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Which is better for my purposes?

R

Raikiel

Junior Member
Hi all!

I'm looking to get into digital art, and I just wondered if anyone had any recomendations for me on the note of processors. Right now, I'm considering Dual Opterons running at 1.4 GHz, or thereabouts. However, I got to thinking about it, I began wondering if a single 64-bit processor running at say 2GHz or so might actually perform better on the common digital art apps, and perhaps be more cost effective. Anyone got a suggestion on this? I only ask you to keep two things in mind when replying to this post:

1) I'm on a budget here, so please try to keep your suggestions wallet-friendly. 😉

2) I do not, repeat do not ever, ever, did I say ever? overclock anything in my machines, so don't even think about suggesting it. You may be able to afford the nuclear meltdown of your parts, and that's fine for you, it's a risk you take, but I know I can't afford it, so I don't risk it.

Other than that, all responses are welcome!

Thanks!

Raikiel
 
How much was the dual 1.4ghz opteron machine going to run you??? Need someting to get an idea of price willing to pay...

Also what are the names of the apps you will be running.??
 
a dual processor doesnt run any faster hten a single processor. it just runs things better, as in much more cpu bandwidth. generally to speak, you'll get hte benefit of far better multi-tasking.
 
Originally posted by: Mik3y
a dual processor doesnt run any faster hten a single processor. it just runs things better, as in much more cpu bandwidth. generally to speak, you'll get hte benefit of far better multi-tasking.
Click to expand...

That is not quite true!!!

2 x 1.4ghz Opterons running non smp aware ( multithreaded) apps will be no faster then a single desktop cpu at 1.4ghz....That also goes for most gaming apps that all the amd fanboys play here!!

Now take that to an Autocad application and render with multithreaded on and you can gain 40+% in spead. So yes you wont be 1.4x2= 2.8ghz in speed but you would be equivalent to a 2.0ghz single cpu...

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT MULITASKING ALONE!!!

If apps are threaded for it there is a definite speed increase. If apps are not then the multitask is the key function...Again gamers will see this...

You need to see how smp aware the apps are you will be running. Is there 64bit support for it??? A nice xeon setup can give you potentially 4 virtual cpus (only 2 physical ones).
 
3.0C retail box w/ hyperthreading = $198
Intel "D865PERLL" i865PE = $86
1GB Muskin PC3200 = $134

Dual opterons 140's will cost you 2x this and be slower 90% of the time.
 
we need more info. what apps are you going to be using? are they smp aware? are they 64bit? if they arent going to be smp aware, dont even waste your time with 2 processors. just get a winchester 3200+. if they are smp aware, i would think the dual 1.4ghz would be alright, but not any faster then the single 3200+ and probably not worth the extra money.
 
you could get a single A64 s939 4000 or 3800. that should be just about as fast. see how the price compares.
 
Wow! Lot of responses. Thanks everybody!

Now the thing I'm hearing from most of you is that you need to know more about my intended usage for this proposed machine, and the prices I was looking at for the parts I had considered.

By NewEgg prices, it was about $160 per processor for the 1.4GHz Opterons, plus a miniscule shipping fee. The board was about $300 for one that was decently featured and a brand I trusted. The real killer was the memory tho, as I would have been required to get no less than PC2700 Registered/ECC, which if you've looked lately is pricey!!! I figured if I was going to spend that much money on RAM, I might as well get the good stuff and get a 1GB stick of PC3200 (the highest rating that the board recognized) and be done with it. This was about $260 for the Corsair brand, which was not the cheapest, but it was the first brand name on the list I even recognized, and Corsair has a decent track record.

As far as which apps I'll be running, I'm not entirely sure. I'd like to experiment with Poser, Vue, World builder and Light wave. Maybe Bryce, too.

Once I've got the simpler programs down, I'd like to move on to the more mainstream things like 3DSMax and Maya, but I don't forsee that happening for at least a couple of years or so.

I should probably also mention that I'm not planning on this machine being a dedicated graphics powerhouse. I also intend to have the beast run games, at least until I can afford to have 2 separate machines. What I'm really looking for is the best bang for the buck, and part of that bang includes this thing being multi-functional.

Hope that helps clarify things!

Thanks again,

Raikiel
 
A bunch of those apps are smp aware and I know from my testing are HT aware...Unfortunately I havent ran them all again with my new amd64 setup to see ho good that p4 setup I had was.....

HOwever I would say a 3.0 or 3.2ghz p4 w/ HT would be better in those apps then a MORE expensive dual opteron setup, which....will require a more expensive motherboard, a higher grade and more expensive power supply, possibly more expenisve ECC ram (but I don't know for sure).....

