which is faster, P4 2.8C, or A64 3800+?

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
First off . Let me say I am sorry for the poor choice of words . (Moron) that is not my posting manner.

OK we seem to have a problem with the op's orginal question .

First he ask for a compare of the 2.8c and the 3800 . These 2 are not from the same time period . Its not apples to apples .

Here is a bench from the period of time I thought we were discussing. I can get lots of these bench marks their all over the net . Am I being selective . NO . At the time of release the P4c 3.2 was the fastest cpu . Even tho it was short lived . The AMD 64 never dominated the P4C . X2 is another story along with the P4P. I love gaming but its not what the rest of the world does with their PCs. As A side note I would have loved to seen the P4C at 90nm . at 65nm or45nm I bet it would hit 10ghz O/C.

http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1256_4.html

Who cares about the time period? The OP asked about those two processors, it doesn't matter if the P4 in question came out 6 months earlier or whatever. Maybe the OP just has a general quesion that he's looking for help on. Maybe he has a choice of picking up a machine with the P4 or the A64. It doesn't matter that they are at different ends of the same generation, that's what was asked, so that's what was answered.

 

[Nemesis 1]

First lets get this pricing thing out of the way . Because this is a real sore spot for me . I wish people would take the time to understand this. When Intel and AMD 64 were battling . Intel couldn't lower their prices any more than they were. Its against the law . Intels monoply position does not allow it to undercut a superior product by a smaller maker (AMD) . Had Intel priced the P4P were it belonged according to performance Intel would have been breaking the monoply laws.

Intel had to wait to cut prices until they had the Best performance . Than and only than could they price lower and we all know they did just that .

AMD on the other hand. being a small player can give their processors away and break no law. But wouldn't make any money either . Intel doesn't have this ability because of their market position.

AMD and Intel don't get to play by the same rules because of these very reasons.

As far as exclusive deals . Yes Intel can make exclusive deals based on volumn. Lets say Dell want X amount of cpus per qt . Inorder for AMD to come even close to suppling Dell with cpu's they first needed fab capicity which they didn't have . By the time they did have the capicity to supply DEll Only . It was to late . C2D was upon us . END game.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
First lets get this pricing thing out of the way . Because this is a real sore spot for me . I wish people would take the time to understand this. When Intel and AMD 64 were battling . Intel couldn't lower their prices any more than they were. Its against the law . Intels monoply position does not allow it to undercut a superior product by a smaller maker (AMD) . Had Intel priced the P4P were it belonged according to performance Intel would have been breaking the monoply laws.

No, they wouldn't have been breaking the law at all. Intel was simply just greedy. Something that you can't seem to understand in all of this. I still can't understand why you think Intel is such a saint.

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
As far as exclusive deals . Yes Intel can make exclusive deals based on volumn. Lets say Dell want X amount of cpus per qt . Inorder for AMD to come even close to suppling Dell with cpu's they first needed fab capicity which they didn't have . By the time they did have the capicity to supply DEll Only . It was to late . C2D was upon us . END game.

Forcing exclusivity IS illegal. Saying that if you want to buy processors from us, then you can ONLY buy processors from us, is restraint of trade.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
First lets get this pricing thing out of the way . Because this is a real sore spot for me . I wish people would take the time to understand this. When Intel and AMD 64 were battling . Intel couldn't lower their prices any more than they were. Its against the law . Intels monoply position does not allow it to undercut a superior product by a smaller maker (AMD) . Had Intel priced the P4P were it belonged according to performance Intel would have been breaking the monoply laws.

Intel had to wait to cut prices until they had the Best performance . Than and only than could they price lower and we all know they did just that .

AMD on the other hand. being a small player can give their processors away and break no law. But wouldn't make any money either . Intel doesn't have this ability because of their market position.

AMD and Intel don't get to play by the same rules because of these very reasons.

As far as exclusive deals . Yes Intel can make exclusive deals based on volumn. Lets say Dell want X amount of cpus per qt . Inorder for AMD to come even close to suppling Dell with cpu's they first needed fab capicity which they didn't have . By the time they did have the capicity to supply DEll Only . It was to late . C2D was upon us . END game.

