Where's the proof that Pres. Bush lied?
- Thread starter Riprorin
- Start date
Where's the proof that Pres. Bush reported anything other than the conclusions of major intelligence services?
So, are you a paid Kerry staffer or just a volunteer?
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
I am neither, but I can tell you that State and senior analysts from the CIA were telling Tenet and his superiors that they were presenting information in a way that was not reflective if the way they saw it. That perspective was disregarded. It was not a small voice. BTW it was reported in the press before the war. Was it a lie, or just a bad judgement? I can't PROVE it either way, however to say that intel was not provided accurately projecting the current situation is disingenuous.
Let's just apply the normal burden of proof- anybody making an assertion needs to prove it.
Regarding WMD's- "We have Proof!" then, after a series of obfuscations, they're looking for intent to develop WMD weapons related activities...
Regarding Al Qaeda and the Iraqis- "Links! We got your red-hot links!" then crickets...
Regarding Niger uranium... well, that doesn't count, right? That was, uhh, err, British intelligence, even though the CIA said it was bunk, and the Bushies decided not to listen... but they outed a CIA operative as revenge against her rat-fink hubby...
If the guy's not a liar, then he's a dupe- either way, he has no business leading our great nation...
Regarding WMD's- "We have Proof!" then, after a series of obfuscations, they're looking for intent to develop WMD weapons related activities...
Regarding Al Qaeda and the Iraqis- "Links! We got your red-hot links!" then crickets...
Regarding Niger uranium... well, that doesn't count, right? That was, uhh, err, British intelligence, even though the CIA said it was bunk, and the Bushies decided not to listen... but they outed a CIA operative as revenge against her rat-fink hubby...
If the guy's not a liar, then he's a dupe- either way, he has no business leading our great nation...
His mischaracterized or misinterpreted the findings of the major intelligence services. He presented their conclusions as fact when they were probable at best. To date none of their finding have been proven true. He may not be a liar, but it certainly makes him incompetent.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Riprorin, I'm sorry you're a relative newbie in P&N, but this issue has been debated in depth a hundred times. If you really want the answer, read some of the old threads. I'm sure you'll find several just by searching on "lie".
If, on the other hand, your only purpose is to troll, please go back to OT where you belong. Your claim that Bush only reported "the conclusions of major intelligence services" is revisionist history at its worst. He took an active role in selling his invasion by deceiving both Congress and the American public. If you read some of those old threads, you'll find long, detailed, well-documented lists of how Bush participated in this deception. You will find lengthy debate about the accuracy and significance of each claim. You will undoubtedly not change your opinion -- that requires an open mind -- but at least you will know why we say Bush lied.
If, on the other hand, your only purpose is to troll, please go back to OT where you belong. Your claim that Bush only reported "the conclusions of major intelligence services" is revisionist history at its worst. He took an active role in selling his invasion by deceiving both Congress and the American public. If you read some of those old threads, you'll find long, detailed, well-documented lists of how Bush participated in this deception. You will find lengthy debate about the accuracy and significance of each claim. You will undoubtedly not change your opinion -- that requires an open mind -- but at least you will know why we say Bush lied.
riprorin, if it comes from bush or helps bush then its a lie, if it hurts bush or comes from a democrap then its 100% truthful. or do you not follow the same logic as the democraps?
the fact of the matter is bush didnt lie but the democraps realize that their only hope of winning in november is if they can paint him as a liar.
speaking of liars, its rather ironic that clarke flat out contradicts a memo he wrote ~2yrs ago to the 9/11 panel and democraps believe every word he says. all too funny...
And I'm not a Republican.
If it can be proved that Pres. Bush lied, let the impreachment proceedings begin. If not, let's just stop the propoganda.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
What needs to happen is an unfettered investigation. Unfortunately the Dems will be looking to hang, and the Reps anxious to bury everything. Has anyone seen anything like a serious suggestion where all involved parties are examined? I have not, nor do I think there will be. This will be swept under the rug regardless of culpability, or lack thereof. I think that unfortunate.
translation: blah blah blah "anyone who disagree with me is a stupid troll" blah blah blah...your only open minded if you beleive as i do"
The proof bush lied is the complete lack of WMD in Iraq and the lack of evidence presented to the american public that would demostarte to a responoble person that Iraq had WMD and back up bush's other tall tales.
