Which card setup is right for me.

[wh0racle]

Hello, I am building a new PC with:
E8400
2x2gb PC6400 800mhz ram
750gb Seagate Caviar
Gigabyte GA35-DS3L mobo (a different one if I want multi GPU).

First off, I mainly play MMORPG's, which are a lot more demanding than FPS games (due to seamless loading). It annoys me very much so to turn down settings because my comp cant handle it .

I will be wanting it optimized for the game Aion (a new NCSoft MMO coming out...I know its hard/impossible to do that now because the game has just finished closed beta)...But to get the idea, it has the best graphics of any MMO yet, including AoC and Warhammer. It is on the Crytek engine, and developed by NCSoft (their last developed game was Lineage 2, 5 years ago). The beta is also in Korea, so its hard to get benchmarks or even general ideas on how much the fps drops in mass PvP.

Now about the problem with MMO's...L2 is a 5 year old game on the Unreal 2 engine...an 8800GT can hardly handle that game on max settings/eye candy in a mass pvp (basically a fight involving dozens or hundreds of players)...I have a friend who plays it with an E8200, 2x2gb ram and an 8800gt, and he drops below 30 fps..L2's graphics were ahead of its time, but you get the idea. This may not be a GPU problem, but I'm sure it still contributes...Another example is on Tabula Rasa, (another NCSoft game, however it was developed by a different company)...I know someone with a 4850 who gets 70-90FPS on max settings, however in a CP (a control point, kind of like in BF2 or something, NPC mobs are scripted to attack, and there can be dozens of them on the screen, with other players and all the animations and such) he can drop to 30 FPS.

When I play, I like to take fraps of my PvP fights, and turn them into movies...So all I am shooting for is a minimum of 30 FPS under all circumstances, that would be frapsing a PvP of a hundred or so players while maintaining atleast 30 fps (i will probably have my max fps capped so it doesnt jump around so much).

Now, all of that being said, I dont want to spend all that much...I would say the max I would spend is $400 for 4850CF. What I'm wondering is for a game style like this (I dont really care about shooters or anything) what would be the best setup? I am considering right now a 4850 (but I doubt this will be strong enough), a 4870, 8800gt SLI, or 4850 cf...My only problem is I will have to order the 4870 if I get that, which really isnt that big of a deal, I'd just prefer not to since I am playing on an old amd x2 with a 7600gt that has a blown up capacitor ...Also Aion will not be released til early 2009, so I'm inclined to think maybe one 4870 now, and another later...I really need a new comp asap.

I will be playing on a 22" LCD at 1650x1080. The drop in fps comes from loading all of the other players who are moving around and doing animations...so it may not be a GPU problem...is there somewhere else the money could be better spent? Like faster ram, more ram (although I heard anything above 4gb will cause skips), or maybe a raptor HD?

Thanks.


edit: forgot to mention I have 2 PSU's I can use if 1 is not enough, an Enermax EG565 as my main one, and also an Apevia 500W (clear one with LED's, not sure on the model name)
and my case is a green machine, or green monster or whatever...plenty of airflow.
(case: http://img65.imageshack.us/img.../03closedcase2gx9.jpg) there are 2 case fans on the front bottom, and 2 on the back right in line with the CPU cooler...Its also gigantic

 

[myocardia]

Welcome to anandtech. I'm not sure who told you that MMORPG's require more GPU power than an FPS*, but they don't. They just require alot more CPU power, and depending on the game, they can require up to the same amount of GPU power as a shooter. Overclock that E8400 a bit, and you'll likely never drop below ~100 FPS at a CP in Tabula Rasa, if you pair it with a 4870 @ 1680x1050, with averages much higher. BTW, I'd recommend a 4870, if you can afford one, and either a 9800GTX or a 4850, if you can't.

Oh, and how well any current hardware is going to handle a game that's released in 2009 is anyone's guess.




*First Person Shooter, not Frames Per Second, in this instance

 

[MarcVenice]

Do you need to upgrade right now? It's a tough choice, because multi gpu requires a more expensive mobo, although p45 mobo's aint that expensive, and a more powerfull PSU. And we simply don't know what will run Aion best ... You could just buy a HD4850, it will be great for now, and hopefully it runs Aion the way you want it. But if it doesn't, you could always add a HD4870. P45 mobo's arent that expensive, only problem will be the PSU.

