Which CPU is best for this situation

[kudzu22]

Background: I need to build a small portable PC. I need something I can easily stuff in a small bag and put on carry on on an airplane. I do not want a laptop as I want something high performance built with standard parts I can upgrade as needed.

Im looking at Mini-ITX form factor, but may consider Micro-ATX as there are more options there. Need a board with at least 4G RAM support. Something like this:
http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_75/products_id/552

First step is pick the CPU. Of course as fast as possible, but don't want absolute top end. Will be doing a lot of virtualizatino, so the virtualization extensions are important. Will consdier AMD or Intel, but right now Virtual Server already supports Intel with AMD not coming until Q4.

My thinking is 64 but dual core. Power is not an issue for me, however since I have to fit in a smaller case I cannot have a huge power sucker, but I dont need a low power chip either. Something in the middle wattage wise, slightly above maybe. I wont have other hardware except hard drive and video card.

I did some digging and the Pentium D 900's appear to be 64 but and dual core, as well as have virtual extensions. Priced at about $200 in the US, definitely affordable.

Ideas? Comments? Typically in the work I do memory and or hard drive have been my killers, so CPU is important, but so is size of the final package which is also influenced by power supply size and avaiable motherboards in the form factors I need. Otherwise i dont care how much power it uses, I'm not planning to run off batteries.

 

[robertk2012]

How much are you looking to spend? I would go with the biostar tforce 6100 939 for the motherboard. It has for ram slots which you said you need. Then a single core a64 or a 3800 whatever floats your boat.

 

[kudzu22]

I havent set a price, but I'm willing to go way over $30. The ones I was looking at were $200 and more. I'm pretty set on getting dual core, not just single core. Also what is the form factor? Remember i dont want ATX. Mini-ITX is my target, although Micro-ATX or FlexATX might be ok if I had to.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

3800+ x2

 

[dexvx]

There are Core Solo/Duo mini-ITX boards from Connell (spelling?). These are made for indstrial uses and are quite rare/expensive ($200 for the board alone).

 

[kudzu22]

Why do you recommend that speicific to my situation?

 

[kudzu22]

I couldnt find any by the name Connell, but i think i ran across a similar name but I cannot find it now. I've found a few Mini-ITX's that take Pentium M, and even some that take P4's.

But how do you think a duo M would hold up compared to day a Pentium D 900 series? Especially considering I'm doing a lot of virtualization? I dont think the M's have virtualizaitno support? (Which can be about a 25 to 30% improvement alone)? And the D 900's have 64 bit extensions as well.

 

[robertk2012]

Originally posted by: kudzu22
I havent set a price, but I'm willing to go way over $30. The ones I was looking at were $200 and more. I'm pretty set on getting dual core, not just single core. Also what is the form factor? Remember i dont want ATX. Mini-ITX is my target, although Micro-ATX or FlexATX might be ok if I had to.

It is micro at. I doubt you will get mini with four ram slots. I might be wrong because I never really looked.

 

[robertk2012]

You might want to wait on Merom if you want a 64 bit mobile processor. They are suppose to fit in the core duo boards though. I have no idea on the virtulization but I do know a core duo is clock for clock as fast as an a64....maybe a little faster. Your going to spend more for the motherboard though.

 

[zephyrprime]

A 9xx series is your best bet since it supports virtualization. The only other option is core duo but I don't know if there are any mini boards that support that.

Are you sure you don't want a laptop though? I really thing a laptop is the best choice for any application that requires mobility. Lugging around a mini pc will get old real fast.

 

[pcoffman]

Originally posted by: kudzu22
I dont think the M's have virtualizaitno support?

I think you're right, that Core Duo does not have virtualization. My only concern with the 900 series is that Pentium D tends to run a little hot. And you want a small form factor box.

AM-2 has support for virtualization. It performs as well as Socket-939, but has a lower TDP, which fits well with your SFF needs. Not sure when boards will start appearing. Should be soon, tho'.

If you can wait, a mobile Core 2 Duo chip may be better still.

 

[larciel]

actualy top end core-duo might have VT

 

[pcoffman]

Originally posted by: larciel
actualy top end core-duo might have VT

I can't find any mention of VT on Intel's Core Duo page. I suspect that VT was one of the things Intel had to give up for the sake of a longer battery life. Core 2 should have VT, though.

 

[kudzu22]

Originally posted by: dexvx
There are Core Solo/Duo mini-ITX boards from Connell (spelling?). These are made for indstrial uses and are quite rare/expensive ($200 for the board alone).

Commell - knew i recognized it. Thats the one I pointed to in my original message.

http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_75/products_id/552

 

[kudzu22]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime
A 9xx series is your best bet since it supports virtualization. The only other option is core duo but I don't know if there are any mini boards that support that.

Are you sure you don't want a laptop though? I really thing a laptop is the best choice for any application that requires mobility. Lugging around a mini pc will get old real fast.