Some of the things you post, I just don't know where you get this info. Like in the other thread you posted that the Nvidia 8800 cards don't use unified shaders... I think someone is giving you false information.

I think Intel priced the P4's where they wanted to, not because they had to do anything. Intel had an inferior product, but they could survive on their name alone. AMD made great in-roads back in the P4 days, but Intel still sold lots and lots of product because of the Intel Pentium brand/name. There's a saying, "No one ever got fired for buying Intel." Intel was *the* name in processors for a long time. The only laws Intel would have broken with pricing is if they would have undercut the prices on their processor so much that it forced AMD out of business. And Intel probably could have done that, just taken losses for a year or two to kill the competition. That would be against the law. Charging $999 for a P4 EE was not soemthing they 'had' to do. Pricing their regular P4's where they did isn't something they 'had' to do. What the couldn't do is sell their P4's for $20 for a year until AMD went out of business, that's all.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1256_4.html

The OP never asked for a comparison of P4C's and Athlon XP's, so why would you be providing something he never asked for? He asked for a comparison of an Athlon 64 3800 vs 2.8 Ghz P4, which was provided to him more than 24 hours ago.

Ok I believe I understood this . Which is part of the problem I am having. If he has the oppertunity to by one or the other he should have stated that . But it looks to me like he picked cpus from differant periods . We all know the final on p4 vs, x2 it wasn't even close AMD hands down . But that never really ever happened with single cores. Intel was still strong in multi media FACT!

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
First lets get this pricing thing out of the way . Because this is a real sore spot for me . I wish people would take the time to understand this. When Intel and AMD 64 were battling . Intel couldn't lower their prices any more than they were. Its against the law . Intels monoply position does not allow it to undercut a superior product by a smaller maker (AMD) . Had Intel priced the P4P were it belonged according to performance Intel would have been breaking the monoply laws.

Intel had to wait to cut prices until they had the Best performance . Than and only than could they price lower and we all know they did just that .

AMD on the other hand. being a small player can give their processors away and break no law. But wouldn't make any money either . Intel doesn't have this ability because of their market position.

AMD and Intel don't get to play by the same rules because of these very reasons.

As far as exclusive deals . Yes Intel can make exclusive deals based on volumn. Lets say Dell want X amount of cpus per qt . Inorder for AMD to come even close to suppling Dell with cpu's they first needed fab capicity which they didn't have . By the time they did have the capicity to supply DEll Only . It was to late . C2D was upon us . END game.

Some of the things you post, I just don't know where you get this info. Like in the other thread you posted that the Nvidia 8800 cards don't use unified shaders... I think someone is giving you false information.

I think Intel priced the P4's where they wanted to, not because they had to do anything. Intel had an inferior product, but they could survive on their name alone. AMD made great in-roads back in the P4 days, but Intel still sold lots and lots of product because of the Intel Pentium brand/name. There's a saying, "No one ever got fired for buying Intel." Intel was *the* name in processors for a long time. The only laws Intel would have broken with pricing is if they would have undercut the prices on their processor so much that it forced AMD out of business. And Intel probably could have done that, just taken losses for a year or two to kill the competition. That would be against the law. Charging $999 for a P4 EE was not soemthing they 'had' to do. Pricing their regular P4's where they did isn't something they 'had' to do. What the couldn't do is sell their P4's for $20 for a year until AMD went out of business, that's all.

Well I don't want to go to far off topic but NV doesn't have unified shaders hence the reason NV doesn't work with DX10.1 . Reply in the other thread please.

Ya see this is the problem I having with you guys its a 1 way street only when you want it to be.

The reasons you give above are pretty good . But It really wasn't branding or Brand recognition that kept P4P prices high . It was Fabs that kept high pricies for inte.

Do you really believe that Intel the king of Fabs didn't know exactly how maney cpus AMD could Fab in 1 qt. Of course they did . Do you not think intel has number crunchers they worked on such stats. Of course they did .