 

[darckhart]

i've been playing gwen, and the only slowdowns i notice are, of course, in town. i'm agreeing with the recommendation for more cpu power as i noticed a marked jump in performance from oc'ing my cpu (but i bet your e8400 can get much higher clockspeed than i can on my quad), not so much from increased ram (but it seems you've maxed that out already anyway unless you're running vista and not xp like me). i am considering 4870 down the road since my mobo is based on p35 (i assume yours is also), so i dunno how you wanted to 4850CF unless you're wanting a new mobo or a 4850x2...

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: myocardia
Welcome to anandtech. I'm not sure who told you that MMORPG's require more GPU power than an FPS*, but they don't. They just require alot more CPU power, and depending on the game, they can require up to the same amount of GPU power as a shooter. Overclock that E8400 a bit, and you'll likely never drop below ~100 FPS at a CP in Tabula Rasa, if you pair it with a 4870 @ 1680x1050, with averages much higher. BTW, I'd recommend a 4870, if you can afford one, and either a 9800GTX or a 4850, if you can't.

Oh, and how well any current hardware is going to handle a game that's released in 2009 is anyone's guess.




*First Person Shooter, not Frames Per Second, in this instance

Yep, that's very true with needing a powerful CPU for MMOs. This holds true even in older titles like FFXI and WoW which are certainly dated in terms of graphics.

Some other suggestions based on the OP:

1) 64-bit Vista and 4GB+ RAM. MMOs love RAM. Depending on the game, there will be less streaming of textures and more caching of data, which can greatly reduce load times. This is especially true for revisits/reloads to the same area.

2) Fast Storage Subsystem. Fastest you can afford really, Velociraptors, Large Platters in RAID 0, SSDs, etc. These can also cut down on load times and make any HDD thrashing less noticeable. For a scratch/storage disk for FRAPs, a fast large platter drive is sufficient although you'll still see a benefit from going to a faster solution depending on resolution and quality/bit rate.

3) Quad Core CPU. Most games do not need a Quad. However, since you said you like to FRAPs battles, a Quad core will benefit you greatly as recording with FRAPs on a Dual Core can bring your system to a crawl if a game is already pegging your Dual Core. There's also the benefit of running multiple game instances on the same PC which allows you to self-mule, PL yourself, 2-box another toon etc.

I'd agree with the others though. There is absolutely no point in building a system today for a game that isn't even in open Beta, especially if you're not sure if you'll be in the Beta or not. Also you mentioned its being built on CryEngine, is that 1 or 2? If its 2, definitely put it on hold as you can guarantee yourself anything built on that today is still only going to run the game marginally well.

 

[wh0racle]

Thank you for the info, I will have vista 64 bit with 2x2gb of ram (is any more worth it? I would also always prefer 2 dimms over 4 unless they come out with quad channel or something)..Is any more than 4gb of ram usefull? I was told it would cause memory skips.

Also keep in mind I'm going to be using a monitor that has max 1650x1080. I was looking at benchmarks, and it seems for the most part at resolutions that low, 4870 CF is not much more beneficial than 4850 in cf unless you crank the resolution up, and both are leaps ahead of a single card.
I desperately need a new GPU right now, as mine has a blown capacitor and is causing crashes/power consumption problems...But atm I am only playing Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2 and the odd shooter like CoD4, Americas Army, BF2 and HL2, and my CPU/Ram can handle them well enough.

I never new MMO's were such CP hogs, and that fraps would run a lot faster on a quad core...I did a lot of research and decided E8400 over Q6600/6700 for gaming, beause of power consumption, temperature, and that I didnt think the Q6 series was any more future proof, or better in performance for gaming alone, they help in video editing, but when I do that stuff on Vegas I dont really use my comp for anything else except for maybe browsing the internet/music. So which CPU/mobo would you recommend? I doubt I will be able to afford a Nehalem core when they are released, but I'm sure the prices in others will drop...Maybe a Q9450 and a P45 mobo (Which one would be best for cf?).

I plan on keeping this comp for 2 years, then I'll be done school and able to build a beast. Also I have 2 PSU's that will both fit in my case...one is an Enermax EG565, the other an Apevia 500W.

