Where is the ACLU?

[Jhhnn]

Daniel Pipes... isn't just an Israeli shill, he's a shill for the Israeli rightwing. even Christopher Hitchens recognizes that-

http://www.slate.com/id/2086844/

The US suffers from a lack of foreign language speakers, particularly arabic speakers, making us ill equipped to deal directly with iintelligence from that part of the world. So we depend on the Israelis, which obviously has certain disadvantages-

http://www.informationclearing....info/article17197.htm

They'd very much like to maintain a monopoly on translation services for the US govt and media, whether that's through their own intelligence service or through front organizations like MEMRI...

Referencing the whole Sybil Edmonds imbroglio might be instructive, as well...

They have a saying for it in Italian- "Traduttore tradittore"...

 

[dmens]

Good for Daniel Pipes. Being pro-Israeli is far more indicative of sanity than being an arabist.

Moving beyond the baseless islamist slander against Daniel Pipes and MEMRI, the wahhabists have been using their oil money to fund their islamist propaganda and hatred through schools and mosques for years. If that taint has spread to the US, it must be closely watched. Daniel Pipes is just shining light on a problem the mainstream media would prefer to avoid due to political correctness.

 

[Jhhnn]

Daniel Pipes is just shining light on a problem the mainstream media would prefer to avoid due to political correctness.

Actually, Daniel Pipes typifies a problem the mainstream media would prefer to avoid due to political correctness, the political correctness of rabid Zionism and the dubious loyalties of its proponents.

http://www.motherjones.com/new...2003/05/we_420_01.html

http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html

He and Benny Elon are the darlings of the American far Right- opposing their brand of poison is to invite public ridicule as a jew-hater and holocaust denier... They're all about freedom of speech, just so long as you agree with them... accept the guilt trip they invoke- the oxymoron that the descendents of the oppressed have the right to practice their own version of oppression.

It's all about information control and manipulation. If the US develops their own ability to translate arabic, then the Israelis won't be able to hold us in thrall to their cause, such as it is- a slow motion version of lebensraum and ghettoization of their victims.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And, yes, this thread is pretty silly. Arabic is not the Middle Eastern equivalent of Christian, what the hell is wrong with you people?

For you guys who are a little slow...

Christian is to Muslim as French is to Arabic. The ACLU opposes Christian public schools, and would presumably oppose a Muslim public school as well. The ACLU does NOT oppose French public schools, and under the same principle would not oppose an Arabic school. Their position is perfectly consistent and reasonable, you people are just stupid.

What you call stupid I call motivational blindness. It is not that people lack intelligence that they think this way. It is that they use their intelligence to avoid recognizing they are motivated by a need to avoid their own self hate. People who are, in this case, pro Jewish, with all the fanatical extremism any form of religious or nationalistic fervor can imply, are that way because their nationalism or religion, with all its implied historical glory and goodness, have been substituted for the self love we were born with and forced to deny. Instead of the infinite goodness these people were born to by genetic destiny, they were told they were worthless as people and valuable only as conformistic drones of this or that artificial social construction. We have all sold our souls to be a part of something that we hold in the highest reverence and is actually the height of evil. Stripped of self dignity we cling desperately to these artificial islands of goodness we were told we would be loved if we joined. You can't call people stupid who are trying to save the only thing they can still cling to as a last bastion of self respect.

If you want people ever to drop their endless self identification with externals, you will certainly have to do something more than call them stupid. Everybody is a prisoner of unconscious motivations. The only way out is via intention to break those ties. The only way any will try is by first understanding how they were processed as children and sold such silly lies. They will maybe consider that only if you can offer them a real truth, such as the fact, not that they are stupid, but that they have done what they have done in order to survive and that if they let go of their illusions they will find, not infinite pain and suffering but the door to real peace and love.

 

[magomago]

Not withstanding the organization supporting this - Pipes writes an extremely biased argument that implies those who learn Arabic are just going to be "converts" for Islam, and that learning Arabic causes one to "mistrust" the West, or bla bla bla.

Have we thought about the moment that if these students can obtain a basic, rudimentary, and practical knowledge of spoken Arabic that they could perhaps read books or newspapers or engage in dialogue with others who speak Arabic which is how they start to learn about these ideas in the first place? Perhaps this is what we SHOULD be looking for, but many problems occur from groups that can't understand each other. Perhaps the "Arabs" actually have some valid points on Palestine that are written just in Arabic?

