Where's Osama?

[Engineer]

We don't need Osama to reduce terrorism, do we?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I agree it would be symbolically important, but that's about it. I think it would create a lot more problems than it would solve for reasons I've already stated. I'm not sure why you insist on bringing Saddam into this, as it's clearly a bad analogy and irrelevant to anything I've said. Stop diverting! 😛

It's completely relevant! One of the main criticisms of the Iraq war was that Saddam could be contained and was being contained. Yet you're all for the invasion there but think containing bin Laden is ok.

You're being quite contradictory.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: conjur
It's completely relevant! One of the main criticisms of the Iraq war was that Saddam could be contained and was being contained. Yet you're all for the invasion there but think containing bin Laden is ok.

You're being quite contradictory.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
...

I don't give a rat's about Bush. I'm asking you to actually think logically instead of politically for a change.

Come on, it can't be THAT hard for you to quit playing the partisan for two minutes and actually think like a rational person, can it?

 

[dahunan]

$200,000,000,000 for Saddam *and his oil and land and PRIVATIZING and selling to US Corps his electricity, water, telephone etc...
and
$25,000,000 for Osama

hmmm

 

[CycloWizard]

Well, this thread demonstrates well what has been repeatedly claimed by the conservatives on this forum: every issue comes back to Iraq, oil, or 'stupid religious people' when you try to argue with the liberals. Funny that you can't even stick to the issue presented by the OP for two pages. Even funnier when you ARE the OP.

 

[dahunan]

Osama was all that Bush and the Neocons needed to Rape Iraq...

He has no value whatsoever anymore.. he is only important when Bush needs some support at the voting booth or some help in the Polls

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Osama was all that Bush and the Neocons needed to Rape Iraq...

He has no value whatsoever anymore.. he is only important when Bush needs some support at the voting booth or some help in the Polls

BTW, isn't it about time Bush and Co. come out with another canned OBL tape?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
You presume to know much about the operational ability of OBL. I assume you've derived such an assessment from various reports which likely originated inside our Intel orgs? Which as we know have been batting a fairly low average when it comes to accurate intel over the past 3-4 years now. Further, you insist we've made him "impotent" -- again a big assumption on your part. I would argue that we have no freaking clue what OBL is up to, which is why it's quite logical to pursue and capture him. Why take chances?

I presume to know what I have seen. When was the last time we even got a video out of the guy, much less an attack? If he wanted to really hurt us, now would be the time. The proof is in the pudding, I suppose.

Well, just like your challenge to the OP concerning what his recommendations would be for the military commanders, I'm challenging your knowledge of the actual intel. Of course, what you've seen is probably about 1% of what's really going on. In other words, your actual knowledge of OBL and/or his operational capabilities is probably about nil.

It's interesting that you're proposing containment in this instance. By your logic, perhaps we should have pursued the same strategy with Saddam? I would argue, however that capturing OBL is important symbolically because of his obvious implication in 9/11. I mean are you really forgetting that or are you just willing to let it go? OBL attacked us and killed thousands, Saddam did not.

I agree it would be symbolically important, but that's about it. I think it would create a lot more problems than it would solve for reasons I've already stated. I'm not sure why you insist on bringing Saddam into this, as it's clearly a bad analogy and irrelevant to anything I've said. Stop diverting! 😛

It's not a bad analogy! Your proposal to contain OBL is precisely the same strategy we had going with Saddam. Maybe you're just joking around, but I'm being quite serious. And as for it creating more problems, that's merely your crystal-ball read of the future. You really don't know, just like you don't know OBL's operational capacity. I tend to agree it might make a martyr out of him, but I think the point we would make on principal alone far outweighs any potential negatives. Capturing OBL and seeing justice served is what the American people deserve. No less.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
It's completely relevant! One of the main criticisms of the Iraq war was that Saddam could be contained and was being contained. Yet you're all for the invasion there but think containing bin Laden is ok.

You're being quite contradictory.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
...

I don't give a rat's about Bush. I'm asking you to actually think logically instead of politically for a change.

Come on, it can't be THAT hard for you to quit playing the partisan for two minutes and actually think like a rational person, can it?

WTF are you talking about?? This has nothing to do with partisan politics. It has everything to do with foreign policy and the use of our military.

You support containment re: bin Laden who is known to be responsible for thousands of deaths and the destruction of the WTC and four airplanes and damage to the Pentagon. Yet you don't support containment of Saddam who never threatened the US...ever.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Osama was all that Bush and the Neocons needed to Rape Iraq...

