Where do you stand on alternative energy

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I really think we need to agressively research and implement some (many) forms of renewable energy, and I was trying to think of the best way to get that ingrained into our society and have it be the norm rather than the exception.
One way I was thinking of doing this was having the military implement it. Our society has benefited from military developments throughout history, from velcro to the GPS in our cars, dashboards, hell, even the pockets of our hunters, cyclists, etc.
The other way I was thinking, would be to make it as a special interest at the college level, giving colleges some sort of financial benefit for implementing this type of academia.

The bottom line is, oil is a finite resource, and is an environmental detriment, as well as not really being a native resource either. We will need to obtain oil from countries other than ourself and allies.
Which pushes this onto the national defense issue. The more energy independent we are, the safer we are as a nation. I never really thought about it as deeply before last nights debate, feel free to call me naive, or shallow, but I didn't think of it that way and now I do.
I was always looking at it from an environmental standpoint, but there are many, many layers to it and really only beneficial outcomes.
It could be the silicon valley for the 21st century. My question is not whether or not we should be energy independent, and utilize clean, renewable resources, but how to make it common place, make it the norm, not the exception.
Energy independence is only beneficial. It may be a long road to it, but I think if we put the right minds on it, it make shorten that road and bring back a vitality to this country we haven't seen for decades.

 

[TheSlamma]

I would love to see what 10 Billion a month would do for renewable energy research and infrastructure instead of a worthless Muslim kill fest war all the Christians support. I had really hoped Honda's mass produced Hydrogen car would send the signal the tech is there now lets get going on the infrastructure.

 

[Genx87]

I think all options are on the table. i also believe none of these renewable sources will be competitive enough to replace oil until oil is much much much higher in price than what we saw last summer. The govt can only push so hard. If it isnt ready for a market, it isnt ready. They have been subsidizing corn ethanol for decades and even today it fails to approach the cost of gasoline when gasoline hit its highest price point in this history of this country.

And energy independence is a national security issue. I have been saying this for months.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't know what the ROI of military vs private is. I think top military are paid less than private contractors to be sure, but at the same time they are specifically looking for things to advance war, an ancillary benefit being whatever civilians get.

I don't know how to reconcile the fact that if large amounts of money are a good idea somebody privately would already be doing it (I mean gargantuan amounts), but I think the nation needs to do something and I would happily pay extra taxes if I knew the money was going to something that will find its way into our homes.

I am against the money sent to moribund companies like GM, which is building the Volt, but sent to companies that are not digging their graves may realize some benefits for us.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Genx87
And energy independence is a national security issue. I have been saying this for months.

A major one, which somewhat supports the argument for the government doing what private entities don't see a cost benefit to doing, because it's hard to quantify energy independence from a national security standpoint.

Malaise is already enveloping us and as oil continues to plummet it will envelope us more. Public support will wane for government to "do something" in this matter, I'm afraid.

 

[andy04]

The point that McCain made yesterday and you are making here is ok but its already going on, maybe we need to put more resources into it. The govt backed project in past invented great things but the govt have money at that time, right now we are giving it away to Iraq to buy temporary peace till the election, I dont think govt backed porjects can suceed today.
Second point, alternative energy is awsome but their heat index/efficiency sucks to the point that the current technologies will take HUGE initial investments for camparatively low return. We need to drill and build more luncear plants so that we dont have to import as much. Oil is the fuel with the highest heat index and will be required not matter what so lets start builing nuke and start drilling, in the meanwhile we can keep researching alternates...
Third, we are not in a position to think about the environment anymore, we have lost that luxary. We care about the env so much that we owe 500 bil to china who does not give a rat's ass about the env. Our industries are under immense pressure to reduce emission and now they will face higher taxes soon. We will loose more jobs if we keep caring about the env.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Genx87
And energy independence is a national security issue. I have been saying this for months.

A major one, which somewhat supports the argument for the government doing what private entities don't see a cost benefit to doing, because it's hard to quantify energy independence from a national security standpoint.

Malaise is already enveloping us and as oil continues to plummet it will envelope us more. Public support will wane for government to "do something" in this matter, I'm afraid.