My budget is somewhat limited. I know raptors increase loading speed greatly, but what would be more beneficial, keeping the E8400, and getting a Raptor, or getting a quad and using my 750gb seagate?


Aion is on the cry1 engine (same as farcry). But MMO's seem to be a lot more demanding on your computer. NCSoft seems to do a good job with the demand a computer needs...for example on L2 5 years ago I was able to run it on an AMD Duron 700mhz, with a radeon 7500 and 256mb of ram on lowest settings. Aion will be more demanding with all the eye candy on than any other MMO ever, yet I'm sure with everything turned low, old comps will still be able to run it...My only real concern is it could end up being one of those games where maybe NVIDIA cards will own and be much faster than AMD or something...it happens.

 

[richwenzel]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: myocardia
Welcome to anandtech. I'm not sure who told you that MMORPG's require more GPU power than an FPS*, but they don't. They just require alot more CPU power, and depending on the game, they can require up to the same amount of GPU power as a shooter. Overclock that E8400 a bit, and you'll likely never drop below ~100 FPS at a CP in Tabula Rasa, if you pair it with a 4870 @ 1680x1050, with averages much higher. BTW, I'd recommend a 4870, if you can afford one, and either a 9800GTX or a 4850, if you can't.

Oh, and how well any current hardware is going to handle a game that's released in 2009 is anyone's guess.




*First Person Shooter, not Frames Per Second, in this instance

Yep, that's very true with needing a powerful CPU for MMOs. This holds true even in older titles like FFXI and WoW which are certainly dated in terms of graphics.

Some other suggestions based on the OP:

1) 64-bit Vista and 4GB+ RAM. MMOs love RAM. Depending on the game, there will be less streaming of textures and more caching of data, which can greatly reduce load times. This is especially true for revisits/reloads to the same area.

2) Fast Storage Subsystem. Fastest you can afford really, Velociraptors, Large Platters in RAID 0, SSDs, etc. These can also cut down on load times and make any HDD thrashing less noticeable. For a scratch/storage disk for FRAPs, a fast large platter drive is sufficient although you'll still see a benefit from going to a faster solution depending on resolution and quality/bit rate.

3) Quad Core CPU. Most games do not need a Quad. However, since you said you like to FRAPs battles, a Quad core will benefit you greatly as recording with FRAPs on a Dual Core can bring your system to a crawl if a game is already pegging your Dual Core. There's also the benefit of running multiple game instances on the same PC which allows you to self-mule, PL yourself, 2-box another toon etc.

I'd agree with the others though. There is absolutely no point in building a system today for a game that isn't even in open Beta, especially if you're not sure if you'll be in the Beta or not. Also you mentioned its being built on CryEngine, is that 1 or 2? If its 2, definitely put it on hold as you can guarantee yourself anything built on that today is still only going to run the game marginally well.

My system is basically what it says in my sig, just some minor upgrades...in WoW, yes, its totally cpu dependent. upgrading a graphics card on a p4 got me almost nowhere. However, this is not true in AoC...In AoC, this machine pulled 20-25 frames on high settings.

So while I agree most mmo's dont need it, some do.

 

[wh0racle]

I think whats demanding is the constant loading...

For example if you were to run out into a desolate part of AoC, maybe an instance or something with no other players, it would play similar to a FPS game, aslong as everything was pre-loaded...but when you're playing out in the world, maybe you goto a siege or something (if AoC has something like that), and a hundred players show up to fight, well loading all those players causes stress and will drop your 20-25FPS down to 10-15, which isnt so much related to the GPU.

 

[richwenzel]

my pc is an oc'd 8400 to 3.9ghz, other online games with more players and more information being sent, dont bog me down.

 

[myocardia]

wh0racle, when you're recording with FRAPS, you are recording onto a separate hard drive, aren't you? That alone would make a pretty sizable performance difference, I'm sure. I know that with video editing/transcoding, outputting to a second hard drive can come close to doubling performance.

And if you've already bought an E8400, it will be fine. FRAPS doesn't use alot of CPU power. I mean, sure you'll have 5 or 10% slower FPS while you're running it, but if you were getting ~75 FPS to begin with, how big of a deal is losing 3.5-7 FPS?

