is doing well there. I always imagined that there would be such high quality and security demands that a lot of systems would still be using older, more proven platforms. My online banking is served by a java server but I was surprised when I saw it. My dad develops in house for a very large insurance company and his systems are a .NET/java hybrid.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: Schrodinger
I guess with the J2EE solution they see it as one more thing to learn and worry about (the application server)

Why did you mention new operating system though? You mentioned *nix but I didn't specify that... I mean, they could get an application server for any platform, correct? (kind of confused on that part)

I'm confused now too. Did you have something other than windows or *nix in mind? The point isn't what operating systems the app server will run on. The point is which operating systems will the organization allow into their network.

As for the cost of Weblogic: ouch!

Edit: Most of the organizations (hospitals) have full time IT staff here too so I don't think it is THAT big of a deal (there is always someone around). I'm not sure what you meant about the part of "in-house development team".

I don't think you should count on the IT staff managing your application server for you. That is largely a developper's job anyhow. You can only sell your software for so much. The real money comes from long term support contracts (ie, they pay you to keep the application running nicely) 😉

I would agree .NET would integrate nicely for the majority of them (most hospitals that I know of in Ontario are primarily Windows based)

I'm leaning towards .NET now rofl.
God I just need to pick one :/ I spend too much time thinking "what if" that I'll never even begin working on any ideas.

Speaking of ideas: what particular need were you considering adressing? I'd highly recommend having a thorough knowledge of your target market.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: Schrodinger
Kamper thanks for the enlightenment!

As you can see my experience with J2EE is quite limited anways.

I always value your feedback (in this thread and others). You always seem to pop up when I have Java related questions 😀

If you haven't already, you can thank me by voting for a seperate software forum (via link in my sig) 😛

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: AmigaMan

Originally posted by: kamper

First off:
-Tomcat is not a j2ee server. It's just a servlet container (plus a small directory server).
-Tomcat is made by apache, hence open source, hence free for deployment.
-If you're looking for a full featured, affordable j2ee app server, try JBoss. It's also open source (and it incorporates Tomcat as it's servlet container).

Small nitpick points:
- Actually Tomcat is a J2EE application server, servlets and JSP's are a part of the J2EE spec. It just doesn't do EJB's, among other things.
- JBOSS doesn't include Tomcat anymore, I think they switched to another servlet engine in their newest iteration.

As far as which is more used, I have no idea, I'm in the banking industry where Java has a firm hold. I do know that some hospitals use mainframes for their data storage. Our bank's mainframe actually does some data processing for a small regional hospital nearby.

Ok, you got me on the first point. I was thinking it wasn't because it doesn't do EJBs.

From the jboss 4.0 documentation:
http://docs.jboss.org/jbossas/...ide40/ch02.html#d0e930
I'd be surprised if JBoss dumped Tomcat. They control most of the development and it's even listed as a product on their website. Which iteration has stopped using Tomcat?

As for the banking industry, I'm glad to hear java is doing well there. I always imagined that there would be such high quality and security demands that a lot of systems would still be using older, more proven platforms. My online banking is served by a java server but I was surprised when I saw it. My dad develops in house for a very large insurance company and his systems are a .NET/java hybrid.

hmm...I guess I stand pwned or something. I thought I heard somewhere they switched servlet containers. Anyways, in the banking industry most of the data is still stored on older, stable, secure, and fast mainframes. It's just the way that you get to that data that's changed. IBM is heavy on the java bandwagon and have developed lots of java enabled client side tools to connect to the mainframe to get at that data. Of course you still have to secure access to that data, and Java has a lot of security APIs as well like JAAS.

 

[JackMDS]

One of the nice things about the IT in the Health industry is that many of them do not care about the ?Childish Computer Wars. (Like the Intel Vs. AMD, MS vs. Sun etc.).

There is a lot of diversity down in the Health industry and the tendency is move out of the Hospitals to private Physicians Offices. So I would say go with .Net.

Small offices are much more comfortable and can get fast support when they are using main stream all Windows settings. To be compatible the Hospital would have to support similar systems.

:sun:

 

[kamper]

Oh yeah, as JackMDS says, if you're actually developping client tools then of course you want .NET. Java's strengths are mostly on the server side.

 

[Schrodinger]

I realized that the healthcare industry may not have a particular feeling one way or the other but I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any precedence (eg 90% of the software is J2EE) so I would going the "wrong" route off from the popular vote.

I know there is much bias when it comes to the people who make the decisions, however. A friend built a really solid system using VB but basically was laughed out of the room when they asked which MS language it was written with. Nevermind it was fully capable system either :/ Just wanted to make sure neither had that sort of stigmata in the healthcare industry. You can get a$$holes like that anywhere though (but I'd be using C# anyhow)

JackMDS thanks for pointing out these things. Especially the part about physicians offices. Today I noticed that -all- rooms in the doctor's office (there must have been a dozen) have computers in them (Mac though...heh).

Hrm as for client software--basically anything I've thought of doing in healthcare (nothing solid yet, I'm just playing around with various ideas) can be done using rich clients (win32 forms based apps) or web clients (ASP .NET vs JSP/Servlet). Of course there are always Java applets for a rich cross platform interface.

I thank you for your feedback though. It has given me more things to consider!