Most AMD fans will ignore AMDs fab capicity constraints because it kills the AMD lawsuite against Intel . But fact is when its all over with the math well tell the true story .

Math being the only thing that is true and perfect on this planet. Math can't lie. But lawyers can and do . Ironic how the law uses liers and cheats to set president.

The P4C is another thorn in AMDs side . So AMD fans seem to want to lump all P4s into 1 catagory. Why is that ? The p4c was a very good processor anyone who thinks differant is just a fanbois. I may not use AMD processors for self but I have bought more than most of you every thought of . I have never said AMD 64 was not a good processor . I only said I wouldn't use one. FOR personnel usage thats all.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
First lets get this pricing thing out of the way . Because this is a real sore spot for me . I wish people would take the time to understand this. When Intel and AMD 64 were battling . Intel couldn't lower their prices any more than they were. Its against the law . Intels monoply position does not allow it to undercut a superior product by a smaller maker (AMD) . Had Intel priced the P4P were it belonged according to performance Intel would have been breaking the monoply laws.

No, they wouldn't have been breaking the law at all. Intel was simply just greedy. Something that you can't seem to understand in all of this. I still can't understand why you think Intel is such a saint.

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
As far as exclusive deals . Yes Intel can make exclusive deals based on volumn. Lets say Dell want X amount of cpus per qt . Inorder for AMD to come even close to suppling Dell with cpu's they first needed fab capicity which they didn't have . By the time they did have the capicity to supply DEll Only . It was to late . C2D was upon us . END game.

Forcing exclusivity IS illegal. Saying that if you want to buy processors from us, then you can ONLY buy processors from us, is restraint of trade.

Well part of the reason I am such an intel fanbois is AMD fanbois. But the biggest and most important reason is intel has the resources to push us ahead . Thats exactly whats happening .

If you look at the Bolded underlined statement you made . I disagree and would like to see were INTEL FORCED anyone to do anything . FORCED is a strong word and its a lie.

Why cann't you except the fact AMD was capicity constrained . Prior to AND 64 how long did AMD maintain a performance lead.over intel . Whats the longest period of time AMD lead and how hot did those chips get? This lawsuite isn't about AMD 64 check the file date of the suite . Its about befor AMD64 . AMD is like people who barely get rearended and claim injuries that never occurred at that time.

Yes intel can make exclusive deals . Lets say a new startup wants x amount of cpus per QT. Intel can supply all these cpu's . AMD cann't because they don't have the capcity . Intel wins the contract AMD loses . Their is nothing wrong in the law with this kind of deal . If so sight one case . As I discribed above. For Dell to recieve favored statis from Intel thats what was required of them .
Today Apple gets favored by intel. Apple is on the rise Dell is on the fall . So dell actually screwed themselves big time and its showing up now.

Hector said AMD well be inside Apples . He must of meant Gpus because Apple is exclusive to intel and its legeal. Hector might be right tho someday AMD cpus might go into apples, But not for the next 2 intel generations thats for sure.

Your use of the word forced is what makes me what I am . Forced I cann't even imagine what you mean by that word . Intel couldn't cut Dell off but the supply line could be severly hindered. and thats not illegeal.

The payments Dell recieved from intel every QT were advertizement moneys . Every dell commercial you see said INTEL inside. Thats what the money was for . Thats exactly how that money shows up on intels books . No one is argueing that. What has people concerned is how dell carried those payments on their books . Intel didn't have anything to do with how Dell reported these payments . Whats important is how Intel carried these payments on their books . Ya never here much about that . Only how Dell hide the payments . Intel hide nothing its on their books for all to see. Thats how Dell got caught.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
It's ok, I have no idea what the hell he's saying either. It's like a weird language that looks like english.

That was awesome. I never thought I would use someone's quote in my signature, but I feel the need now. Do you mind if I quote you in my signature?

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
It's ok, I have no idea what the hell he's saying either. It's like a weird language that looks like english.

That was awesome. I never thought I would use someone's quote in my signature, but I feel the need now. Do you mind if I quote you in my signature?