It's here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1178547,00.html
He's getting a good laugh out of folks falling for it too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1178547,00.html
He's getting a good laugh out of folks falling for it too.
Here's what Pres. Clinton had to say about Iraq and WMDs:
So What's New, Bill Clinton Said Iraq Had WMD
Clinton believes Iraq had weapons of mass destruction: Portugal PM
So, do you Dems think that Clinton lied too?
So What's New, Bill Clinton Said Iraq Had WMD
Clinton believes Iraq had weapons of mass destruction: Portugal PM
So, do you Dems think that Clinton lied too?
Hehe, at least Clinton can say ops, my bad, bad info and no harm done. He didn't invade a country, kill tens of thousands people in that country, cause over 600 American death and over thusands seriously injured, and have our troop stuck in a $hit hole.
I. CLINTON SIGNS IRAQ LIBERATION ACT
October 31, 1998
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
October 31, 1998
Statement by thePpresident
Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act of
1998." This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that
the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition
that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality
of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime
in Baghdad now offers.
Let me be clear on what the U.S. objectives are:
The United States wants Iraq to rejoin the family of nations as a
freedom-loving and law-abiding member. This is in our interest and that
of our allies within the region.
The United States favors an Iraq that offers its people freedom
at home. I categorically reject arguments that this is unattainable
due to Iraq's history or its ethnic or sectarian make-up. Iraqis
deserve and desire freedom like everyone else.
The United States looks forward to a democratically supported
regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the
reintegration of Iraq into normal international life.
My Administration has pursued, and will continue to pursue, these
objectives through active application of all relevant United Nations
Security Council resolutions. The evidence is overwhelming that such
changes will not happen under the current Iraq leadership.
In the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the
Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in
check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of
the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition
groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a
popularly supported government.
On October 21, 1998, I signed into law the Omnibus Consolidated
and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, which made $8
million available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition.
This assistance is intended to help the democratic opposition unify,
work together more effectively, and articulate the aspirations of the
Iraqi people for a pluralistic, participatory political system that will
include all of Iraq's diverse ethnic and religious groups. As required
by the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for FY 1998 (Public Law
105-174), the Department of State submitted a report to the Congress on
plans to establish a program to support the democratic opposition. My
Administration, as required by that statute, has also begun to implement
a program to compile information regarding allegations of genocide,
crimes against humanity, and war crimes by Iraq's current leaders as a
step towards bringing to justice those directly responsible for such
acts.
The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional,
discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to
further the objectives I outlined above. There are, of course, other
important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of
U.N. Security Council support [for] efforts to eliminate Iraq's
prohibited weapons and missile programs and economic sanctions that
continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to
international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi
opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives
as well.
Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can
effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those
observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
October 31, 1998
II. '99 APPROPRIATIONS BILL, IRAQ OPPOSITION
Sec. 590. Iraq Opposition
The conference agreement includes a provision proposed by the Senate
that, notwithstanding any other provision of law, of the funds made
available in this Act and any prior Acts making appropriations for
foreign operations, not less than $8,000,000 shall be made available for
assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition. Of this amount, not less
than $3,000,000 should be made available as a grant for the Iraqi
National Congress. The conferees also direct the Administration to
provide not less than $3,000,000 as a grant to the Iraqi Campaign to
Indict Iraqi War Criminals to be used to compile information to support
the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes. The conferees direct
the Administration to provide not less than $2,000,000 for the conduct
of activities by the Iraqi democratic opposition inside Iraq. The
conferees also direct the Secretary of State to submit a detailed report
to the Committees on Appropriations thirty days after the enactment of
this Act on the implementation of these activities.
III. INC WELCOMES IRAQ LIBERATION ACT
INC Welcomes President Clinton's Signature of the Iraq Liberation Act
London (October 31, 1998)
Following is a statement by Ahmad Chalabi, President of the Executive
Council of the Iraqi National Congress.
Saddam has shown once again that he is irredeemable. His defiance of
the United Nations Security Council and his rejection of all reasonable
attempts to resolve the impasse, which he made, demonstrate that he has
no concern for the well being of the Iraqi people. He puts his power
megalomania above the life and happiness of the Iraqi people.
The Iraqi people are the first to suffer from the expulsion of UNSCOM
and the cessation of all its activities. They have repeatedly been the
victims of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. They call for the
elimination of weapons of mass destruction from Iraq.