While I agree with you the govt has some role in promoting and developing the technology. I question whether the govt will truely get it done. We have allowed the govt to promote what it deems as renewable sources of the energy in Wind, Solar, and Corn Ethanol. Are any of the above really competitive in their respective markets? Solar and Wind are getting by due to govt mandates on clear energy. Not because the market feels they are competitive sources of energy. Corn Ethanol requires a federal subsidy of about 40-60 cents a gallon to be within a stones throw of oil based gasoline. And Corn ethanol is terrible, just terrible compared to other forms of ethanol.

The people who make out in the above situation are the firms who send lobbyists to washington to get those grants from the govt for R&D with what appears to be limited return on investment.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Whatever happens, I want people to quit this "you won't see any benefits for ten years" nonsense.

Look, I KNOW you won't see any benefits for ten years. But so what? If we put it off ten years, then we won't have any benefits for 20 years. Start the ball rolling NOW before it's too late (arguably, it's already too late) and quit thinking only in 4- and 8-year stretches.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: andy04
snip....
Third, we are not in a position to think about the environment anymore, we have lost that luxary. We care about the env so much that we owe 500 bil to china who does not give a rat's ass about the env. Our industries are under immense pressure to reduce emission and now they will face higher taxes soon. We will loose more jobs if we keep caring about the env.

We are never in a position where we shouldn't consider the environment at every turn. The world is not ours to deplete and do with what we want. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The earth may react slowly to the damage done to it, but it will react, and trust me, the world will win. We are nothing more than a flea on an elephant. The earth will shrug us off without a blink of an eye.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think all options are on the table. i also believe none of these renewable sources will be competitive enough to replace oil until oil is much much much higher in price than what we saw last summer. The govt can only push so hard. If it isnt ready for a market, it isnt ready. They have been subsidizing corn ethanol for decades and even today it fails to approach the cost of gasoline when gasoline hit its highest price point in this history of this country.

And energy independence is a national security issue. I have been saying this for months.

Energy independence and 'green' energy are 2 different things. The former is a good thing; the latter is worthless.

If 'green' energy is useful, let the Europeans develop it.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Whatever happens, I want people to quit this "you won't see any benefits for ten years" nonsense.

Look, I KNOW you won't see any benefits for ten years. But so what? If we put it off ten years, then we won't have any benefits for 20 years. Start the ball rolling NOW before it's too late (arguably, it's already too late) and quit thinking only in 4- and 8-year stretches.

BINGO! Why bother now?? It's too late... it won't show any results for years. How long does it take for the Mars rover to land? Do they put it off because it will take too long? Or the orbiter that took 'close-up' pictures of Saturn?
The sooner we start, the better off we will be.

 

[trance247]

Cmon people there is so much available and if you look into UK and Netherlands they have wind energy mills EVERYWHERE, I know both are small countries but I don't see how smaller seaside states such as RI, MA cant convert into using tide energy and wind as well as solar. My friend sells solar panel solutions and even though you will most likely need loan or 2nd mortgage but rebates and tax incentives as well as posibility of going off the grid is worth while.

We spend 500bil on military, big chunk of that is being used to develop portable efficient fuel cells for equipement and vehicles, I am pretty sure they already have stuff that us consumers will most likely see in a decade...

All things considered this has to be worldwide effort and it is possible to slowly but surely leave oil...

 

[andy04]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti

Originally posted by: andy04
snip....
Third, we are not in a position to think about the environment anymore, we have lost that luxary. We care about the env so much that we owe 500 bil to china who does not give a rat's ass about the env. Our industries are under immense pressure to reduce emission and now they will face higher taxes soon. We will loose more jobs if we keep caring about the env.

We are never in a position where we shouldn't consider the environment at every turn. The world is not ours to deplete and do with what we want. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The earth may react slowly to the damage done to it, but it will react, and trust me, the world will win. We are nothing more than a flea on an elephant. The earth will shrug us off without a blink of an eye.

Agreed, but then lets change our habits and lets comsume less or consume only porducts made in USA. Otherwise the "environment friendly" discussion is a waste of time. We shut down factories here and then produce the same thing in China with twice as much emission. If we keep doing that then we loose at both ends. Lets get china to follow the same emission standards as ours, lets get down to their level and then go up togather!