He has no value whatsoever anymore.. he is only important when Bush needs some support at the voting booth or some help in the Polls

Interesting to see how you forget to mention the fact that it was Saddam who literally raped his country for decades. Also interesting to see that you don't mention that we liberated the rape rooms, we freed the children who were imprisoned and we have set up a democratic government.

We have more good for Iraq than the loud mouth Europeans or the corrupt UN could do all these years. Maybe you also forgot the fact that Kofi and co. raped Iraq for a decade by a farce called oil for food, or more accurately, oil for fools.

Originally posted by: conjur
No takers? You don't say??? Hmm...could it be because this administration has no clue as to the mentality, mindset, culture, etc. of the Middle East and SW Asia?


Naaaaahhhh


Besides, we all know that bin Laden is not of concern and has been marginalized. The Propagandist told us so.

I'm sure the radical leftists such as yourself know the mentality, mindset and culture of the middle east. I'm also sure our military leaders who are actually on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq don't know a thing about local customs and traditions. Am I right?

By the way, its Central Asia. And you have no right calling ANYONE a propagandist since you're the biggest propagandist here.

Uhh...yeah. What I've been saying all along.

We should have stayed out of Iraq and focused on Afghanistan/Pakistan.

Also, forcing Musharraf to start dealing with the political strife within his own country and root out the terrorists within his own borders. Stop appeasing the terrorists.

I see you have nothing to add as usual, though.

Lets focus on Afghanistan and leave Iraq out just for a second.

Musharaff is a military dictator who controls his country through sheer force. There is no difference between him and Saddam except that he does not commit mass murder, or at least that we know of. Pakistan is one of the key countries which has supported and propped up radical Sunni islam for all these years. They were pro-Taliban and in many ways helped the Taliban stay in power. There were hundreds of thousands of Taliban and Al-qaeda ... where did they all go?

They were flown out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan by Pakistani airplanes. That is a fact. Of course there are Taliban and al-qaeda members hiding in the towns in Afghanistan and hiding in the mountains and caves, but a lot of them are in Pakistan. The Pakistani ISI, which is Pakistan's version of the FBI and CIA rolled into one, knows where they are but does nothing to catch them. The ISI is infested with radical Islamists who have a certain ideology which is similar to that of OBL. The former ISI chief even saved OBL's life from the missle strike of Bill Clinton. And Bush made Pakistan a a major non-NATO ally.

Thank you Pakistan.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Despite ravaging 2 countries and spending billions of dollars we still don't have bin Laden. At this point I'd say anybodies ideas are as good as our military commanders.

He was the person responsible for the WTC, so let's raise the reward and just keep raising it. 25 million is chicken feed compared to what the war has cost in, not to mention the people who've lost ther lives and been maimed.

Absolutely correct. It is a miserable failure on our part to not catch Bin Laden. He is still a very important figure in the Islamic world and is looked up to by many muslims. Many consider him immortal and a holy figure. By killing or capturing him, we may gain more fear or even respect in the muslim world. We must capture or kill OBL or this so-called war on terror will be a failure.

He is still the spiritual leader of al-qaeda, he is the main source of recruitment and he sends out secret signals to other worldwide terrorists to carry out attacks. To say he is not important is living in a fantasy world.

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Exactly. The fact that we have been totally unable to capture the man who organized the worst terrorist attack in US history, even after all this time, does not speak very highly of the skills of our military commanders. Look at the resources being devoted to Iraq. What would happen if we transfered those resources to finding bin Laden? I'm not saying run around in tanks looking for him, but transfer the money spent on tanks in Iraq into human intelligence in the Middle East, special forces teams that are better equiped at finding and capturing him, etc, etc.

There is a point at which "it's hard work" is not a defense. We really should have captured by bin Laden by now, the reasons we didn't amount to excuses, not justifications. And I agree about the reward. Make it $1 billion. See if that doesn't bring him in.

I don't think it has much to do with the skills of our military commanders. I consider them to be the best in the world and they have proved it by conducting such successful wars, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq. But you are correct that our intervention in Iraq has significantly reduced our attention on Afghanistan. The American public seems to have almost forgotten Afghanistan. Karzai only controls Kabul, remember that. Afghanistan is still controlled by warlords who swing in the direction that offers the most money and support. You are right, by not capturing OBL is a failure on the part of our leadership and shows how absurd this war on terror really is. If this was a true war on terror, we wouldn't have allies such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other despotic regimes and countries.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I just wanted to see what you would suggest. Since you clearly stated your disapproval of how our military experts are handling the situation, I knew you must have something. For myself, I don't care if we catch him or not. His little operation in Afghanistan was shut down, which was the real mission. If you think decomissioning him personally will have any effect on terrorism, then I would beg to differ.