Saddam has pushed further the day when sanctions on Iraq would be
lifted. He has challenged the combined will of the international
community and thus he has opened the door for UN action against Iraq
under Chapter VII resolutions. He is responsible.
Today, October 31, 1998 is a great day for the Iraqi people. Today
President Clinton signed into law the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. The
American people have given their support for the end of dictatorship and
for democracy in Iraq. The INC welcomes this courageous and historic
action by President Clinton and thanks him for it.
I will begin immediate consultations with leaders in the INC and
others to work for a united response on how best to take advantage of
the provisions of the Iraq Liberation Act. We will present a united
front to maximize the chances of success. We look to President Clinton
to support and work with a united INC to achieve our common goals.
The INC has worked long and hard to energize the conscience of world
to the decades long suffering of the Iraqi people. We have worked hard
to persuade the US Congress for action to help the Iraqi people to
liberate themselves. We thank with gratitude the US Congress for their
support of democracy in Iraq. They have created a strong bond between
the people of the US and the people of Iraq in the pursuit of liberty.
Saddam is the problem and he cannot be part of any solution in Iraq.
Therefore, President Clinton's action today is the most appropriate
response to Saddam. Let him know that Iraqis will rise up to liberate
themselves from his totalitarian dictatorship and that the US is ready
to help their democratic forces with arms to do so. Only then will the
trail of tragedy in Iraq end. Only then will Iraq be free of weapons of
mass destruction.
Text
October 31, 1998
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
October 31, 1998
Statement by thePpresident
Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act of
1998." This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that
the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition
that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality
of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime
in Baghdad now offers.
Let me be clear on what the U.S. objectives are:
The United States wants Iraq to rejoin the family of nations as a
freedom-loving and law-abiding member. This is in our interest and that
of our allies within the region.
The United States favors an Iraq that offers its people freedom
at home. I categorically reject arguments that this is unattainable
due to Iraq's history or its ethnic or sectarian make-up. Iraqis
deserve and desire freedom like everyone else.
The United States looks forward to a democratically supported
regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the
reintegration of Iraq into normal international life.
My Administration has pursued, and will continue to pursue, these
objectives through active application of all relevant United Nations
Security Council resolutions. The evidence is overwhelming that such
changes will not happen under the current Iraq leadership.
In the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the
Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in
check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of
the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition
groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a
popularly supported government.
On October 21, 1998, I signed into law the Omnibus Consolidated
and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, which made $8
million available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition.
This assistance is intended to help the democratic opposition unify,
work together more effectively, and articulate the aspirations of the
Iraqi people for a pluralistic, participatory political system that will
include all of Iraq's diverse ethnic and religious groups. As required
by the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for FY 1998 (Public Law
105-174), the Department of State submitted a report to the Congress on
plans to establish a program to support the democratic opposition. My
Administration, as required by that statute, has also begun to implement
a program to compile information regarding allegations of genocide,
crimes against humanity, and war crimes by Iraq's current leaders as a
step towards bringing to justice those directly responsible for such
acts.
The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional,
discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to
further the objectives I outlined above. There are, of course, other
important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of
U.N. Security Council support [for] efforts to eliminate Iraq's
prohibited weapons and missile programs and economic sanctions that
continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to
international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi
opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives
as well.
Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can
effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those
observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
October 31, 1998
II. '99 APPROPRIATIONS BILL, IRAQ OPPOSITION
Sec. 590. Iraq Opposition
The conference agreement includes a provision proposed by the Senate
that, notwithstanding any other provision of law, of the funds made
available in this Act and any prior Acts making appropriations for
foreign operations, not less than $8,000,000 shall be made available for
assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition. Of this amount, not less
than $3,000,000 should be made available as a grant for the Iraqi
National Congress. The conferees also direct the Administration to
provide not less than $3,000,000 as a grant to the Iraqi Campaign to
Indict Iraqi War Criminals to be used to compile information to support
the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes. The conferees direct
the Administration to provide not less than $2,000,000 for the conduct
of activities by the Iraqi democratic opposition inside Iraq. The
conferees also direct the Secretary of State to submit a detailed report
to the Committees on Appropriations thirty days after the enactment of
this Act on the implementation of these activities.