I would personally get a 3.0c (nice sweet spot) northwood (faster then a 3.0e), place it on a proven matured i875/865 chipset (Abit IC7 or AI7)...get 1gb of pc3200 value ram. ( most of those apps are not as memory dependent as other things).....

money saved get a nice VID CARD....

NOw I know you dont want to OC but ow about soft-mod ( software tweak)??? I can help you convert aan ATI card into a FIREGL card or an NVidia Geforce card into a Quadro FX card.....Save hundreds to near one thousand dollars versus comparable cards....


If I did more testing I could maybe tell you if a comparable priced A64 (to that of the p4 3.0c) would beat the P4 even with HT, but from what I have seen it may be close in the CAD apps... However in feel of system in mutlitasking I can safely say as no longer an INtel user and accussed fanboy the p4c was better in multitasking.
 
if you are gaming, dont go with the dualies. you will NOT be impressed. since P4's tend to be better at most things (besides games, and even then, if u have a 3+GHz p4 you will be set), i would get a 3.4GHz P4 (http://www.newegg.com/app/View...19-116-182&depa=0). this will be $20 cheaper then your dual 1.4GHz proc. if you put that $20 twards your memory, $280 bucks you can get you 2GB of corsair value ram (http://www.newegg.com/app/View...20-145-440&depa=0). value ram is great, and since you arent overclocking this should suit you fine. the extra GB of ram will be VERY nice for 3d programs.
good luck,
nick

EDIT: im a n00b compared to Duvie, so if i contradict him...dont listen to me lol
 
Originally posted by: zakee00
if you are gaming, dont go with the dualies. you will NOT be impressed. since P4's tend to be better at most things (besides games, and even then, if u have a 3+GHz p4 you will be set)
Click to expand...

that is completely false. here's some benches... http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=65000326

if you're looking for best bang for buck, AMD beats INTEL. i wouldnt say that a 3.0 P4 would be faster. it may be, but all those apps are hard core and are likely to be SMP aware. it would be cheaper no doubt though, since the dual opteron mobo is really expensive and the buffered ram probably costs more too. however, if thats true, the A64 3000 would be better than the P4. i recommend the A64 S939 90nm winchester 3500. if you think thats not enough check out the 3700 3800 4000 and fx55.

good luck.
 
Originally posted by: Raikiel
Wow! Lot of responses. Thanks everybody!

Now the thing I'm hearing from most of you is that you need to know more about my intended usage for this proposed machine, and the prices I was looking at for the parts I had considered.

By NewEgg prices, it was about $160 per processor for the 1.4GHz Opterons, plus a miniscule shipping fee. The board was about $300 for one that was decently featured and a brand I trusted. The real killer was the memory tho, as I would have been required to get no less than PC2700 Registered/ECC, which if you've looked lately is pricey!!! I figured if I was going to spend that much money on RAM, I might as well get the good stuff and get a 1GB stick of PC3200 (the highest rating that the board recognized) and be done with it. This was about $260 for the Corsair brand, which was not the cheapest, but it was the first brand name on the list I even recognized, and Corsair has a decent track record.

As far as which apps I'll be running, I'm not entirely sure. I'd like to experiment with Poser, Vue, World builder and Light wave. Maybe Bryce, too.

Once I've got the simpler programs down, I'd like to move on to the more mainstream things like 3DSMax and Maya, but I don't forsee that happening for at least a couple of years or so.

I should probably also mention that I'm not planning on this machine being a dedicated graphics powerhouse. I also intend to have the beast run games, at least until I can afford to have 2 separate machines. What I'm really looking for is the best bang for the buck, and part of that bang includes this thing being multi-functional.

Hope that helps clarify things!

Thanks again,

Raikiel
Click to expand...


Like I said you'll be well over $800, don' forget about HSF x 2 either... P4C should start looking better by now add rock solid Intel (built by Asus) mobo and you're set for all your multimedia needs IMHO.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
3.0C retail box w/ hyperthreading = $198
Intel "D865PERLL" i865PE = $86
1GB Muskin PC3200 = $134

Dual opterons 240's will cost you 2x this and be slower 90% of the time.
Click to expand...
Fixed, and I couldn't agree more, with a tight budget in mind that should be a great setup.

If you really want to go dual Opteron and want AGP but can live without PCIe and PCI-X this is about the minimum you can spend right now and get decent CPU power.

2x242 $406 shipped you must have been eyeeing the 140s which can't run in dual, the 240 is only $11 less than the 242s making the extra 200mhz for each CPU a great upgrade for a budget dual Opteron system .