OBL's operation was shut down in Afghanistan? Wow.

Afghanistan is still have a lawless country where anything happens and the government has ZERO control outside of Kabul. Al-qaeda still have operations in Afghanistan and so does the Taliban. We haven't shut anybody down. Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. They have simply moved elsewhere in the country or have moved next door to Pakistan. Al-qaeda is still strong and is looked up to by many muslims around the world. Osama is a very popular name in certain muslim countries and his t-shirts are selling out. We MUST capture or kill him or this war will be a FAILURE.

Remember Bush's exact words? "Capture or kill Osama Bin Laden"

Bush hasn't mentioned the word "Osama" in years. Wonder why ....

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: dahunan
Osama was all that Bush and the Neocons needed to Rape Iraq...

He has no value whatsoever anymore.. he is only important when Bush needs some support at the voting booth or some help in the Polls

Interesting to see how you forget to mention the fact that it was Saddam who literally raped his country for decades. Also interesting to see that you don't mention that we liberated the rape rooms, we freed the children who were imprisoned and we have set up a democratic government.

Forgetting about Abu Ghraib where MPs were ordered to commit atrocities against prisoners (many of whom were innocent)? All this done in the most infamous of Saddam's prisons? "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

We have more good for Iraq than the loud mouth Europeans or the corrupt UN could do all these years. Maybe you also forgot the fact that Kofi and co. raped Iraq for a decade by a farce called oil for food, or more accurately, oil for fools.

The oil-for-food scandal involving a Texas oil man? And the UN sanctions were put together with what major superpower's help?

Originally posted by: conjur
No takers? You don't say??? Hmm...could it be because this administration has no clue as to the mentality, mindset, culture, etc. of the Middle East and SW Asia?


Naaaaahhhh


Besides, we all know that bin Laden is not of concern and has been marginalized. The Propagandist told us so.

I'm sure the radical leftists such as yourself know the mentality, mindset and culture of the middle east. I'm also sure our military leaders who are actually on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq don't know a thing about local customs and traditions. Am I right?

A few do but the foot soldiers are rather ignorant of Muslim customs. And, btw, I'm a radical leftist? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

By the way, its Central Asia. And you have no right calling ANYONE a propagandist since you're the biggest propagandist here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia

The countries and territories in Southwest Asia include:

Afghanistan

And, ayup, the president is the king of propaganda. Chomsky's going to have a field day writing about this administration.

Uhh...yeah. What I've been saying all along.

We should have stayed out of Iraq and focused on Afghanistan/Pakistan.

Also, forcing Musharraf to start dealing with the political strife within his own country and root out the terrorists within his own borders. Stop appeasing the terrorists.

I see you have nothing to add as usual, though.

Lets focus on Afghanistan and leave Iraq out just for a second.

Musharaff is a military dictator who controls his country through sheer force. There is no difference between him and Saddam except that he does not commit mass murder, or at least that we know of. Pakistan is one of the key countries which has supported and propped up radical Sunni islam for all these years. They were pro-Taliban and in many ways helped the Taliban stay in power. There were hundreds of thousands of Taliban and Al-qaeda ... where did they all go?

They were flown out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan by Pakistani airplanes. That is a fact. Of course there are Taliban and al-qaeda members hiding in the towns in Afghanistan and hiding in the mountains and caves, but a lot of them are in Pakistan. The Pakistani ISI, which is Pakistan's version of the FBI and CIA rolled into one, knows where they are but does nothing to catch them. The ISI is infested with radical Islamists who have a certain ideology which is similar to that of OBL. The former ISI chief even saved OBL's life from the missle strike of Bill Clinton. And Bush made Pakistan a a major non-NATO ally.

Thank you Pakistan.

So, you're agreeing with me there. Ok. BTW, Al Qaeda and Taliban were flown out of Afghanistan with US assistance. Interesting, eh?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Well, just like your challenge to the OP concerning what his recommendations would be for the military commanders, I'm challenging your knowledge of the actual intel. Of course, what you've seen is probably about 1% of what's really going on. In other words, your actual knowledge of OBL and/or his operational capabilities is probably about nil.

Like I said before, the proof is in the pudding. You don't know any better than I do, so I base my opinion on observation.

Originally posted by: conjur
WTF are you talking about?? This has nothing to do with partisan politics. It has everything to do with foreign policy and the use of our military.