Unles you add who the quote is referencing.....He already apologized.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
It's ok, I have no idea what the hell he's saying either. It's like a weird language that looks like english.

That was awesome. I never thought I would use someone's quote in my signature, but I feel the need now. Do you mind if I quote you in my signature?

Unles you add who the quote is referencing.....He already apologized.

I guess it would be a slight to Nemesis, and that isn't what I was trying to do. I just thought that was the best line I had heard in a long time. I can leave it out if Nemesis feels that it would be inappropriate, or if it upset him.

 

[Markfw]

Gigabyte motherboards are excluded though, because I'm boycotting them for crippling their X38-DS4 and X48-DS4 boards.

Can you give me more details on that comment ? I have gone to Giga-byte exclusively lately. They have served me well.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
It's ok, I have no idea what the hell he's saying either. It's like a weird language that looks like english.

That was awesome. I never thought I would use someone's quote in my signature, but I feel the need now. Do you mind if I quote you in my signature?

No that part doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes even makes me lol . My whole life I have had poor spelling and grammer abilities. I got over it along time ago being an old timer. Thats why some of my views are so much differant than many of yours. Its like we baby boomers come from a differant place in time . We did it all or so we thought because the road it lead to was not what we wanted.

No the part that bothers me is this . That you should be so inconsiderate as not to think the other person on the Key board . Could have differant kinds of problems he or she chooses not to disclose for various reasons . To me thats being alittle heartless. Rest assured I have my problems with the keyboard . But thats not the sort of problem I am speaking of.

Well said Nemesis 1...

Guys, lets be nice now, Ok ????

Markfw900 Anandtech Moderator.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
No the part that bothers me is this . That you should be so inconsiderate as not to think the other person on the Key board . Could have differant kinds of problems he or she chooses not to disclose for various reasons . To me thats being alittle heartless. Rest assured I have my problems with the keyboard . But thats not the sort of problem I am speaking of.

I won't quote it if it bothers you. I understand bad grammar, since I had to rewrite one of my co-workers reports every week for 3 years since he was very poor at writing (as many engineers are). He has since retired, but it was kind of a pain to write my own reports, then go back and rewrite his - which was harder because I had to figure out what he was saying first.

I meant no disrespect, I just thought Jax had a good line. I actually doubt he was trying to disrespect you either; just give you a little ribbing. I know that you take a lot of grief because you have such extreme views on things and like to express them. I can't see how that can't get to you after a while, so I hope that you can take all the criticism with a grain of salt. I honestly hope that your water cooling systems work out well for you and you are as successful as you want to be.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I like fun as much as the next guy. I am fine with everthing . All I am saying the internet is interesting . But its a differant kind of place vary differant. Sometimes I hate that I am plain spoken. But I also do feel in real life (not internet.) It's the honest way to be . But on the net when your plain spoken its hard to say things exactly as you mean them . As there are to many variables on how it can be interpeted . I see it all the time. The thing is we don't know the state of the person on the keyboard. So alittle more consideration is in order.

I am retired my daughter is carring the ball now . I am just blocking for her. But I believe she has something to build on . It took long enough and the cost was 10x what we planned . Most you guys will not like it at all. I don't expect ya to. Its not meant for you guys . IF you think Voodoo is expensive and say what ya say. I can allready hear it. It will not be well recieved in forums FACT! THE cooling system and case the cornerstone of this new religion. Apple who.

So now it comes down to this . I have been lying about who I am . I have been doing Gaming Pc along time. I was badly injuried forced to retire. Right when I had it all right infront of me . I mean everthing .

My daughter has taken over since and its been ugly. But she is starting come threw big time with people she went to college with. So its looking good . Things have cost way more than projected . but we got it right now.

I am a banned member here . THE head mod knows this. And I like that he let me stick around. Thank you.

I have been banned 4 times I believe lost count. But to be honest only one time was really ban worthy. But God we had fun. Even you guys . Ronnn remember the white wolf story . I had Rollo so turned inside out and upside down I about wet my panties LOL.