And in learning any language shouldn't topics pertaining to the speakers of that language be discussed? Do you think that in Chinese I just learn about colors, or the flowers, or why I like to swim (well I did )? Topics such as male favoritism , political questions, and some economic issues are dealt with because this is stuff that they actually talk about. Much in the same way I can easily see why topics pertaining to Palestine are discussed...because it has much relevance!

I looked through that book to see those topics, and much of that is actually relevant material. I like how some of you may get your panties in a bunch that some of the Chapters relate to "Women and Hijabs" , but Arabic is a language that is greatly affected and influenced by Islam. When speaking any language, you will learn the culture, and there are so many phrases and words that relate to God that to pretend they didn't exist is ridiculous. The same holds for students of a language like Chinese - there are phrases that come from Buddhism and when we learn the phrase they teach us where and how it came from..doesn't mean we got our panties in a bunch!

And finally - I really don't have an opinion right now~ I just defend the initial cries that this place is a "madrassa" and that learning arabic automatically causes one to be some extremist.

The approach I would prefer is to take a look at the past history of other schools similar to this. Where did they receive their funds, and how did it work such that one can make an accurate comparison. If this situation is entirely out of line for a secondary-language school, then I don't see why an exception should be granted to it. But if there are many unique situations, or this falls into one of many other similar situations, I don't see the point of going so crazy.

As far as I understand , this is a school that is going to teach Arabic (nowhere did it say this school was going to be a religious one - although I would carefully monitor it considering a religious organization is supporting it) and the OP cries out that the ACLU would only come out if they happened to be "Christians"....Well, the day the school becomes a Muslim school we can discuss that

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: magomago

The approach I would prefer is to take a look at the past history of other schools similar to this. Where did they receive their funds, and how did it work such that one can make an accurate comparison. If this situation is entirely out of line for a secondary-language school, then I don't see why an exception should be granted to it. But if there are many unique situations, or this falls into one of many other similar situations, I don't see the point of going so crazy.

As far as I understand , this is a school that is going to teach Arabic (nowhere did it say this school was going to be a religious one - although I would carefully monitor it considering a religious organization is supporting it) and the OP cries out that the ACLU would only come out if they happened to be "Christians"....Well, the day the school becomes a Muslim school we can discuss that

Most sensible way to approach this so far.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Actually, Daniel Pipes typifies a problem the mainstream media would prefer to avoid due to political correctness, the political correctness of rabid Zionism and the dubious loyalties of its proponents.

http://www.motherjones.com/new...2003/05/we_420_01.html

http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html

He and Benny Elon are the darlings of the American far Right- opposing their brand of poison is to invite public ridicule as a jew-hater and holocaust denier... They're all about freedom of speech, just so long as you agree with them... accept the guilt trip they invoke- the oxymoron that the descendents of the oppressed have the right to practice their own version of oppression.

It's all about information control and manipulation. If the US develops their own ability to translate arabic, then the Israelis won't be able to hold us in thrall to their cause, such as it is- a slow motion version of lebensraum and ghettoization of their victims.

The mainstream media avoids Daniel Pipes because of the overused islamophobia tag, which pro-terror organizations like CAIR (which you linked to) use as a sledgehammer to bludgeon all criticism. The media also regularly praises CAIR as some sort of civil rights beacon for muslims, which is absurd. Their membership has plummeted since 9/11, despite increased funding from foreign sources.

Your accusation regarding Israeli translations stinks of anti-semitism, you talk like a country of 300 million and full of immigrants can't dig up some arabic translators. I wonder if you advocate the monitoring of Jewish-Americans providing translation services to government agencies.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Daniel Pipes is just shining light on a problem the mainstream media would prefer to avoid due to political correctness.

Actually, Daniel Pipes typifies a problem the mainstream media would prefer to avoid due to political correctness, the political correctness of rabid Zionism and the dubious loyalties of its proponents.

http://www.motherjones.com/new...2003/05/we_420_01.html

http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html

He and Benny Elon are the darlings of the American far Right- opposing their brand of poison is to invite public ridicule as a jew-hater and holocaust denier... They're all about freedom of speech, just so long as you agree with them... accept the guilt trip they invoke- the oxymoron that the descendents of the oppressed have the right to practice their own version of oppression.

It's all about information control and manipulation. If the US develops their own ability to translate arabic, then the Israelis won't be able to hold us in thrall to their cause, such as it is- a slow motion version of lebensraum and ghettoization of their victims.

You my friend have dived off the deep end......