Originally posted by: richwenzel
So while I agree most mmo's dont need it, some do.

You're right, that's why I said, "They just require alot more CPU power, and depending on the game, they can require up to the same amount of GPU power as a shooter." BTW, I probably should have added that I meant a nice looking shooter, like FarCry, F.E.A.R., Crysis, etc.

 

[wh0racle]

I record on the same hard drive, however I have a seperate 80 gig I could record to, it it would reduce the FPS drop.

 

[CreasianDevaili]

MMORPGS really do require that you have a great CPU with high clocks and keep your system ram/gpu hand in hand most times. While AoC is a small exception to this it is often CPU then the ram/gpu.

MMORPGs are also horrid for one thing. Memory leaks. Due to the nature of how the game is designed memory leaks can crash even the best machine. It is often when not a matter or if. 2gb is enough for vista and you will learn how to work it but 4gb is safer overall.

OC your e8400 to 3.6-3.8ghz and you will be just fine. I would go with a 4870 or 260gtx if you plan to do aion instead of the 4850. You will also want 2-4gb depending on if your going to do xp or vista.

 

[wh0racle]

the gtx260 is here for sale...$330, but the 4870 smashes it in almost everything

 

[MarcVenice]

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/38433.html

Just look at the trailer. Doesn't look THAT demanding at all. I remember how GuildWars ran just fine on most older hardware, I bet Aion will run like a dream on a HD4870 or GTX260.

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/38433.html

Just look at the trailer. Doesn't look THAT demanding at all. I remember how GuildWars ran just fine on most older hardware, I bet Aion will run like a dream on a HD4870 or GTX260.

Yeah does not look demanding at all, you will be fine with a 4850.

 

[wh0racle]

http://images.anandtech.com/ga...3/ageofconan_large.png GTX260 is just over 30 fps in AoC, which is probably slightly more demanding.

4850 CF is by far the best bang for buck on that list. Its even with GTX280 SLI, lol.


And AoC:http://community.ageofconan.co...ofconan_october_03.jpg
http://community.ageofconan.co...ONTENT/November_24.jpg
Aion: http://gfx.nihilum.mousesports.com/picturedb/21/535.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/user94304/Brown_Armor02.jpg

The textures in that vid look like theyre on low...these might be better to gauge

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/38423.html
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/38425.html

 

[z1ggy]

On a 22' in monitor I don't think you will really need CF. Honestly one 4870 is going to be fine for you..Like others say.. its going to be more about your cpu.. so make sure you get sufficient cooling and OC it as much as you feel comfortable. See Graysky's Oc guide to really fine tune your OC once you get it working.

 

[wh0racle]

I dont see how CF doesnt help 22" or 1680x1050 as in that benchmark 2 4850's in CF get a 45-68% FPS boost over a GTX260, 4870 or GT280.

And is the E8400 still worth it? Or should I go for something else?

 

[wh0racle]

hmm I did some research and I think 4850 CF is the best higher end bang for your buck.

at only $200 per card, if you look at these (eye candy on all but crysis):
http://images.anandtech.com/ga...s/163/crysis_large.png
http://images.anandtech.com/ga...3/ageofconan_large.png
http://images.anandtech.com/ga...ies/163/GRID_large.png
http://images.anandtech.com/ga...163/oblivion_large.png

You can see aside from oblivion theres no no real discernible difference other than a few FPS between 4870 CF, or even GTX280 SLI, which it is even beating in some cases.

Also if you factor in this power consumption chart http://images.anandtech.com/gr...071308223626/17191.png ... you'll see that 4850 CF takes the same power as most single cards, and far less than other SLI/CF combos.
4850CF is 2/3 the price of 4870CF/GTX260SLI, and the added price of the honking PSU you'd need to run other cards, imo its an unreal deal for that price considering in a lot of games you might be 3-5 FPS behind 4870CF, and in a lot of cases are beating both GTX260SLI and GTX280SLI. I think 4850CF is an underrated setup with all of that considered.


So I think I've made up my mind on the video cards...that leaves the CPU and mobo. Would there really be a big difference between a quad core like a Q6700 loading all that stuff compared to the E8400, which is somewhat easier to OC....and how big of a difference would there be between something like a Q9450/9400? In any case what would be the best mobo to get for CF?