So there is.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Gigabyte motherboards are excluded though, because I'm boycotting them for crippling their X38-DS4 and X48-DS4 boards.

Can you give me more details on that comment ? I have gone to Giga-byte exclusively lately. They have served me well.

Gigabyte is now intentionally crippling their less-than-highest-end motherboards, in order to attempt to force customer to purchase higher-end boards than they need, in order to make more money.

link

GigabyteColin admits as much. I assume that by his username, that his statements are more-or-less official.

So that's why I'm boycotting Gigabyte. It's sad too, they used to make really good motherboards, that used to be a good value for the user.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
GigabyteColin admits as much. I assume that by his username, that his statements are more-or-less official.

You should be boycotting all motherboard manufacturers, along with both AMD and Intel, then. They all have product segmentation, they just don't all use # of SATA ports as the segmenting factor.

 

[Jax Omen]

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
No the part that bothers me is this . That you should be so inconsiderate as not to think the other person on the Key board . Could have differant kinds of problems he or she chooses not to disclose for various reasons . To me thats being alittle heartless. Rest assured I have my problems with the keyboard . But thats not the sort of problem I am speaking of.

I won't quote it if it bothers you. I understand bad grammar, since I had to rewrite one of my co-workers reports every week for 3 years since he was very poor at writing (as many engineers are). He has since retired, but it was kind of a pain to write my own reports, then go back and rewrite his - which was harder because I had to figure out what he was saying first.

I meant no disrespect, I just thought Jax had a good line. <B>I actually doubt he was trying to disrespect you either; just give you a little ribbing. </B>I know that you take a lot of grief because you have such extreme views on things and like to express them. I can't see how that can't get to you after a while, so I hope that you can take all the criticism with a grain of salt. I honestly hope that your water cooling systems work out well for you and you are as successful as you want to be.

This is exactly it. I'm a rather sarcastic individual. I rarely mean anything by it.



And I'd say if you're going to sig me, do NOT include what I was referring to.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
And I'd say if you're going to sig me, do NOT include what I was referring to.

That's ok (I wasn't planning on including that part anyway). I didn't realize it would cause such a stir. It was just cool to me because I remember all the trouble I had trying to translate my co-workers work every week. After three years that gets pretty old, so my frustrations were probably why I liked the line so much. I'll leave it be since I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but thanks for giving me permission to use it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
GigabyteColin admits as much. I assume that by his username, that his statements are more-or-less official.

You should be boycotting all motherboard manufacturers, along with both AMD and Intel, then. They all have product segmentation, they just don't all use # of SATA ports as the segmenting factor.

I'm waiting for Gigabyte to start intentionally crippling their lower-end boards and only including 4 USB ports on the back panel, and then require you to spend $50 more for their high-end boards, that include 8 USB on their back panel...

Likewise, I'm looking forward to Gigabyte mobos that include 7.1 sound chipsets, but yet only include stereo audio outputs on the back panel, unless of course you upgrade to their highest-end boards, which have the proper 7.1 audio ports, and perhaps a digital audio out.

I mean, now that they've started to cripple their boards as a means of product differentiation, where will it stop?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I like fun as much as the next guy. I am fine with everthing . All I am saying the internet is interesting . But its a differant kind of place vary differant. Sometimes I hate that I am plain spoken. But I also do feel in real life (not internet.) It's the honest way to be . But on the net when your plain spoken its hard to say things exactly as you mean them . As there are to many variables on how it can be interpeted . I see it all the time. The thing is we don't know the state of the person on the keyboard. So alittle more consideration is in order.

I am retired my daughter is carring the ball now . I am just blocking for her. But I believe she has something to build on . It took long enough and the cost was 10x what we planned . Most you guys will not like it at all. I don't expect ya to. Its not meant for you guys . IF you think Voodoo is expensive and say what ya say. I can allready hear it. It will not be well recieved in forums FACT! THE cooling system and case the cornerstone of this new religion. Apple who.