I totally agree with this statement by dmens--
"Your accusation regarding Israeli translations stinks of anti-semitism, you talk like a country of 300 million and full of immigrants can't dig up some arabic translators. I wonder if you advocate the monitoring of Jewish-Americans providing translation services to government agencies. "

Shalom!!!

 

[Jhhnn]

See- when the facts don't match the propaganda, then the "anti-semite" card comes out. It's the last resort of the argumentatively crippled, the all purpose tarbrush shamelessly applied to anybody who disagrees.

There's a big difference between being opposed to the policies of the govt of Israel and being an anti-semite, which, of course, zionists seek to obfuscate with the whole song and dance routine... Daniel Pipes being an expert in that regard.

For a comedic take on translations, reference "Ace Ventura When Nature Calls"... Ace says he comes in peace, so the translator tells the tribe that he's come to kill them...

Given that Israeli and American interests are not precisely "the same", it seems that the smartest course for America is to encourage study of Arabic, and of many other languages, as well. We don't want to depend on others whose agenda might be suspect, and whose past performance gives rise to well founded suspicions, an example of which I linked above...

Pipes has his reasons for opposing such efforts, of course, none of which are benign, at all. Information is power, and having an exclusive on translation is an extreme form of information control...

 

[dmens]

You fail to provide any proof that Israel has a monopoly on arabic translation for the US government, and given the US population and ethnic makeup, that claim is also statistically extremely unlikely.

In this case, your absurd accusations don't match reality and facts, so perhaps the anti-semitic label might be justified after all. Your given justification regarding Israeli translations is pretty much crap, so what other reason do you have for the US to treat their translations with suspicion?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And, yes, this thread is pretty silly. Arabic is not the Middle Eastern equivalent of Christian, what the hell is wrong with you people?

For you guys who are a little slow...

Christian is to Muslim as French is to Arabic. The ACLU opposes Christian public schools, and would presumably oppose a Muslim public school as well. The ACLU does NOT oppose French public schools, and under the same principle would not oppose an Arabic school. Their position is perfectly consistent and reasonable, you people are just stupid.

What you call stupid I call motivational blindness. It is not that people lack intelligence that they think this way. It is that they use their intelligence to avoid recognizing they are motivated by a need to avoid their own self hate. People who are, in this case, pro Jewish, with all the fanatical extremism any form of religious or nationalistic fervor can imply, are that way because their nationalism or religion, with all its implied historical glory and goodness, have been substituted for the self love we were born with and forced to deny. Instead of the infinite goodness these people were born to by genetic destiny, they were told they were worthless as people and valuable only as conformistic drones of this or that artificial social construction. We have all sold our souls to be a part of something that we hold in the highest reverence and is actually the height of evil. Stripped of self dignity we cling desperately to these artificial islands of goodness we were told we would be loved if we joined. You can't call people stupid who are trying to save the only thing they can still cling to as a last bastion of self respect.

If you want people ever to drop their endless self identification with externals, you will certainly have to do something more than call them stupid. Everybody is a prisoner of unconscious motivations. The only way out is via intention to break those ties. The only way any will try is by first understanding how they were processed as children and sold such silly lies. They will maybe consider that only if you can offer them a real truth, such as the fact, not that they are stupid, but that they have done what they have done in order to survive and that if they let go of their illusions they will find, not infinite pain and suffering but the door to real peace and love.

I see what you're saying, but I maintain that lack of intelligence is still the problem. Fanatical belief in favor or against any broadly abstract idea is stupid, under all circumstances, because the real world is not so black and white. This very thread has people using Arab, Islam and radical terrorist as interchangeable ideas. Perhaps they do so because of an overriding belief in something else, rather than because they are too stupid to understand the difference between those groups, but I'd still say holding that belief smacks of willful ignorance.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
"I don't recognize the people who committed the attacks as either Arabs or Muslims." Instead, she blames September 11 on Washington's foreign policies, saying they "can have been triggered by the way the USA breaks its promises with countries across the world, especially in the Middle East, and the fact that it has not been a fair mediator."

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, she's right.

*GASP!*

Our misguided foreign policies have had miserable unintended consequences such as fostering terrorism and hatred of the US. The CIA term for this is "blowback". Let me bring some wonderful historical examples:

We supported Saddam Hussein in the 80s and gave him weapons and $$$ to fight Iran. We then promptly betrayed him and eventually declared him our enemy. We recently executed him in a great "victory" for democracy.