MSI Master2-FAR with both CPU coolers $214 shipped


2x512mb 3200 reg. ecc $190 shipped


You can use a normal ATX case&PSU so no other additional costs. But as you can see Zebo's config saves you a bunch of money and the extra clockspeed+HT will probably run your apps faster, though it won't multitask as strong as the true dually will. I can't say if any of your software is planning to go 64bit or if doing so will provide any real performance and/or IQ enhancements so that could be 1 x-factor to investigate I suppose. Mainstream 64bit is coming so if planning to use the system for years that could influence the purchasing decision provided the proggies take advantage of it.

You may be better served spending the difference between the dually and P4 on a raided SATA HDD setup if you weren't already planning on it.
 
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Originally posted by: Zebo
3.0C retail box w/ hyperthreading = $198
Intel "D865PERLL" i865PE = $86
1GB Muskin PC3200 = $134

Dual opterons 240's will cost you 2x this and be slower 90% of the time.
Click to expand...
Fixed, and I couldn't agree more, with a tight budget in mind that should be a great setup.
Click to expand...

Duh.. Thats right Raikiel now it's $200 each OEM, no HSF processor, not the $160 you suspected above. Unless you have very specific needs (or overclcok of course) opteron is a non-stater IMO on a budget.

read this: 3.2C edgeing out two opterons @1.4..

http://www.techreport.com/revi...rkstation/index.x?pg=8

So I think you'll be a equivalent on SMP aware apps with a 3.0C while smoking opteron 240's on everything else.
 
Wow. I'm hearing a lot of Intel votes, which is an interesting factoid considering that most of you who responded are all running Athlon 64 systems. I'm still undecided as of yet, (part of my indecision being that I really don't have the money to do this yet anyway, I'm just probing for info at the moment.) Now I did do some research on my own and found that the middle grade p4s (like the 3.0c) don't perform much better/worse than the comparitively priced Athlon 64s, and the fact of the matter is, it's not until you get up to about the 500-600 dollar mark on any given processor that the performance numbers really take off in a good direction. On that note, I may have to hold off on this and do it when I can afford a larger budget. :frown: Oh well such is life. Maybe by the end of the year...

Thanks everybody for your input!

Raikiel

PS. Duvie, if you do get around to testing out the that software on your new A64 system, let me know. I'd be interested to hear your findings, just for grins and giggles. Just post back here if you get the chance. Thanks!
 
First, you haven't even set a budget. Next I don;t know those apps, but duvie says they are smp aware, if he has them, and we can install them on my dually, we could run benchmarks. Untill you get all those facts, I can;t say which way to go, P4, single Athlon64 or dual 244 or better.

BTW, there is a small advantage with duallies on games, but I doubt you would notice, unless you do like me, and encode while gaming and 2xF@H at the same time.

(edit: Duvie lives 5 minutes away from me, and has been over twice)
 
You made a good point Mark, I should probably have said what my approximated budget was. One of the reasons I didn't mention that though, was I was doing the research on this stuff in part so that I could set a reasonable budget to begin with. Off hand tho, I'd like not to spend anymore than about 1600 on this machine, but I don't know if that's possible. The other thing is, as I said before, I don't have the cash just laying around to do this with.

If you can tho, I'd love to see those benchmarks you mentioned. That might go a long way in helping me decide on things.

Thanks!

Raikiel
 
OK, now what all has to be in the $1600 budget ? And how import are the apps vs the gaming ? And and specifically which apps ? (are your choices the smp aware ones ?) The duall Opteron 244's may very well be a good option, as it might fit in the budget. The config above is OK, but your cpus won't be running dual channel unles you get 4x512 (2 each) That would put you at about $1000 minus the drives and video card ????

Edit: I am still not sure if this is the best way to go, but it is looking like a possibility. 2 Opteron 1.8's on SMP aware software can REALLY run well, and definitely multitask.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
3.0C retail box w/ hyperthreading = $198
Intel "D865PERLL" i865PE = $86
1GB Muskin PC3200 = $134

Dual opterons 140's will cost you 2x this and be slower 90% of the time.
Click to expand...

You can't have dual 140's
 
Originally posted by: Raikiel
Wow. I'm hearing a lot of Intel votes, which is an interesting factoid considering that most of you who responded are all running Athlon 64 systems. I'm still undecided as of yet, (part of my indecision being that I really don't have the money to do this yet anyway, I'm just probing for info at the moment.) Now I did do some research on my own and found that the middle grade p4s (like the 3.0c) don't perform much better/worse than the comparitively priced Athlon 64s, and the fact of the matter is, it's not until you get up to about the 500-600 dollar mark on any given processor that the performance numbers really take off in a good direction. On that note, I may have to hold off on this and do it when I can afford a larger budget. :frown: Oh well such is life. Maybe by the end of the year...

Thanks everybody for your input!