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: andy04

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti

Originally posted by: andy04
snip....
Third, we are not in a position to think about the environment anymore, we have lost that luxary. We care about the env so much that we owe 500 bil to china who does not give a rat's ass about the env. Our industries are under immense pressure to reduce emission and now they will face higher taxes soon. We will loose more jobs if we keep caring about the env.

We are never in a position where we shouldn't consider the environment at every turn. The world is not ours to deplete and do with what we want. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The earth may react slowly to the damage done to it, but it will react, and trust me, the world will win. We are nothing more than a flea on an elephant. The earth will shrug us off without a blink of an eye.

Agreed, but then lets change our habits and lets comsume less or consume only porducts made in USA. Otherwise the "environment friendly" discussion is a waste of time. We shut down factories here and then produce the same thing in China with twice as much emission. If we keep doing that then we loose at both ends. Lets get china to follow the same emission standards as ours, lets get down to their level and then go up togather!

OR
We could lead by example and have others follow. Isn't that exactly what China is doing now? Being the productive USA of the 1940's, 50's and 60's??

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think all options are on the table. i also believe none of these renewable sources will be competitive enough to replace oil until oil is much much much higher in price than what we saw last summer. The govt can only push so hard. If it isnt ready for a market, it isnt ready. They have been subsidizing corn ethanol for decades and even today it fails to approach the cost of gasoline when gasoline hit its highest price point in this history of this country.

And energy independence is a national security issue. I have been saying this for months.

Energy independence and 'green' energy are 2 different things. The former is a good thing; the latter is worthless.

If 'green' energy is useful, let the Europeans develop it.

What a mind-bogglingly vapid statement.

 

[andy04]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti

Originally posted by: andy04

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti

Originally posted by: andy04
snip....
Third, we are not in a position to think about the environment anymore, we have lost that luxary. We care about the env so much that we owe 500 bil to china who does not give a rat's ass about the env. Our industries are under immense pressure to reduce emission and now they will face higher taxes soon. We will loose more jobs if we keep caring about the env.

We are never in a position where we shouldn't consider the environment at every turn. The world is not ours to deplete and do with what we want. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The earth may react slowly to the damage done to it, but it will react, and trust me, the world will win. We are nothing more than a flea on an elephant. The earth will shrug us off without a blink of an eye.

Agreed, but then lets change our habits and lets comsume less or consume only porducts made in USA. Otherwise the "environment friendly" discussion is a waste of time. We shut down factories here and then produce the same thing in China with twice as much emission. If we keep doing that then we loose at both ends. Lets get china to follow the same emission standards as ours, lets get down to their level and then go up togather!

OR
We could lead by example and have others follow. Isn't that exactly what China is doing now? Being the productive USA of the 1940's, 50's and 60's??

Well not exactly, those people dont enjoy the fruit of their labor only the big business houses do, the improvement in their living standard is very small. Neither do they produce for their own people they just export. The point is that their govt controls everything and that govt has zero willingness to "follow" any example which reduced their profit margin.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
I would love to see what 10 Billion a month would do for renewable energy research and infrastructure instead of a worthless Muslim kill fest war all the Christians support. I had really hoped Honda's mass produced Hydrogen car would send the signal the tech is there now lets get going on the infrastructure.

My guess is it would make a lot of "green energy" executives rich without bringing much more added value to the status quo.

You can pump all the money you want, but you will reach a bottleneck and marginal contribution of funds just goes to pay bonuses.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think all options are on the table. i also believe none of these renewable sources will be competitive enough to replace oil until oil is much much much higher in price than what we saw last summer. The govt can only push so hard. If it isnt ready for a market, it isnt ready. They have been subsidizing corn ethanol for decades and even today it fails to approach the cost of gasoline when gasoline hit its highest price point in this history of this country.

And energy independence is a national security issue. I have been saying this for months.

Energy independence and 'green' energy are 2 different things. The former is a good thing; the latter is worthless.

If 'green' energy is useful, let the Europeans develop it.

The problem with your argument is that when (not if) alternative energy is fully developed, it WILL be useful. As in "Next Big Thing" useful. And in which case, the Euros will have it and we won't.

 

[palehorse]

I really think McCain dropped the ball on the "Manhattan-like Project" question last night. He should have answered with one simple word, "YES!" Nut, alas, he just rambled on about R&D bullshit and turning each development over to private industry... blah blah.