You support containment re: bin Laden who is known to be responsible for thousands of deaths and the destruction of the WTC and four airplanes and damage to the Pentagon. Yet you don't support containment of Saddam who never threatened the US...ever.

Yes, you're the consummate conservative who would NEVER be partisan. You're not fooling anyone. I doubt you ever have been. Give it up.

 

[conjur]

Give what up? You're losing it, Cyclo. You have yet to answer your contradictory stance.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: dahunan
$200,000,000,000 for Saddam *and his oil and land and PRIVATIZING and selling to US Corps his electricity, water, telephone etc...
and
$25,000,000 for Osama

hmmm

Quit trying to talk sense to the Bushites. They're confused enough already.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
No takers? You don't say??? Hmm...could it be because this administration has no clue as to the mentality, mindset, culture, etc. of the Middle East and SW Asia?


Naaaaahhhh


Besides, we all know that bin Laden is not of concern and has been marginalized. The Propagandist told us so.

Do you have any suggestions or advice for the military commanders organizing the hunt, since your expertise is obviously much greater than their own?

Despite ravaging 2 countries and spending billions of dollars we still don't have bin Laden. At this point I'd say anybodies ideas are as good as our military commanders.

He was the person responsible for the WTC, so let's raise the reward and just keep raising it. 25 million is chicken feed compared to what the war has cost in, not to mention the people who've lost ther lives and been maimed.

Exactly. The fact that we have been totally unable to capture the man who organized the worst terrorist attack in US history, even after all this time, does not speak very highly of the skills of our military commanders. Look at the resources being devoted to Iraq. What would happen if we transfered those resources to finding bin Laden? I'm not saying run around in tanks looking for him, but transfer the money spent on tanks in Iraq into human intelligence in the Middle East, special forces teams that are better equiped at finding and capturing him, etc, etc.

There is a point at which "it's hard work" is not a defense. We really should have captured by bin Laden by now, the reasons we didn't amount to excuses, not justifications. And I agree about the reward. Make it $1 billion. See if that doesn't bring him in.

$1 billion was exactly the figure I was thinking if we were really serious about getting bin Laden.

How about we give them Utah?

Utterly ridiculous statement. Let's just keep hemoraging cash and let the person who started it all get away. You a total cheesehead or what??

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
It's a little late to worry about harsh feeling now. If we don't bring bin Laden to justice then all the people who have died, died in vain. I thought you were all for privitization and mercenaries? Or are you just jerking my chain?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I favor privatization and mercenaries, as I have many objections to mercenaries (and I'm not sure what you mean by privatization if it's not the same as hiring mercenaries).

Those people are dead. "Dying in vain" is not really meaningful to say in this context. They didn't die for their own cause, so they can never achieve it. They died for someone else's cause. If we can prevent such a thing from happening again, then that is OUR cause. Those whose lives were lost serve as a reminder of this goal, if anything.

Most of them died to prevent Iraq from using all those WMD's, remember. The rest died to get Osama bin Laden and stop al Queda. Funny how you have such a selective memory.

We need to capture bin Laden and bring him to justice. Anything less then that is just spitting on the graves of the brave people who bave their lives. We can't seem to accomplish it so let's put a bounty on his head, a BIG bounty. His capture and trial would not only give justice to all the victims of the WTC disaster, but would send a signal that we finish what we start so you better think twice before you start ratteling your sabre at us.

 

[imported_Tango]

In my opinion to talk about politics making some sense one shall get rid of ALL his emotions, forgetting his nationality, his party of choice, his tax bracket. Otherwise we just end in this classical "you are anti-american! you are not a patriot! Saddam rape the country! Americans did Abu-ghraib!"... To me it becomes a quite void debate....

Osama Bin Laden beeing free DOES is a big failure for America in both a symbolical and factual way. Osama is in no way encircled and cut off his resources. If he were encircled you could just close the circle around him. Beeing he the one who knew 9/11 was coming and beeing a billionare resulted probably in a huge acquisition of put-options and c-warrants the weeks before the attacks, and considering the following performance of the financial markets he is now even richer than before, his assets well-kept in swiss banks. The fall of the taliban regime for sure didn't help him, but terrorism, for the definition itself of the term, doesn't need a phisical territory control to blossom.

From a simbolical point of view many Osama fans around the world are enjoying the show: this man openly attacked a world superpower and still is a free man. Plus, despite the 25 millions nobody of his enturage has betrayed him. And 25 millions in Afganistan are quite a lot of money.