I have a laptop now. The problems with laptops is drive speed for one. But also upgradability. If I get a mini-ITX its fairly luggable and even less weight than some monster like the Toshiba M4 (which i despise).

If I were to get a board like this:
Commell LV-677
With the top end Duo, and a high speed SATA drive - how do you think any laptop would compare? Even I could plug in extgernal USB 2.0 or SATA external... but still then I have to carry around extra stuff anwyays.

Even if my miniITX ends up at say 5kg, thats not bad and about the same weight as the Toshiba M4 or other monster laptops. Even for machine I'd go 7kg for something really fast.

AFAIK even fast 2.5" drives severly lag behind 3.5" drives in speed, no?

 

[v8envy]

The truly small form factor PC cases aren't designed to house a fire-breathing server. Fast hard drives suck power, and emit it as heat. CPUs likewise. Most SFF cases come with very lackluster power supplies (rated at 200-350 watts) that will have a hard time feeding two 15k RPM Barracudas and a well hung CPU as case temperatures climb to 50+ C.

I'm guessing you're a traveling conslutant, with a need to demo or work on client/server apps on site. I was trying to solve the same problem, and really couldn't come up with a good answer.

My solution is to check a not-so portable conventional small tower PC in a padded suitcase, install it at the client during my stay, and use a standard notebook for computing during commuting needs. I don't do one-day demos, so my answer may not work so well for you. I can't quite lug my server to the hotel room to work on stuff, but then that wouldn't be practical with a smaller form factor either -- you'd have to schlep a monitor & keyboard if that was your only PC.

A server in a micro-itx case is still a pipe dream, AFAIK.


The way to approach this is to find the case which suits your needs, and then work backwards from there to fit in the best CPU and hard drives. Who knows, gear may be available now to pull off what I couldn't do last year.

 

[robertk2012]

2.5" are slower.

 

[pcoffman]

Originally posted by: kudzu22
AFAIK even fast 2.5" drives severly lag behind 3.5" drives in speed, no?

Actually, you can get 2.5" drives that spin at 7200 rpm, the typical speed that a desktop drive spins at. You can also get 2.5" drives that have perpendicular recording technology, which is state of the art. However, I don't think that drive makers offer 7200 rpm drives with PRT yet, and 2.5" drives seem to only go up to SATA 150, not SATA 300, like desktop drives. They do tend to be slower. How much? I haven't seen any benchmarks.

 

[robertk2012]

Originally posted by: pcoffman

Originally posted by: kudzu22
AFAIK even fast 2.5" drives severly lag behind 3.5" drives in speed, no?

Actually, you can get 2.5" drives that spin at 7200 rpm, the typical speed that a desktop drive spins at. You can also get 2.5" drives that have perpendicular recording technology, which is state of the art. However, I don't think that drive makers offer 7200 rpm drives with PRT yet, and 2.5" drives seem to only go up to SATA 150, not SATA 300, like desktop drives. They do tend to be a little slower. How much? I haven't seen any benchmarks.

A 7200 laptop drive is still much slower than a 7200 3.5" drive

 

[kudzu22]

Originally posted by: v8envy
The truly small form factor PC cases aren't designed to house a fire-breathing server. Fast hard drives suck power, and emit it as heat. CPUs likewise. Most SFF cases come with very lackluster power supplies (rated at 200-350 watts) that will have a hard time feeding two 15k RPM Barracudas and a well hung CPU as case temperatures climb to 50+ C.

To be clear - Im not looking for a fire breathing machine. I'm looking for something that will yield me more performane than I can get out of a laptop, and with upgradable replaceable parts. I want good performance, but not absoluate top end.

I'm still searching for a performance comparison between the Duo's and d/4. Any idea? Right now I have an idea how a D/4 performs, but not where a Duo compares. This would go a long way towards my decision.

Originally posted by: v8envy
I'm guessing you're a traveling conslutant, with a need to demo or work on client/server apps on site. I was trying to solve the same problem, and really couldn't come up with a good answer.

Well something like that. I work for a very large company and have a territory of 85 countries across 3 continents and 11 timezones. Each trip is usually 2-3 days, but at each stop I do demonstrations in front of large audiences. Sometimes a few hundred, sometimes a few thousand. And it looks bad when stuff runs slow because I have to demo it on some laptop - and the stuff I'm demoing people generally dont run all if ot on one laptop....

Originally posted by: v8envy
My solution is to check a not-so portable conventional small tower PC in a padded suitcase, install it at the client during my stay, and use a standard notebook for computing during commuting needs. I don't do one-day demos, so my answer may not work so well for you. I can't quite lug my server to the hotel room to work on stuff, but then that wouldn't be practical with a smaller form factor either -- you'd have to schlep a monitor & keyboard if that was your only PC.