So now it comes down to this . I have been lying about who I am . I have been doing Gaming Pc along time. I was badly injuried forced to retire. Right when I had it all right infront of me . I mean everthing .

My daughter has taken over since and its been ugly. But she is starting come threw big time with people she went to college with. So its looking good . Things have cost way more than projected . but we got it right now.

I am a banned member here . THE head mod knows this. And I like that he let me stick around. Thank you.

I have been banned 4 times I believe lost count. But to be honest only one time was really ban worthy. But God we had fun. Even you guys . Ronnn remember the white wolf story . I had Rollo so turned inside out and upside down I about wet my panties LOL.

So there is.

Looks like you know the end is near. Hello Intelia, Turtle1. ?? or David?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Hi keys . I can't believe Duvie didn't say anything. Yes I do know the end is near. So I want to make sure I go out correctly . Its hard but i have had a good life. Don't worry about it.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Hi keys . I can't believe Duvie didn't say anything. Yes I do know the end is near. So I want to make sure I go out correctly . Its hard but i have had a good life. Don't worry about it.

I was talking about AT. You make it sound like it's your life your talking about?

 

[Nemesis 1]

My bad. Ya I was just on pm with mod. I for a second their thought you new things you couldn't possiably know LOL

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I'm waiting for Gigabyte to start intentionally crippling their lower-end boards and only including 4 USB ports on the back panel, and then require you to spend $50 more for their high-end boards, that include 8 USB on their back panel...

Likewise, I'm looking forward to Gigabyte mobos that include 7.1 sound chipsets, but yet only include stereo audio outputs on the back panel, unless of course you upgrade to their highest-end boards, which have the proper 7.1 audio ports, and perhaps a digital audio out.

I mean, now that they've started to cripple their boards as a means of product differentiation, where will it stop?

Your arguments are utter idiocy, Larry (just the arguments, not you). Just because you want 18 SATA ports on a $79 motherboard that will also take a quad-core to 7Ghz, doesn't mean we all expect that. Like I said earlier, every single company who sells motherboards or CPU's (and probably some product I'm forgetting) has product differentiation. Asus does it, Abit does it, Gigabyte does it, they all do it, they just don't all use # of SATA ports as the differentiating factor. I think you should start your boycotting with both Intel and AMD, then you won't even need to worry about motherboard manufacturers.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I'm waiting for Gigabyte to start intentionally crippling their lower-end boards and only including 4 USB ports on the back panel, and then require you to spend $50 more for their high-end boards, that include 8 USB on their back panel...

Likewise, I'm looking forward to Gigabyte mobos that include 7.1 sound chipsets, but yet only include stereo audio outputs on the back panel, unless of course you upgrade to their highest-end boards, which have the proper 7.1 audio ports, and perhaps a digital audio out.

I mean, now that they've started to cripple their boards as a means of product differentiation, where will it stop?

Your arguments are utter idiocy, Larry

No, they are not. That's exactly what Gigabyte is doing in this case. If you did some research and checked out the pictures of the EX38-DS4 and EX48-DS4 boards, and compared them with the P35 varients, you would see what I'm talking about.

Why are they not including features that the chipset supports? Just to force you to purchase a higher-end model. If the chipset supports 8 USB ports, would you prefer it if Gigabyte only included 4 on their base mobo model, and only included 8 USB ports on their higher-end models? Traditionally, mobo mfgs include support for everything that is supported by the chipset.

Gigabyte is going against that tradition, and is starting to intentionally cripple their boards. Don't you get it?

What if the ICH9R supports six SATA ports, and they only include 4 SATA ports on their base models? (As a hypothetical) Would that appeal to you? Or should they include all six SATA ports on ALL MODELS of mobos that sport the ICH9R chipset?

Gigabyte isn't making their customers happy by crippling the capability that their boards support (by the chipset). It will eventually erode their bottom-line as well.

Gigabyte forsees a future in which all of their lower-end models are just placeholders in the marketplace, and they force everyone to purchase their DQ6 model, if you really want any of those features. Just look at their P45-DS4 versus the P45-DQ6.