 

[wh0racle]

so does anyone know for MMORPG's if a faster clock rate on each processor would be better? or better multithreading.

I can OC an E8400, will there really be any noticeable performance gain to go from an E8400 to a Q9450?...If quad cores are better, would a Q6600 or Q9300 be worth it over the E8400?

 

[Harabec]

IMO...like others often say, future-proofing is silly. Prices drop SO fast it isn't worth it. The E8400 is cheap and very effective, thats what I have now (with a 4850).
Just upgrade in a year or two for something much more powerful if you decide you really need it.
That's assuming you're $$$ limited, of course.

 

[faxon]

one thing you may want to do is get a SSD around the time the game comes out. i played EQ2 for 4 years, and in that time i killed an older PATA Barracuda because of all the loading i was doing on it, and how slow it was. a SSD has obsurdly fast load times, and they should be considerably cheaper by then than they are now, what with intel entering the SSD market by then. the single biggest bottleneck you are going to run into after CPU power is going to be disk read times playing MMOs, but a SSD should clear that up in a hurry.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: richwenzel
My system is basically what it says in my sig, just some minor upgrades...in WoW, yes, its totally cpu dependent. upgrading a graphics card on a p4 got me almost nowhere. However, this is not true in AoC...In AoC, this machine pulled 20-25 frames on high settings.

So while I agree most mmo's dont need it, some do.

I didn't mention AoC, but it can actually be both CPU and GPU limited. There's a few reviews out with 4870X2 and 4870X2 CF that show FPS capping out around 55 avg from 1680 to 2560 even with AA. Adding additional GPUs do not increase FPS, it just allows for more "free AA".

Originally posted by: myocardia
wh0racle, when you're recording with FRAPS, you are recording onto a separate hard drive, aren't you? That alone would make a pretty sizable performance difference, I'm sure. I know that with video editing/transcoding, outputting to a second hard drive can come close to doubling performance.

And if you've already bought an E8400, it will be fine. FRAPS doesn't use alot of CPU power. I mean, sure you'll have 5 or 10% slower FPS while you're running it, but if you were getting ~75 FPS to begin with, how big of a deal is losing 3.5-7 FPS?

Originally posted by: richwenzel
So while I agree most mmo's dont need it, some do.

You're right, that's why I said, "They just require alot more CPU power, and depending on the game, they can require up to the same amount of GPU power as a shooter." BTW, I probably should have added that I meant a nice looking shooter, like FarCry, F.E.A.R., Crysis, etc.

FRAPs in Vista is actually very CPU intensive, it'll peg a single Core @ 3.0GHz to 100% when recording at full resolution 1920x1200 @ 30FPS. On a Dual Core, this translates into choppy/unplayable frame rates while playing any game that pegs a single core. On a Quad Core, everything is much smoother and best if you set the game to 3 core affinity and FRAPs to 1 core for itself.

 

[wh0racle]

One final thing about the CPU's (i've been holding off as long as possible on getting a new comp lol), keep in mind the heaviest multi-application running i will be doing is this game + fraps. Other then that I dont want to do any multi tasking other than running MSN Messenger and Winamp. An E8400/8500 Still has higher clock speed than say a Q9450, I know multi-threading in games isnt that great yet, as well as windows. If running Vista 64 bit am I really going to notice a performance boost on a Q9450 over an E8500? Is the game actually going to be split up among the processors? I can record to a second HD with fraps, and I think I am going to get a SSD drive, which leads me to my next questions...Number 1 are SSD's in Raid 0 going to give a lot more performance than a single one? Does it work like Dual channel ram or something...would 2x16gb SSD's be a lot better than 1x32gb? Do SSD's slow down as they get closer to 100% capacity? For best performance would you put the OS and the game both on the SSD? Also on newegg for example there is a 32gb SSD SATA2 from RiDATA for like $160 or something, they also list an almost identical one, except it just says IDE and looks like a regular ATA socket, but it is $475...why is that? Is there something better about it?

Also 1 last question is about OS's. I know Vista has better multithreading than XP, but for the purpose of Gaming alone (and fraps), would XP 64 bit give better performance over Vista 64 bit?


Thanks for all the help.