Raikiel

PS. Duvie, if you do get around to testing out the that software on your new A64 system, let me know. I'd be interested to hear your findings, just for grins and giggles. Just post back here if you get the chance. Thanks!
Click to expand...

939 3200 is'nt a bad choice either. But there are no wonderful motherboards and they are expensive. twice the amount of 865pe intel boards. price/performance, for your intents, Intel northwood is better. One thing for sure is A64 is more responsive. It has half the latency of pentium systems which makes everything feel snappy.
 
Ok Mark asked what I had to fit into that $1600 budget, which was a good question. I absolutely will need to purchase the following:

-Motherboard (looking to go with ASUS, Abit, Gigabyte, or Biostar, as I've had good luck with those brands in the past)

-Processor(s) I'd like to stick with Socket 939 if we're talking AMD single processor. I'm intel socket spec clueless, so you tell me. Just as an aside, can P4s be run in a dual processor set up? I know the P3s were capaple of this, as a friend of mine did it a few years back. Unfortunately, he OCed the living hell out of them and the air became rank with the smell of melting silicon :Q. One of the reasons I never overclock myself. Over all tho, with regard to processors, I really do have an AMD preference, so I'd like to go with them if at all affordably possible.

-I'll also need a CPU heat sink and fan (more than one of course if I decide to go dual processor) Anything, anything at all but Antec. I've had horrid luck with their products over the last 2 years, so I'm staging my own personal boycot against them.

-Memory (I'd like about a gig of PC3200, Corsair, Crucial or someone else with a good price and more importantly a consistently good track record. I've noted the opterons only seem to like Registered/ECC, so that tends to jack the price a bit.)

-Video Card (looking at a FireGL v5100 right now, so the mobo has to have at least one PCI-E slot)

-Graphics Tablet (looking at a Wacom Intuos 2 or 3, at least 6x8, but 9x12 preferred. This particular piece I'm very willing to go to ebay for)

-I may also need a new power supply, depending on what I do end up getting (my current is a 350 watter)


Now here are the "extras" that I'd like to have, I can afford them:

-CD-RW/DVD RW +/- drive (gotta have some way of backing all my creations up after all)

-A SATA/RAID capable hard drive (Seagate or Western Digital about 80gigs) This is not necessary because I do have an 80GB hard drive from WD, but it's only IDE.

-An Audigy 2 sound card (for the games more than anything else)

Mark also asked which was more important to me, the games or the apps. They are both equally important. I should probably note though that it's unlikely I'll be running anything more advanced than UT2K4 and World of Warcraft on the machine for a while, at least in the games department. Now, on the note of apps, I'm really looking into basic training-wheels stuff first, and a book I had on the subject suggested that Poser and Vue were fabulous for the beginning 3D artist, so those are definitely on the list. I have also heard good things about Lightwave and Worldbuilder from some of the sites I visit every now and then to grab new wallpaper, so I'm seriously considering those as well. And of course no digital art studio is complete without Photoshop. I may also look into painter/illustrator for other 2D apps. When I'm ready to really dive head first into the advanced 3D stuff, I'll probably want Shade 7, 3DSMax, and Maya, but as I said before, those three will not likely be of use to me for at least a couple of years, so parts that will maximize my work performance with those programs can wait for a future upgrade.

Ok, now that I've laid all this out, and probably earned the name of "AMD fan-boy", does this help clarify my intentions (and hopefully my needs) for this machine?

Thanks again!

Raikiel
 
OK, I don't have the time right now to go over your list. But, I talked to duvie. A single P4 at 3.5 on cinebench (no HT) did ~354, with HT, did ~422. My dual 2.2 Opterons picture bench is enclosed at 564(87% increase using 2 cpu's, should work like autocad per duvie, APPROX), but the dual 244's we are talking about for you would do (if linear) 461 which would blow the he$$ out of even a 3.4 P4 at stock.

So, the bottom line is, if you want to spend the $$$$$ I don;t think the dual Opterons will disapoint you. Add up everything you need other than cpu's/motherboard/memory, and if you want do it for ~$600 you will be dancing in the streets I think. (x800pro at $400 or less should do, leaves $200 for HD and cd ??)
 
Cinebench uses a similar rendering process and the 19% increasse I saw in Cinebench translated perfectly to my AT2004 rendering scores.....2 physical cpus delivering 83-87% is not the norm from what I have seen, but that is a nice idea of what truly well written SMP software can do...

In other apps I have seen anywhere from 40% up...


The big wrench is I didn't see you say you wouldn't be ready for those type of apps for a few years.....Maybe what that means is get 1 244 or 246 or 248 and get a great vid card (I can help you soft mod) and nice SATA drive system...Add matching opteron later as the need is more....Heck nothing like a nice monitor or dual 17" to work with.....
 
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