IMO, a project of that magnitude, and focus, is exactly what we need to solve the energy crisis.

Take 100 of the smartest scientists on the planet, place them in a facility up in the hills, and tell them that they shouldn't come out until they've solved the f'n problem and invented a viable source of alternative energy. Pay them big bucks and treat them like all-stars. But, don't settle for anything less than a real solution!

We should have started such a project yesterday... bah...

 

[MikeyLSU]

it needs to be heavily researched by the private sector as it is now. I would not mind a little more government incentive. Maybe 1 billion for the first mass produced electric car, or hydrogen car.
I don't know.

But I can tell you that Al Gore is making this process last longer IMO. So many people are turned off by his whole save the earth go green campaign that some are equating energy independence with going green.

They are very different things, we should not do it to try to save the earth. We should do it to save our money and country. When that point is pressed upon instead of by tree huggers, it will be taken more seriously.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: palehorse
I really think McCain dropped the ball on the "Manhattan-like Project" question last night. He should have answered with one simple word, "YES!" Nut, alas, he just rambled on about R&D bullshit and turning each development over to private industry... blah blah.

IMO, a project of that magnitude, and focus, is exactly what we need to solve the energy crisis.

Take 100 of the smartest scientists on the planet, place them in a facility up in the hills, and tell them that they shouldn't come out until they've solved the f'n problem and invented a viable source of alternative energy. Pay them big bucks and treat them like all-stars. But, don't settle for anything less than a real solution!

We should have started such a project yesterday... bah...

lol isn't that how it works now? except with VC money vs govt money? honestly i don't feel like pumping "$10 billion" to a manhattan project will do any good. all the talent works in private industry and are currently doing it now.

 

[heyheybooboo]

We need tax credits.

Tax credits for 'green energy' manufacturers to invest capital and expand production for everything from solar panels to super-efficient HVAC and water heaters to vehicles which get more than 20 mpg. We need tax credits for electrical load management and investment in grid infrastructure that does not reward energy speculators and manipulators.

And tax credits for homeowners who embrace new tech and energy efficiency. The tax code needs to reward the frugal use of energy and penalize the energy hawgs.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
I would love to see what 10 Billion a month would do for renewable energy research and infrastructure instead of a worthless Muslim kill fest war all the Christians support. I had really hoped Honda's mass produced Hydrogen car would send the signal the tech is there now lets get going on the infrastructure.

My guess is it would make a lot of "green energy" executives rich without bringing much more added value to the status quo.

You can pump all the money you want, but you will reach a bottleneck and marginal contribution of funds just goes to pay bonuses.

It always feels so weird when I agree with you on something.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
I would love to see what 10 Billion a month would do for renewable energy research and infrastructure instead of a worthless Muslim kill fest war all the Christians support. I had really hoped Honda's mass produced Hydrogen car would send the signal the tech is there now lets get going on the infrastructure.

My guess is it would make a lot of "green energy" executives rich without bringing much more added value to the status quo.

You can pump all the money you want, but you will reach a bottleneck and marginal contribution of funds just goes to pay bonuses.

It always feels so weird when I agree with you on something.

*shudder*

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: palehorse
I really think McCain dropped the ball on the "Manhattan-like Project" question last night. He should have answered with one simple word, "YES!" Nut, alas, he just rambled on about R&D bullshit and turning each development over to private industry... blah blah.

IMO, a project of that magnitude, and focus, is exactly what we need to solve the energy crisis.

Take 100 of the smartest scientists on the planet, place them in a facility up in the hills, and tell them that they shouldn't come out until they've solved the f'n problem and invented a viable source of alternative energy. Pay them big bucks and treat them like all-stars. But, don't settle for anything less than a real solution!

We should have started such a project yesterday... bah...

Yes!

What is so frustrating is that we have all this massive push for drilling. You know what? I honestly DO NOT CARE if we drill or not. I really dont. What I do care is if America finds the next piece of technology that it can be a world leader in. I think alternative/cleaner technology is just that.

When the Chinese start killing their population with the massive amounts of polution they produce, they will gladly spend some of the 2 Trillion Dollars in cash they are sitting on for our clean energy. And guess what? We will make money off of that!