Yes, thats exactly what i plan to do. i wont be lugging monitor or keyboard and will use local ones. I will still be carrying a laptop. In fact I found a neat KVM device that works on USB for a laptop and simulates keyboard, mouse and video. Since I will also be donig mostly virtualization I can remotely access the virtual machines over the network.

But a mini tower is too big. Airlines in this region are sticklers and a 15 pound / 7 kilo limit is normal. I've checked towers before and even in padded cases most times when I get where I am going I have to open it up and reseat cards, memory and other until it boots again... A few of these and I won't have a functioning hard drive.

Originally posted by: v8envy
A server in a micro-itx case is still a pipe dream, AFAIK.

Again, not looking for server class. Well maybe lower end server class. And really shooting for Mini-ITX. I found that board from Commell in Mini-ITX and Commel confirms it will run the Duo 2.16 GHZ (T2600).

If Duo is as good as I can go - I guess the question then becomes how would a machine like that with a 3.5" drive and RAM perform compared against a laptop wtih same CPU and an external 3.5" drive on USB 2.0? I know there would be a difference - but would you expect it to be a big one?

Originally posted by: v8envy
The way to approach this is to find the case which suits your needs, and then work backwards from there to fit in the best CPU and hard drives. Who knows, gear may be available now to pull off what I couldn't do last year.

Also I was not thikning about 15000 rpms, just good fast 7200 RPMs because in the 2.5" arena its my experience that even 7200's are dogs compared to 3.5" ones.

 

[robertk2012]

A core duo is clock for clock as fast as an x-2. So basically your going to see the performance of a 4200 x2. If you need more power than that you can either overclock or get a more power x2. I just dont like the pentium ds in a sff case.

 

[kudzu22]

Are the Duo internals pretty much the same? I would assume there are other things that are missing, smaller caches, etc. Also don't the Duo's communicate using the FSB while the x2's have some better / faster mechanism?

But a wrench just got thrown in. I just saw the virtualization stuff from WinHEC and it looks like 64 bit is going to be even more important for me now.

So I'm wondering... Maybe my best bet is to find a 64 bit laptop with a CPU with the VT extensions (AMD most likely, I've not seen 64 bit Intel laptops) and an external drive? Or maybe I can find an upcoming low power 64 bit and a MiniITX board... not likely I would assume. ah heck. ;(

 

[v8envy]

Well, lemme share some of my own research.

First, emt64 is Intel's implementation of amd's 64 bit instruction set. Just about any modern P4 laptop will have the same kind of 64 bit support as an AMD laptop. But, it'll run hotter, and if hyperthreading is enabled, run slower. These were my findings doing long runs of J2EE apps.

External USB2 or FireWire hard drives are not a great solution. With the best chipsets you'll get 40 MB (megabytes, not bits) per second in sustained read/write ops, which is a good 25% better than your internal laptop hard drives (possible exception: the 160 gig Seagate perpendicular drives that just came out. no experience with those). Latency appears to be far worse than IDE or SATA, so your start IOs go way down, as do sync write rates. Doing database writes on an external USB2 hard drive is, in other words, worse due to higher latency in spite of higher bandwidth. RAID does not help with latency. There are also issues with most external enclosures cooling a high performance hard drive.

If I was doing this today, I'd get eSATA external enclosures and a mini-itx SFF case/motherboard with at least 1 external eSATA connection. I'd use the new Seagate 750G perpendicular drive in that enclosure.

You can bring the hard drive and RAM in your carry on. Remember that checked luggage gets X-rayed with hardware much more potent than what's used for carry on. This allows you to use a harddrive-less tiny mini-itx motherboard, case, and something like the P4 930. A 300 watt PSU should be plenty considering it's not powering neither graphics card nor hard drives. The optical media, if any, can be external as well.

So there you go. This may be doable after all. This got me re-thinking my own solution...

Time to head over to the cases & cooling forum for their take on the subject.

 

[robertk2012]

I honestly would go matx and pick up a x2. Intel mobile solutions on a desktop will be much more expensive as they have shown to be in the past. Now there is some lower power AM2s that have been released I think but I couldnt make a reccomendation on a good board.

 

[pcoffman]

Originally posted by: v8envy
Just about any modern P4 laptop will have the same kind of 64 bit support as an AMD laptop

These are very rare, if they exists at all. If you have to have a 64-bit notebook processor, and if you have to have it now, AMD is about your only option. The mobile Core 2 Duo will have EM64T. It should be available in August.

... 25% better than your internal laptop hard drives (possible exception: the 160 gig Seagate perpendicular drives that just came out.

While the new Seagate notebook drive has PRT, which should make it faster, keep in mind that it also spins only at 5400 RPM, which makes it slower. The chief selling point of the new drive is its capacity, not its speed.

I'd use the new Seagate 750G perpendicular drive in that enclosure

This is a great performing drive.