III. INC WELCOMES IRAQ LIBERATION ACT
INC Welcomes President Clinton's Signature of the Iraq Liberation Act
London (October 31, 1998)
Following is a statement by Ahmad Chalabi, President of the Executive
Council of the Iraqi National Congress.
Saddam has shown once again that he is irredeemable. His defiance of
the United Nations Security Council and his rejection of all reasonable
attempts to resolve the impasse, which he made, demonstrate that he has
no concern for the well being of the Iraqi people. He puts his power
megalomania above the life and happiness of the Iraqi people.
The Iraqi people are the first to suffer from the expulsion of UNSCOM
and the cessation of all its activities. They have repeatedly been the
victims of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. They call for the
elimination of weapons of mass destruction from Iraq.
Saddam has pushed further the day when sanctions on Iraq would be
lifted. He has challenged the combined will of the international
community and thus he has opened the door for UN action against Iraq
under Chapter VII resolutions. He is responsible.
Today, October 31, 1998 is a great day for the Iraqi people. Today
President Clinton signed into law the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. The
American people have given their support for the end of dictatorship and
for democracy in Iraq. The INC welcomes this courageous and historic
action by President Clinton and thanks him for it.
I will begin immediate consultations with leaders in the INC and
others to work for a united response on how best to take advantage of
the provisions of the Iraq Liberation Act. We will present a united
front to maximize the chances of success. We look to President Clinton
to support and work with a united INC to achieve our common goals.
The INC has worked long and hard to energize the conscience of world
to the decades long suffering of the Iraqi people. We have worked hard
to persuade the US Congress for action to help the Iraqi people to
liberate themselves. We thank with gratitude the US Congress for their
support of democracy in Iraq. They have created a strong bond between
the people of the US and the people of Iraq in the pursuit of liberty.
Saddam is the problem and he cannot be part of any solution in Iraq.
Therefore, President Clinton's action today is the most appropriate
response to Saddam. Let him know that Iraqis will rise up to liberate
themselves from his totalitarian dictatorship and that the US is ready
to help their democratic forces with arms to do so. Only then will the
trail of tragedy in Iraq end. Only then will Iraq be free of weapons of
mass destruction.
Text
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Actually, you are a stupid troll. Please slink back under your bridge until you have something worthwhile to say. I won't wait up.
As I've said before, I am simply frustrated that so many P&N newbies jump in and immediately start asserting their ignorance. Like so much of America, they are completely clueless about the depth of information covered here, but they make no effort to educate themselves. Instead, they start trotting out all the same issues that have consumed thousands of pages here already. Riprorin is only one of the more recent examples. If you check his posting history, I think you will find this isn't his first.
Here's two lies spoke today within 10 minutes of each other:
CLAIM:
"The [August 6, 2001] PDB was no indication of a terrorist threat...[It] said nothing about an attack on America."
- President George W. Bush, 4/11/04
FACT:
"[There are] patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York...The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the US that it considers Bin Ladin-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our Embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives."
- Presidential Daily Briefing, August 6, 2001
CLAIM:
"I asked the intelligence agency to analyze the data to tell me whether or not we faced a threat internally, like they thought we had faced a threat in other parts of the world. That's what the PDB request was."
- President George W. Bush, 4/11/04
FACT:
According to the CIA, the briefing "was not requested by President Bush." As commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste disclosed, "the CIA informed the panel that the author of the briefing does not recall such a request from Bush and that the idea to compile the briefing came from within the CIA."
- Washington Post, 3/25/04
CLAIM:
"The [August 6, 2001] PDB was no indication of a terrorist threat...[It] said nothing about an attack on America."
- President George W. Bush, 4/11/04
FACT:
"[There are] patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York...The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the US that it considers Bin Ladin-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our Embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives."
- Presidential Daily Briefing, August 6, 2001
CLAIM:
"I asked the intelligence agency to analyze the data to tell me whether or not we faced a threat internally, like they thought we had faced a threat in other parts of the world. That's what the PDB request was."
- President George W. Bush, 4/11/04
FACT:
According to the CIA, the briefing "was not requested by President Bush." As commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste disclosed, "the CIA informed the panel that the author of the briefing does not recall such a request from Bush and that the idea to compile the briefing came from within the CIA."
- Washington Post, 3/25/04
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