Every researcher on terrorism conflict resultion will tell you that this is a war nobody can win. If a single man with an hand granade explodes in the Times Square subway station the results can be terrible. The media impact is much bigger than the killing of 100 terrorist wannabe in Afganistan. And you have no way to 100% prevent this kind of attacks. Terrorism is a damn effective form of combact because it is based not on the factual damages, but on the symbolic damages.
So the US should fight on the symbolic plane too, and catching Osama would be a good exploit. Abu-Ghraib was quite a symbolic backfire instead.
That's the main point: the US are trying to conduce a "war on terrorism" using the same weapons and mentality they would use against a state-like enemy. This will not work.
The solutions ARE out there, but require much more time and resources than just fighters and tanks.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
No takers? You don't say??? Hmm...could it be because this administration has no clue as to the mentality, mindset, culture, etc. of the Middle East and SW Asia?


Naaaaahhhh


Besides, we all know that bin Laden is not of concern and has been marginalized. The Propagandist told us so.

Do you have any suggestions or advice for the military commanders organizing the hunt, since your expertise is obviously much greater than their own?

Yeah, I do: Stop wasting resources attacking the wrong fvcking guy....
How's that for starters? Fairly simple I would think, even for someone like George Bush....

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
Uhh...yeah. What I've been saying all along.

We should have stayed out of Iraq and focused on Afghanistan/Pakistan.

Also, forcing Musharraf to start dealing with the political strife within his own country and root out the terrorists within his own borders. Stop appeasing the terrorists.

I see you have nothing to add as usual, though.

I just wanted to see what you would suggest. Since you clearly stated your disapproval of how our military experts are handling the situation, I knew you must have something. For myself, I don't care if we catch him or not. His little operation in Afghanistan was shut down, which was the real mission. If you think decomissioning him personally will have any effect on terrorism, then I would beg to differ.

So it was OK to attack the wrong guy for no fvcking reason, and equally OK or even desirable to let the real culprit of the 9/11 attacks get off scot free. Un. Believable.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: arsbanned

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: conjur
No takers? You don't say??? Hmm...could it be because this administration has no clue as to the mentality, mindset, culture, etc. of the Middle East and SW Asia?


Naaaaahhhh


Besides, we all know that bin Laden is not of concern and has been marginalized. The Propagandist told us so.

Do you have any suggestions or advice for the military commanders organizing the hunt, since your expertise is obviously much greater than their own?

Yeah, I do: Stop wasting resources attacking the wrong fvcking guy....
How's that for starters? Fairly simple I would think, even for someone like George Bush....

Which amazes me as why didn't John Kerry win... My god at least he can have coherent sentances!

 

[arsbanned]

Yeah, well, apparently here in Godland some don't value good sentence structure.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Yeah, well, apparently here in Godland some don't value good sentence structure.

Jesusland

🙂

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Well, just like your challenge to the OP concerning what his recommendations would be for the military commanders, I'm challenging your knowledge of the actual intel. Of course, what you've seen is probably about 1% of what's really going on. In other words, your actual knowledge of OBL and/or his operational capabilities is probably about nil.

Like I said before, the proof is in the pudding. You don't know any better than I do, so I base my opinion on observation.

At least I'm willing to admit that I (and probably even our own gov't) has no clue as to what OBL's plans and/or capabilities are. You on the other hand, seem to be convinced that he has been effectively neutralized. I think that to be on the safe side, we should assume he's still very, very dangerous. It's the only logical thing to do.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: conjur
Give what up? You're losing it, Cyclo. You have yet to answer your contradictory stance.

So now I'm not allowed to have a nuanced position? Hypocrite.

Why can't you answer my simple question? You've posted four times without adding anything. Is it really that hard to use your brain? Surely you haven't been waxing intellectual all this time when, in reality, you've simply been regurgitating talking points from the latest political book?

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
At least I'm willing to admit that I (and probably even our own gov't) has no clue as to what OBL's plans and/or capabilities are. You on the other hand, seem to be convinced that he has been effectively neutralized. I think that to be on the safe side, we should assume he's still very, very dangerous. It's the only logical thing to do.

You still haven't suggested what we should do with him if we were to catch him. I'm of the opinion that it's likely better that we just keep him holed up in nowheresville. You can have a different opinion, but mine isn't going to change until someone can present a good outcome of us actually catching the guy.

 

[judasmachine]

If I were Osama, I'd have one of my cronies turn me in, collect the reward, die a martyr, and use the money to blow stuff up inside america....