We supported Osama bin Laden and other mujahadeen with weapons and $$$ to fight the Soviets. We then promptly abandoned them to their fates and eventually turned on them. Yes, this is the same bin Laden who is (or was, now that Bush ignored him) one of our arch-enemies.

Take off your tinfoil hats, stop sipping that Kool-Aid, and don't eat the crap spoon-fed to you (news media). Do your own DD (due diligence) and research. Know the truth, and it shall set you free.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And, yes, this thread is pretty silly. Arabic is not the Middle Eastern equivalent of Christian, what the hell is wrong with you people?

For you guys who are a little slow...

Christian is to Muslim as French is to Arabic. The ACLU opposes Christian public schools, and would presumably oppose a Muslim public school as well. The ACLU does NOT oppose French public schools, and under the same principle would not oppose an Arabic school. Their position is perfectly consistent and reasonable, you people are just stupid.

What you call stupid I call motivational blindness. It is not that people lack intelligence that they think this way. It is that they use their intelligence to avoid recognizing they are motivated by a need to avoid their own self hate. People who are, in this case, pro Jewish, with all the fanatical extremism any form of religious or nationalistic fervor can imply, are that way because their nationalism or religion, with all its implied historical glory and goodness, have been substituted for the self love we were born with and forced to deny. Instead of the infinite goodness these people were born to by genetic destiny, they were told they were worthless as people and valuable only as conformistic drones of this or that artificial social construction. We have all sold our souls to be a part of something that we hold in the highest reverence and is actually the height of evil. Stripped of self dignity we cling desperately to these artificial islands of goodness we were told we would be loved if we joined. You can't call people stupid who are trying to save the only thing they can still cling to as a last bastion of self respect.

If you want people ever to drop their endless self identification with externals, you will certainly have to do something more than call them stupid. Everybody is a prisoner of unconscious motivations. The only way out is via intention to break those ties. The only way any will try is by first understanding how they were processed as children and sold such silly lies. They will maybe consider that only if you can offer them a real truth, such as the fact, not that they are stupid, but that they have done what they have done in order to survive and that if they let go of their illusions they will find, not infinite pain and suffering but the door to real peace and love.

I see what you're saying, but I maintain that lack of intelligence is still the problem. Fanatical belief in favor or against any broadly abstract idea is stupid, under all circumstances, because the real world is not so black and white. This very thread has people using Arab, Islam and radical terrorist as interchangeable ideas. Perhaps they do so because of an overriding belief in something else, rather than because they are too stupid to understand the difference between those groups, but I'd still say holding that belief smacks of willful ignorance.

Well, I say 'willful' is actually unconscious motivation and, while it is controlling it is not willed. It is unconsciously willed. The difference, of course, is that where you can assign blame, I cannot. I can only struggle to see if similar things control me.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: magomago

The approach I would prefer is to take a look at the past history of other schools similar to this. Where did they receive their funds, and how did it work such that one can make an accurate comparison. If this situation is entirely out of line for a secondary-language school, then I don't see why an exception should be granted to it. But if there are many unique situations, or this falls into one of many other similar situations, I don't see the point of going so crazy.

As far as I understand , this is a school that is going to teach Arabic (nowhere did it say this school was going to be a religious one - although I would carefully monitor it considering a religious organization is supporting it) and the OP cries out that the ACLU would only come out if they happened to be "Christians"....Well, the day the school becomes a Muslim school we can discuss that

Most sensible way to approach this so far.

Being sensible doesn't take you very far...it seems one has to take an extreme position and push it in order to get attention from both sides.
To think how much more smooth life and society could be if people were sensible about things.

 

[Thump553]

Original poster: The ACLU is a VOLUNTEER organization dedicated to defense of our liberties guaranteed to us by the US Constitution, the bulwark of US government. If you don't like what the ACLU does, you are free to join or support some other organization more akin to your views. To me the title of this thread is nothing more than a baiting, misdirected and misguided slam at an organization that has many positive attributes. It is also a completely irrelevant statement to make.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Come September, an Arabic-language public secondary school is slated to open its doors in Brooklyn. The New York City Department of Education says the Khalil Gibran International Academy, serving grades six through 12, will boast a "multicultural curriculum and intensive Arabic language instruction."


Read the article, your tax dollars will fund a school which is Arabic language oriented by people who aren't exactly friendly to the same people paying taxes.

Ah someone who has never been to Dearborn, Michigan before. What does your Christian and Arabic rant have to do with anything? You do realize that Arabic is not a religion, right and that many Arabs are Christians? Ah nvm.